Confused about a couple honing concepts

Lando · Apr 1, 2011

1. Honing with tape: I have seen some examples of people setting bevels with tape, then removing the tape for the finer grits/finishing stages. Will this work, or should you keep the tape on until you are completely finished?

2. Using barber hones in perpetuity: I have read that you can maintain a properly honed edge indefinitely with just frequent touch ups on a barber's hone or equivalent. This would be nice, but eventually don't you have to do a full bevel reset with coarser stones?

Thanks for any replies!

Munxcub · Apr 1, 2011

I've heard of tape early on only when honing out chips on a very coarse stone, in order to protect the spine from unnecessary damage. The Unicot has you apply tape at the very end to set a secondary bevel. Some people leave tape on the whole time. Either way works fine. If you start with tape and remove it, odds are you'll need to spend some time at the 1k-4k level in order to reset the bevel to no-tape dimensions after the heavy repair work done with tape.

I would think if you didn't let the edge get too far gone you could maintain it with regular touch ups on any hone. If you let the edge degrade too much, you will need to go down to coarser ones for a reset, but if the geometry never gets out of whack, you just need a little refinement. (more or less never letting it get down past your "pre-finisher", therefore your finisher is always the next stone) Whether that works I don't know... sounds like it's the case and makes sense in my head.

kg4ghn · Apr 1, 2011

People using tape only at the beginning is for removing chips/edge damage so you don't cause excessive honewear. Then you take the tape off and set a bevel without tape and go from there.

One of the users here Chimensch used nothing but a barber hone for 28 years until he found this place. I reckon if you can do it that long then you would be fine for a few more after that.

Chimensch · Apr 2, 2011

kg4ghn said:
People using tape only at the beginning is for removing chips/edge damage so you don't cause excessive honewear. Then you take the tape off and set a bevel without tape and go from there.

One of the users here Chimensch used nothing but a barber hone for 28 years until he found this place. I reckon if you can do it that long then you would be fine for a few more after that.

Exactly right! If the razor has a good bevel, you'll never need anything else. Unless it gets damaged.

Slash McCoy · Apr 2, 2011

I NEVER tape. Here's why:

Measure any blade in your collection. Odds are, the thickness of the spine is 1/4 the width of the blade, or slightly less. This is obviously the optimum ratio. You can calculate the bevel angle, sin = opposite/adjacent, or 1/8 (remember the bevel will be half the total angle since it is on two sides) so the bevel angle is 7.18 degrees. Now, if you protect the spine from hone wear, but wear the edge through repair or aggressive bevel resetting, you are reducing blade width but not reducing the spine thickness proportionally. So, you are creating a steeper bevel angle. I have seen 3/8 razors (that probably began life as a 5/8 or 6/8) with really thick spines out of proportion to the blade width, and therefore with a large bevel angle. The fix is to grind down the spine where it was protected by tape. Go figure. Excessive hone wear to the spine is to be avoided as much, not more and not less, than excessive hone wear to the blade in general. If you have to take a lot of steel from the edge, then you also have to take a lot of steel from the spine to maintain the proper width/thickness ratio and therefore a reasonable bevel angle. Taping does have its place... to protect the spine of a razor that you want to keep pristine as a collector's item. In general, taping is a bad idea. Preserving the original bevel angle is essential. Preserving the spine thickness is only okay when you are preserving the blade width.

I am not even using a barber hone this year. Last year I started an experiment. I have a 7 day collection (not a matched set) that I use for the most part, and a nice henckels that I keep in my overnight bag, and I am not honing them... I am using a .25 pasted paddle and an unpasted side, only for all 8 of these razors which comprise my regular rotation. I suspect that careful stropping with pasted paddle and careful use, will eliminate the necessity of honing. I'll let you know in December! But a barber hone only, if used carefully, and careful stropping with zero rounding of the edge, will definitely eliminate the need for heavy honing or bevel resetting. If you don't mess it up, there is nothing to fix. In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In fact, if it ain't broke, don't break it, either. A barber hone or a 10k or 12k finisher will indeed maintain your razor indefinitely if you are careful. The bevel should only need to be reset to correct damage done to the blade. So the key is to simply not damage the blade!

Kentos · Apr 2, 2011

That sounds great in theory, and look forward to your findings. I would guess that you may be derailed by inconsistencies in the razor blade itself, ie microchipping as you strop due to flaws in the metal etc . I also wonder if your pasted strop will have enough abrasion to counteract the natural oxidation that occurs on the bevel... Keep us posted!!

Legion · Apr 3, 2011

Slash McCoy said:
I NEVER tape. Here's why:

Measure any blade in your collection. Odds are, the thickness of the spine is 1/4 the width of the blade, or slightly less. This is obviously the optimum ratio. You can calculate the bevel angle, sin = opposite/adjacent, or 1/8 (remember the bevel will be half the total angle since it is on two sides) so the bevel angle is 7.18 degrees. Now, if you protect the spine from hone wear, but wear the edge through repair or aggressive bevel resetting, you are reducing blade width but not reducing the spine thickness proportionally. So, you are creating a steeper bevel angle. I have seen 3/8 razors (that probably began life as a 5/8 or 6/8) with really thick spines out of proportion to the blade width, and therefore with a large bevel angle. The fix is to grind down the spine where it was protected by tape. Go figure. Excessive hone wear to the spine is to be avoided as much, not more and not less, than excessive hone wear to the blade in general. If you have to take a lot of steel from the edge, then you also have to take a lot of steel from the spine to maintain the proper width/thickness ratio and therefore a reasonable bevel angle. Taping does have its place... to protect the spine of a razor that you want to keep pristine as a collector's item. In general, taping is a bad idea. Preserving the original bevel angle is essential. Preserving the spine thickness is only okay when you are preserving the blade width.

I am not even using a barber hone this year. Last year I started an experiment. I have a 7 day collection (not a matched set) that I use for the most part, and a nice henckels that I keep in my overnight bag, and I am not honing them... I am using a .25 pasted paddle and an unpasted side, only for all 8 of these razors which comprise my regular rotation. I suspect that careful stropping with pasted paddle and careful use, will eliminate the necessity of honing. I'll let you know in December! But a barber hone only, if used carefully, and careful stropping with zero rounding of the edge, will definitely eliminate the need for heavy honing or bevel resetting. If you don't mess it up, there is nothing to fix. In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In fact, if it ain't broke, don't break it, either. A barber hone or a 10k or 12k finisher will indeed maintain your razor indefinitely if you are careful. The bevel should only need to be reset to correct damage done to the blade. So the key is to simply not damage the blade!

I think your signature line exactly sums up my feeling about this post. :lol:

johnmrson · Apr 3, 2011

My preference is to not use tape. Sometime you have to though. If you need to build up the width of the spine so it's the right ratio to the size of the blade is one such occassion. If the previous oner used tape and you want to just touch up the edge without resetting the bevel is another time I'll use tape.

Legion · Apr 3, 2011

I've never used tape until recently when I did a restore on a full wedge. Tape was pretty necessary on that one.

I'm researching coticules at the moment, and I think I'm going to start with the unicot method, so I'll have to bust the tape out for that too.

Wid · Apr 3, 2011

I've used tape on a wedge to do a micro bevel, no different than the unicot, nothing wrong with it imo. I have also used tape when restoring an edge, not just bevel setting though. When I do use the tape I take it off once the edge is good and reset the bevel without tape. It help keep spine wear to a minimum.

Slash McCoy · Apr 3, 2011

legion said:
I've never used tape until recently when I did a restore on a full wedge. Tape was pretty necessary on that one.

I'm researching coticules at the moment, and I think I'm going to start with the unicot method, so I'll have to bust the tape out for that too.

Well, with a wedge, I can see the reasoning behind taping. I really don't mess with wedges and have very little experience with them, so that didn't occur to me.

natchez · Apr 3, 2011

to tape or not to tape, that is the question-IMO

tape when old,
tape when well worn
tape to fix some edgy nicks

use no tape to hone a blade,
that has an edge that is good to shave

And, no I did not put any whiskey in this morning's coffee :lol:

jkh · Apr 3, 2011

natchez said:
to tape or not to tape, that is the question-IMO

tape when old,
tape when well worn
tape to fix some edgy nicks

use no tape to hone a blade,
that has an edge that is good to shave

And, no I did not put any whiskey in this morning's coffee

I'll have you know sir, I did not put any coffee in my morning whiskey.

SliceOfLife · Apr 3, 2011

Slash McCoy said:
I NEVER tape. Here's why:

Measure any blade in your collection. Odds are, the thickness of the spine is 1/4 the width of the blade, or slightly less. This is obviously the optimum ratio. You can calculate the bevel angle, sin = opposite/adjacent, or 1/8 (remember the bevel will be half the total angle since it is on two sides) so the bevel angle is 7.18 degrees. Now, if you protect the spine from hone wear, but wear the edge through repair or aggressive bevel resetting, you are reducing blade width but not reducing the spine thickness proportionally. So, you are creating a steeper bevel angle. I have seen 3/8 razors (that probably began life as a 5/8 or 6/8) with really thick spines out of proportion to the blade width, and therefore with a large bevel angle. The fix is to grind down the spine where it was protected by tape. Go figure. Excessive hone wear to the spine is to be avoided as much, not more and not less, than excessive hone wear to the blade in general. If you have to take a lot of steel from the edge, then you also have to take a lot of steel from the spine to maintain the proper width/thickness ratio and therefore a reasonable bevel angle. Taping does have its place... to protect the spine of a razor that you want to keep pristine as a collector's item. In general, taping is a bad idea. Preserving the original bevel angle is essential. Preserving the spine thickness is only okay when you are preserving the blade width.

You've happened upon a truth so obvious that it'll give you a headache when you see the professional restorers try to discredit it. A Blade that looks perfect sells for a LOT more than one that shaves perfect. So taping (and trying to convince people there are no drawbacks to it) is just a better business move than restoring razors without tape and trying to sell them with a lot of spine wear.

I'd use tape a lot more if I liked wedges more. As it is I don't like shaving with a wedge. Lucky for me because honing a full wedge without tape is a long term commitment. I never tape anything less than a full wedge though. Mainly because I don't need too. And I absolutely never tape a restore job because of the reason you give. You'd be surprised how little depth you have to remove to throw a razors edge angle off by several degrees.

Pkrankow · Apr 9, 2011

Slash McCoy said:
I NEVER tape. Here's why:

Measure any blade in your collection. Odds are, the thickness of the spine is 1/4 the width of the blade, or slightly less. This is obviously the optimum ratio. You can calculate the bevel angle, sin = opposite/adjacent, or 1/8 (remember the bevel will be half the total angle since it is on two sides) so the bevel angle is 7.18 degrees. Now, if you protect the spine from hone wear, but wear the edge through repair or aggressive bevel resetting, you are reducing blade width but not reducing the spine thickness proportionally. So, you are creating a steeper bevel angle. I have seen 3/8 razors (that probably began life as a 5/8 or 6/8) with really thick spines out of proportion to the blade width, and therefore with a large bevel angle. The fix is to grind down the spine where it was protected by tape. Go figure. Excessive hone wear to the spine is to be avoided as much, not more and not less, than excessive hone wear to the blade in general. If you have to take a lot of steel from the edge, then you also have to take a lot of steel from the spine to maintain the proper width/thickness ratio and therefore a reasonable bevel angle. Taping does have its place... to protect the spine of a razor that you want to keep pristine as a collector's item. In general, taping is a bad idea. Preserving the original bevel angle is essential. Preserving the spine thickness is only okay when you are preserving the blade width.

I am not even using a barber hone this year. Last year I started an experiment. I have a 7 day collection (not a matched set) that I use for the most part, and a nice henckels that I keep in my overnight bag, and I am not honing them... I am using a .25 pasted paddle and an unpasted side, only for all 8 of these razors which comprise my regular rotation. I suspect that careful stropping with pasted paddle and careful use, will eliminate the necessity of honing. I'll let you know in December! But a barber hone only, if used carefully, and careful stropping with zero rounding of the edge, will definitely eliminate the need for heavy honing or bevel resetting. If you don't mess it up, there is nothing to fix. In other words, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. In fact, if it ain't broke, don't break it, either. A barber hone or a 10k or 12k finisher will indeed maintain your razor indefinitely if you are careful. The bevel should only need to be reset to correct damage done to the blade. So the key is to simply not damage the blade!

From my reading the ideal included angle is about 17 degrees instead of the 15 you specify (although 15 degree is fine). I measure my blade before deciding to tape or not if I am hogging out some edge damage. I have taped all my blades (3 so far, purchased with edge condition issues). I do not tape for regular honing. This does mean that resetting the bevel after setting before taking it to a final edge is necessary, but the time involved is not great.

There is a spread sheet in the left column to help
http://coticule.be/wedges.html

Maintaining a razor with JUST pasted strops has been referenced before. I expect that unless you drop a blade or something you will have excellent results.

Phil

Search

Confused about a couple honing concepts

Lando

Munxcub

kg4ghn

Chimensch

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets

Kentos

B&B's Dr. Doolittle.

Legion

johnmrson

Legion

Wid

Slash McCoy

I freehand dog rockets

natchez

jkh

SliceOfLife

Pkrankow

Similar threads