Black Arkansas?

It has been suggested to me that something called a Black or Surgical Arkansas stone would be an excellent finishing stone. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

I should add that to this point my limited honing arsenal consists of Nortons. They seem very easy to use, but I am a relative novice in the honing art.

I've not used a modern surgical black arkansas. But I've used vintage hard arkansas that were black (and look similar to the surgical blacks, some of the "Black" hard arkansas I see today without the surgical label look much lighter and have a visual texture that the vintage ones lack).

They work quite well, perhaps even a tiny bit better than my vintage translucent hard arkansas.

I however find them to work best as a finisher on top of a finisher. Coticule followed by Arkansas is great, it changes the character of the edge and sharpens it a bit further. While it's certainly able to be done, I find that going from say a Norton 8000 to an Arkansas isn't ideal because a properly used arkansas is an EXTREMELY slow cutter for a razor, that's why I like them to smooth out bevels and edges after a hone that is already a "finisher". If your current highest grit stone is a Norton 8000, I'd recommend a Coticule as the next step. Going from 8000 to a very light slurried coticule and then doing 2-3 dilutions and finishing on water is a technique I used for close to a year very regularly.

So would it make sense then to get maybe a C12K in between? Or should I just scrap the whole idea and jump into learning coticules?

They are a very hard classic natural stone used by Dr's and in shops and science labs across the State. My Dad and my HS shop teacher swore by them for putting the final touch on carving tools and pocket knives. My Barber used one to touch up his razors between their annual trip to Memphis for a Pro Job.

The translucent and surgical black Arkansas hones are pure finishers!! - that means that they only polish metal (no edge refinement).

What the use of a Black Arkie leads to is a very even, smooth edge that should be longer lasting than the C12K edge. However, if you expect them to remove scratches or any significant amount of metal, you're going to be disappointed.

They're also pretty slow, so get the longest hone you can afford.

Price said:

So would it make sense then to get maybe a C12K in between? Or should I just scrap the whole idea and jump into learning coticules?

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I am not a fan of China 12K. I haven't done a head to head comparison, but based on most reports I'd guess they aren't all that much faster than Hard Arkansas, and they're certainly not able to create nearly as nice an edge.

You might consider a "fast" synthetic higher grit than your 8k Norton instead. Like a Carborundum 101 Razor hone or a Naniwa/shapton 8k (both are substantially finer than Norton because of different rating systems). But really I've found that the coticule is finer and better than anything else for that stage and learning to just do the last few dilutions of a dilucot is not hard at all. The hardest part is figuring out what the slurry should be like to begin, and detailed posts here or on the coticule forum WITH PICTURES would make even that step easy. After that it's just a matter of honing exactly as you do on a synth, then adding a few drops of water, honing again, drops, honing, rinse stone, honing, and done.

To be honest, I'd get the coticule and get comfortable with that finishing method, then I'd grab a trans/surgicalblack arkansas once you were confident in your coticule edges, and see if you liked the improvement it offered. Then when you get bored and feel like learning it, you've got the coticule and can try your hand at learning the FULL coti honing (Dilucot) on a dull razor, but that's just for fun, you won't ever NEED to learn that since you've got the Nortons already.

I'm beginning to see that getting a coticule is probably inevitable. Thanks for the input Ian.

Yeah, I agree...get a coticule - especially if you're trying to limit the number of hones you intend to own.

One bit of advice re. coticules: Don't get caught up in all the 'which vein' debates.

There are some differences between the layers, but all razor-intended (i.e. sold on TSS) coticules will work really well. I'd suggest getting a La Verte if possible (green/grey ones on TSS), as those are the easiest hones with which to get a super-sharp edge. They also tend to be slightly cheaper, as they're not in fashion at the moment.

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The caveat here is that if you have deep pockets, getting a naniwa or Shapton progression will give you excellent results almost immediately. Learning to master any natural hone (especially one as versatile as a coticule) takes time and experimentation.

MajorBurnz said:

The translucent and surgical black Arkansas hones are pure finishers!! - that means that they only polish metal (no edge refinement).

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I call those "post-finishers" is that ok?

Yeah, I agree...get a coticule - especially if you're trying to limit the number of hones you intend to own.

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Yohann, we both know that doesn't work.

BTW, I never heard back from you about the Fili. I guess you were disappointed.

I have a black ark - sold to me as a sugical some years ago but I really have no idea if it really is or how you can tell. It's not a solid pure inky type of black - there's some movement in the stone - it's more of a dark-grey-black.

What I do know; lapping it sucked. And it's really slooooooow.

But - I get a buttah-smooth edge every time I use it. I need at least 100 laps after the 12k - 200 is better.
It puts a haze on the bevel after a 12k Nani SS. And then the bevel looks wavy or something so it throws you off but it's all good.

The stone is unforgiving, one slip and a lot of work goes down the tube fast. So I don't use it when I'm tired, or if anyone else is home.

I get a nice shaving edge on my Rolls coming off a 600g Norton X-fine India.
Then go to a Translucent and on to the Black Arkansas which is very black-dark navy from 1980. Plus, stropping with it loaded with the green rouge. Possum

nah, sorry you guys but I find arkansas stone very weak in sharpening properties when thinking of japanese beauties.

Have a black arkansas, its not that fine as advertised and so slow cutting. Nearly useless for me.

A cerax ceramic stone is million times better.

Arkansas require proper technique. A lot of people slurry them up and use them like a whetstone. They are oilstones which get speed from pressure and cut much smoother as pressure is removed. This makes them excellent final finishing stones for razors (like any extremely fine grit oilstone really). They are in fact much much FINER than most sellers list them as, because they are expecting them to be used with tools and quite a lot of pressure.

I must add that I'm a luthier and very skillful with any type of sharpening work and tools. I also did some research on different stones and examined them with microscope photos in my thesis. Although it was not on straight razors, it was enough to show arkansas was not par with modern man made sharpening stones.

Black arkansas just not good enough while there are modern stones. Today synthetic watersones and ceramic stones cut much faster and consistent. Arkansas, waterstone, diamond stone, diamond paste, lapping films, coticule etc. nothing beats good ceramic stones IF you want both a sharp but also smooth and durable edge. Sure one can achieve much sharper edge with lapping films and compounds, but I wont say the shave would be confortable. Its overkill.

And I will still say that a 3000 ceramic is much finer than a regular black arkansas.

I have used hard black Arkansas stones for many years in honing woodworking chisels and the like. They seem to leave a virtual mirror polish on any edge. However, being a natural material they do vary in quality from one piece to another. I would definitely not buy such a stone sight unseen.
AB

Yes, the quality of the Arkansas vary so if you can look and examine before buying. I've shaved after sharpening on both, the black Arkansas and Spyderco's 2k ceramic. Both give nice shaves and I agree the Arkansas is finicky to sharpen on. The ceramic is easier and cuts quicker. Yet both are useful in this persuit. Possum

Mine is a tremendous finisher - slow yes, but what an edge it gives! I wouldn't sell it for any price. And - after look at the edge under 400x and I can testify to it's ability to refine a 12k edge. Additionally - my face agrees with the visual inspection under magnification.

Ozgun said:

I must add that I'm a luthier and very skillful with any type of sharpening work and tools. I also did some research on different stones and examined them with microscope photos in my thesis. Although it was not on straight razors, it was enough to show arkansas was not par with modern man made sharpening stones.

Black arkansas just not good enough while there are modern stones. Today synthetic watersones and ceramic stones cut much faster and consistent. Arkansas, waterstone, diamond stone, diamond paste, lapping films, coticule etc. nothing beats good ceramic stones IF you want both a sharp but also smooth and durable edge. Sure one can achieve much sharper edge with lapping films and compounds, but I wont say the shave would be confortable. Its overkill.

And I will still say that a 3000 ceramic is much finer than a regular black arkansas.

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Right, no one is saying that they can be compared with modern synthetics in terms of speed. They are quite slow and are not for the impatient. Also, because they are so hard, they need to be polished smooth for best results. You are also able to get more consistent looking results with synthetics. But, do not let a picture fool you. It's an easy mistake to look at the bevel and jump to conclusions about the edge, but the two are in fact still different things. The only magnified picture that will really tell you anything useful won't come from an optical image, at least not in the light frequencies visible to the human eye.

danjared said:

Right, no one is saying that they can be compared with modern synthetics in terms of speed. They are quite slow and are not for the impatient. Also, because they are so hard, they need to be polished smooth for best results. You are also able to get more consistent looking results with synthetics. But, do not let a picture fool you. It's an easy mistake to look at the bevel and jump to conclusions about the edge, but the two are in fact still different things. The only magnified picture that will really tell you anything useful won't come from an optical image, at least not in the light frequencies visible to the human eye.

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Yep, I was not talking on just visual estimates. Have done worlds of planing tests on woods like maple and spruce to test surface quality and edge durability.

Planing and shaving are different things, but as you know results are directly proportional as its about abrasion.

Ozgun said:

Yep, I was not talking on just visual estimates. Have done worlds of planing tests on woods like maple and spruce to test surface quality and edge durability.

Planing and shaving are different things, but as you know results are directly proportional as its about abrasion.

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Perhaps, for that application, it is true. I cannot speak about the details of your tests because I do not know them. But, shaving is not nearly as harsh on an edge. An edge can be maintained at maximum performance for many shaves. I can get a comfortable edge that passes the hanging hair test after many shaves. The same is not true of an edge that is used to cut wood. Wood is very hard on any edge. Sometimes there is a need to limit tests to apply to the domain of use.