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Some salutary advice on dense brushes

Have seen a few posts recently from members having issues with denser brushes, and specifically one on the front page re. the Simpsons Chubby.

For the last year or so I have used, to the exclusion of all else, a Chubby 1 and a Duke 2, both in Best. I have, during this time, interspersed use of brushes, badger and boar, described as 'dense', 'scrubby' etc etc. They have all disappointed me, and I realise I've found the brushes with the specs I love, and all other brushes I buy now are just for fun.

These dense brushes provide a unique sensory experience, but also, at least for me, make a better lather, and make it more readily. It must, however, be noted that using such a brush does indeed present some challenges, and as has been noted in the past, a 'Chubby dense' brush really is a unique and new experience, quite different from using a more loosely packed brush.

The first piece of advice you often get, when struggling with a new dense brush, is to 'use more product' - I disagree with this. The lather we shave with is just soap+water+air in a certain ratio, depending on our personal preferences - don't get hung up too much on completely filling every square millimetre of your brush/bowl with creamy lather - as long as the stuff on your face is good thats all that matters.

Use the same amount of product you usually do, but be aware it may look a little different here. A damp Chubby, with almost all the water shaken out of it, will still hold way more moisture than most 'average density' brushes. If we use the 'wetness' of our old brushes as a guage to how we use our denser ones, and leave it with some excess water still dipping when we begin to lather, we will indeed need to load and load more and more product, as there is just so much water contained in there that it needs several minutes loading to produce anything resembling lather.

When using my DUKE 2 with, say, GFT soaps, I will run the brush under the tap for ten seconds, let it drip, shake until all excess water is lost, swirl on the puck 40-50 times, and then lather on my face. No water is added from this point on. When using say, Cella, I will swirl a similarly damp brush 20-30 times and then face lather, perhaps slightly re-wetting the tips again at some point - some soaps are thirstier, of course, and Cella seems one of them.

The last point I'd make, which is actually about the beginning of the process, is that the tips of the brush load a good amount of soap from a puck without too much encouragement; you don't have to press down excessively. This is another mistake I initially made - like using too much water, I tended to think I had to compensate for the brush's muscularity by doing everything more - more water, more product, more pressure. But you don't. Just use gentle pressure - less than with other brushes, a more modest approach to loading the brush, and then enjoy the sensory overload of squishing that brush on your face and feeling it push back at you, while creating lather almost instantly. I know, not the conventional advice, but this is how I have gotten the best from these dense, scrubby-soft brushes, and can't see myself ever really using anything else :thumbup1:



~Adam
 
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I do agree that one of the big adjustments to make when switching brushes is how much water they can hold. Practice and repetition will teach you about that. A good idea for some people might be to get in the habit of squeezing the water out of the brush. That way you'll start with pretty much the same baseline no matter which brush you use.
 
My main problem with large dense brushes is that they don't provide very much "flow-through." I usually just get one decent pass out of them without issue, and then have to go back to the bowl to coerce the rest of the lather out. Personally, I believe "flow-through" is the most underrated aspect of shaving brushes.

Thanks for the write up. It'll probably be helpful for people, and it will probably help drum up some discussion about dense brushes.
 
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Adam, thanks for your thoughts. :thumbup1: There's been a bit of a learning curve with face-lathering my Duke 3 -- I've never had such a huge, dense brush to work with. As it breaks in I'm hoping to see it give up its lather more willingly. I know the final product I have in mind, but I'm having to expend a good bit of effort getting there. I can definitely relate to your observations about wanting to muscle as much product in there as possible. I'm definitely not underloading it. :lol: Maybe I'll load it less as you suggest and see where that takes me.
 
Thanks for this. I have just got a Chub 1 and have been taken aback by the sheer density of it; it's like you need to rethink how to use a brush when wielding this.

I've only used it a couple of times, but even squeezed there is plenty of water in this. Unfortunately it's distributed throught the brush, so loading takes a different technique. I'm going to try dropping some water on the soap, so there's moisture at the tips otherwise it feels like a dry brush is trying to lift off soap and nothing really gets going.

No such issues with boars or the far less dense Berkeley, which need a decent shake and gives instant loading feedback. Apart from that, getting lather made takes a bit longer, purely because of the density at work.

But I'd agree, more product is the last thing you need with a brush like this, unless you're planning on a full body shave. It seems to me better water management is the thing to work on. This is something that may need adjusting from product to product more carefully than other brushes.

Any further tips on Chubby use are welcome - my first impressions are that this is far too much brush to be user friendly. I never had any such reservations when I got a Rooney silvertip (which I now find way too big) although it's nowhere near as packed as a Chubby.
 
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Personally, I believe "flow-through" is the most underrated aspect of shaving brushes.
.

+1.

I don't currently own any ultra-dense brushes for this very reason. I also found them harder to use and also harder on the face.

I like medium density, medium backbone. Some good brushes for this are the Savile Rows and the NF two-band brushes.

Lather is applied very easily and evenly and they still feel great on the face, without feeling like you're getting carpet burns.

John
 

captp

Pretty Pink Fairy Princess.
Have seen a few posts recently from members having issues with denser brushes, and specifically one on the front page re. the Simpsons Chubby.

The first piece of advice you often get, when struggling with a new dense brush, is to 'use more product' - I disagree with this. The lather we shave with is just soap+water+air in a certain ratio, depending on our personal preferences - don't get hung up too much on completely filling every square millimetre of your brush/bowl with creamy lather - as long as the stuff on your face is good thats all that matters.

Use the same amount of product you usually do, but be aware it may look a little different here.

~Adam

Thanks, totally agree; I'm getting a new denser brush in a day or so and your write-up should help me. I remember an earlier post by someone who was 'complaining' (not sure if that's the right word, maybe just commenting) that his new, denser brush didn't look right compared to his old one when loaded; he said he was getting plenty of lather on his face for the shave, but thought he should load more soap to get it to look the same.


My main problem with large dense brushes is that they don't provide very much "flow-through." I usually just get one decent pass out of them without issue, and then have to go back to the bowl to coerce the rest of the lather out. Personally, I believe "flow-through" is the most underrated aspect of shaving brushes.

Can you define what you mean by "flow-through"? I hear the term used a lot here and don't understand it.
 
+1.

I don't currently own any ultra-dense brushes for this very reason. I also found them harder to use and also harder on the face.

I like medium density, medium backbone. Some good brushes for this are the Savile Rows and the NF two-band brushes.

Lather is applied very easily and evenly and they still feel great on the face, without feeling like you're getting carpet burns.

John

I don't own a lot of brushes. Just a Simpson Duke 2 and a Simpson Special. I guess the Duke 2 is considered a dense brush. However, I have never had this experience of feeling like I am getting carpet burns on my face when using it. Nor have I found it detrimental to my face. But of course YMMV.

I also would like some more explanation what is meant by "flow through", thanks!

Also, I definitely agree with Ignatius' original post. With my Duke 2, if it has too much water in it then I will have to load a lot of soap. But if I squeeze as much water as I can out or don't let it get as much water initially then I can get a great lather without a ton of loading.
 
Can you define what you mean by "flow-through"? I hear the term used a lot here and don't understand it.

Flow through, as I understand it, is the ease with which the water mixes with the soap to work up lather and distribute to the tips of the brush. Simply put, it's how easily a brush gives up lather as you work it on the face, instead of holding it within the brush.

By definition, very dense brushes will probably hog lather more than lesser dense ones. The common advice is to use more product, but that won't necessarily make the lather move easier, it just creates more lather. And dense brushes can take a lot.


I don't own a lot of brushes. Just a Simpson Duke 2 and a Simpson Special. I guess the Duke 2 is considered a dense brush. However, I have never had this experience of feeling like I am getting carpet burns on my face when using it. Nor have I found it detrimental to my face. But of course YMMV.
I got something similar to carpet burn trying out this Chubby this evening. I did a few practice lathers with a couple of soaps and lathered it up. My face needed some AS on it, applying it burned and my face is still tender. This is not the experience I was expecting with this brush. I've never been so disappointed with a brush so quickly.
 
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captp

Pretty Pink Fairy Princess.
Flow through, as I understand it, is the ease with which the water mixes with the soap to work up lather and distribute to the tips of the brush. Simply put, it's how easily a brush gives up lather as you work it on the face, instead of holding it within the brush.

I got something similar to carpet burn trying out this Chubby this evening. I did a few practice lathers with a couple of soaps and lathered it up. My face needed some AS on it, applying it burned and my face is still tender. This is not the experience I was expecting with this brush. I've never been so disappointed with a brush so quickly.

O.K. that makes some sense. I bowl lather and 'scrape' the brush on the side of the scuttle as I build it up, then face paint, so I don't think it'll be a problem for me with a denser brush. Only time will tell.

On 'carpet burn', are you maybe pressing too hard with the brush? Only guessing since I don't face lather. The Chubby has a fairly short loft, doesn't it, maybe making it a bit stiffer than your last brush?
 
On 'carpet burn', are you maybe pressing too hard with the brush? Only guessing since I don't face lather. The Chubby has a fairly short loft, doesn't it, maybe making it a bit stiffer than your last brush?

I primarily use boars. Stiffer? no, but denser. It's a different feel. I reckon I should be able to press as much as I like though, I prefer to work a brush and not use it as a painting tool.

I've never had this reaction from any brush, not even a Semogue 620, no matter how rough I use it.
 
I agree with your post--I had the same learning challenge with my Chubby 1 and now use much less water. Put a little water on soap--wet brush---empty water from soap-shake water out of brush-then lather. Thanks for your post--should help many.
 
Drubbing pretty much provided the definition of flow-through as I see it. People say to use more product with a larger brush in order to fill the brush up more so that you can actually get some of the lather out of it. I am starting to feel that, for a dense brush, go smaller.
 
I got something similar to carpet burn trying out this Chubby this evening. I did a few practice lathers with a couple of soaps and lathered it up. My face needed some AS on it, applying it burned and my face is still tender. This is not the experience I was expecting with this brush. I've never been so disappointed with a brush so quickly.

I don't get that carpet burn sensation you're getting but I LOVE the intense scrubbing I get from my CH2. really feels great! But then I don't have very sensitive skin:lol: Kinda like using a brush to clean leather:lol:

Anyway, yet again, YMMV,:thumbup:

Ken
 
Having re-read this thread it seems a little more like a tribute to the Duke 2 and Chubby 1 than the intended 'how to'. Well, I am enthusiastic about these brushes and am obviously biased for dense, dense walls of badgery lather. Its also very difficult to concisely and accurately describe what things like 'a little less pressure', or 'the degree of dampness' actually mean. Perhaps if any fellas are having issues they could, in as much detail as possible, describe their lathering techniques, their results, the sort of lather/experience they're getting and the sort they want, and the dense brush lovers can perhaps offer some pointers.

Anyway, back to the fawning...I recently discovered what is quickly becoming my new favourite method of lathering, and brush and product combination: the Chubby 1 in conjunction with shave sticks. And it is, btw, specifically the Chubby and not the Duke 2; the extra couple of millimetres of knot seem to make a lot of difference in this 'medium'. Its a very quick and mess free way to lather, and I usually complete a three pass shave and apply a splash and/or balm in under ten minutes. I splash with warm water, liberally apply some Valobra or Palmolive to my face, take the CH1, which having been run under warm water for ten seconds is now shaken and 'damp' (no dripping)*, and start lathering away. The warmth these brushes hold is as unique as the amount of water they do, and it really is a very nice and efficient way to lather. I rarely have to add water in the middle of lathering, but do sometimes, depending on the soap and, of course, sometimes I overdo the 'start with a dryish/damp brush' thing and need to add a little water. No harm.

*I've noticed a CH1 can be dry enough to be 'drip free' and likely still be too wet - you know when you use a 'too wet' brush with a soap stick, and you end up with water and suds all over the place - thats how 'degrees' and dampness and shakenoutedness are impossible to describe and can only be intuited through dozens of uses...its not even easy to see something like that I don;t think, so videos aren't a great help sometimes, and as mentioned these brushes are a bit different and just require patience and a bit of practice. Good luck with your Chubbys!

~Adam
 
Have seen a few posts recently from members having issues with denser brushes, and specifically one on the front page re. the Simpsons Chubby.

For the last year or so I have used, to the exclusion of all else, a Chubby 1 and a Duke 2, both in Best. I have, during this time, interspersed use of brushes, badger and boar, described as 'dense', 'scrubby' etc etc. They have all disappointed me, and I realise I've found the brushes with the specs I love, and all other brushes I buy now are just for fun.

These dense brushes provide a unique sensory experience, but also, at least for me, make a better lather, and make it more readily. It must, however, be noted that using such a brush does indeed present some challenges, and as has been noted in the past, a 'Chubby dense' brush really is a unique and new experience, quite different from using a more loosely packed brush.

The first piece of advice you often get, when struggling with a new dense brush, is to 'use more product' - I disagree with this. The lather we shave with is just soap+water+air in a certain ratio, depending on our personal preferences - don't get hung up too much on completely filling every square millimetre of your brush/bowl with creamy lather - as long as the stuff on your face is good thats all that matters.

Use the same amount of product you usually do, but be aware it may look a little different here. A damp Chubby, with almost all the water shaken out of it, will still hold way more moisture than most 'average density' brushes. If we use the 'wetness' of our old brushes as a guage to how we use our denser ones, and leave it with some excess water still dipping when we begin to lather, we will indeed need to load and load more and more product, as there is just so much water contained in there that it needs several minutes loading to produce anything resembling lather.

When using my DUKE 2 with, say, GFT soaps, I will run the brush under the tap for ten seconds, let it drip, shake until all excess water is lost, swirl on the puck 40-50 times, and then lather on my face. No water is added from this point on. When using say, Cella, I will swirl a similarly damp brush 20-30 times and then face lather, perhaps slightly re-wetting the tips again at some point - some soaps are thirstier, of course, and Cella seems one of them.

The last point I'd make, which is actually about the beginning of the process, is that the tips of the brush load a good amount of soap from a puck without too much encouragement; you don't have to press down excessively. This is another mistake I initially made - like using too much water, I tended to think I had to compensate for the brush's muscularity by doing everything more - more water, more product, more pressure. But you don't. Just use gentle pressure - less than with other brushes, a more modest approach to loading the brush, and then enjoy the sensory overload of squishing that brush on your face and feeling it push back at you, while creating lather almost instantly. I know, not the conventional advice, but this is how I have gotten the best from these dense, scrubby-soft brushes, and can't see myself ever really using anything else :thumbup1:



~Adam

This a a truly nice, interesting and helpful post.

--james
 
Definitely some food for thought.

I'm in the habit (and I doubt I'm the only one) of soaking my brush for several minutes at a time, rather than the ten seconds under the tap Adam uses. Hmm... I wonder...
 
Lather generation is usually not a problem for dense badger brushes. Lather application is/can be a problem for dense badger brushes. I would love to see videos of people using large dense badger brushes throughout a whole shave. Mantic makes great videos, but he uses floppy badger brushes. From what I gather, dense brushes really are a internet forum phenomenon. Floppy brushes typically are what stores sell to the general, non-hobbyist wet-shaver.

So, should we have a "Dense Badger Brush Video Lathering Challenge?" :laugh:

I doubt we would have many takers do to equipment, time, and lack of enthusiasm restraints.

I still think I more of a boar guy. I have been happy with my Semogue Owners' Club brush from day one.

Mike Sandoval's Lode-Hydrate Method works really well with badger and even boar at times.

http://www.shaving101.com/index.php...ng-lather-with-the-loadhydrate-technique.html
 
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Great thread and interesting insights :thumbup1:

I have three dense brush on rotation : A chubby#2 super I go to almost every time these days, a chubby#1 two band and a shavemac D01 two bands. I have almost give up bowl lathering as I find this messy and not practical with a dense brush. Flow through is fine for bowl lathering but implies most of the time floppy and non scrubby brush which things I don't like.

I agree with the idea of using the usual amount of product. I thought a chubby#2 would have to be heavily loaded but I actually use a little more product than with a 22 mm knot brush.

Regarding, the lather application, I find dense brush to be more convenient as it gives more control : The loft is kinda rigid and they are often short lofted, my chubby#2 seems as large as my shavemac 177 (the 177 splay so much due its 60 mm loft length that is difficult to control). Dense brush hold in its core more product and seems once properly loaded and infinite lather source. It comes in handy when I proceed with my touch up, just the Chubby in my right hand and the razor in the left until my shave is close enough

Something to consider would be to do as mentioned on my Trumper shaving cream box lid : Load the brush and start the initial lathering on the palm of the hand. Once the lather explodes apply to the face. I find it easier to start the lather on the hand than in a bowl. Furthermore, it favors the recommended painting strokes rather the swirling motion movement supposed to damage the brush.

When I load a soap with the Chubby#1 two band, a brush really dense and firm i proceed by letting the excess water run out of the loft without shaking it. Then I load on the puck. After a few swirls, I stop and pour on the loft the excess water that got out of the brush while i worked the puck. Repeat this step two or three times and then face lather.
 
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