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bluefoxicy

I'm looking for Japanese razor advice. I'm trying to find a decent razor, I'll likely have someone hone it, I'm probably willing to put about $200 into it. At the moment I'm having no luck with folding razors that aren't a Feather AC.

What should I know?

Change in technique? I know you use one side and not the other, so I need ambidextrous shaving right?

I assume these must be held at an extremely shallow angle?

Anyone can hone these right? They're microtome (wedge/hollow) right?

I'm looking at maybe one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Japanese-st...715?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415481470b

There's PLENTY of vintage ones but they often get up over $80 or $100 eventually, and a brand new one is worth a premium to me. (This has always been an expensive hobby for me, and this is a brief return.) It has to be a quality tool though. I just spent $145 on a pair of Belleville 770 boots and $450 on a GT Tachyon road bicycle, I call these "cheap" because they're higher quality than crap that costs half as much and lasts 1/10 as long (or is just garbage to start with). $200ish for a new, good quality, properly honed razor is also "cheap," and if it turns out to be an "I don't like this" kind of thing that's my fault and not that of the razor.
 
Anyone who knows how can hone these ... the technique differs quite a bit from that used on western razors. While experience honing western razors surely translates, just because you can hone one well does not mean you can hone the other well.

They aren't quite microtomes. One side is more hollowed than the other but both are hollowed. The extent to which they are hollowed, it seems to me, varies from maker to maker.

I'd recommend getting one from a person you trust, someone who knows what to look for. A stranger on Ebay is not that. Frankly, if an unused one is worth a premium to you, get an Iwasaki. For a little more money, you get pretty much the gold standard in currently produced Japanese razors.

When I started, I took it to heart that you should only shave with one side. Not an easy task. A few bad shaves and some blood loss later, some of the more experienced gents here convinced me to do otherwise. Had they not, I would have probably given up.
 
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bluefoxicy

They aren't quite microtomes. One side is more hollowed than the other but both are hollowed. The extent to which they are hollowed, it seems to me, varies from maker to maker.

Interesting.

Frankly, if an unused one is worth a premium to you, get an Iwasaki. For a little more money, you get pretty much the gold standard in currently produced Japanese razors.

I will push this back less for financial reasons and more for impulse-buy reasons. These are $275 at a cursory Google search, and of course I have to pay to ship, hone, ship back to someone like Lynn. I saw these a year or so ago though (yeah, I've been milling over this for a while), and it seems I've come full-circle now.

In the worst case, in several months when I decide to go for it I'll back off on that and look for a cheaper one, ne?

When I started, I took it to heart that you should only shave with one side. Not an easy task. A few bad shaves and some blood loss later, some of the more experienced gents here convinced me to do otherwise. Had they not, I would have probably given up.

Hmm. I've considered learning to shave both hands/one side with a folding blade, but never got around to it (seriously, it's a @#$*$@* sharp knife being waved around in your face; there is somewhat of a deterrent here). I'll likely still work on that, but this is useful information.

Any tips on doing one side though? You can either swap direction (up instead of down on one side) or come from the opposite side (handle toward nose for one side of the face, handle toward ear for the other). I can easily see the problem here.
 
If you can find somewhere selling a Iwasaki and free honing then $285 isn't quite so bad.

My problem using only one side of the razor was that it required I bend in ways I simply can't. I'd think only using one hand would make it more difficult to shave off of one edge. Feel free to give it a try. If it works for you, great. If not you can switch to using both sides.
 
No free honing but this is the first hit on google:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?pf_id=05.001

The second is more expensive, apparently bigger:

http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product.asp?pf_id=05.002

Is this dubious?
I ordered an Iwasaki from Japan Woodworker and was very pleased with the process. It was not honed so I did need to send it out for a honing.

When I ordered mine the shipment took a few weeks as they had to wait for one to be sent over from Japan.
 
I have to jump in here.

There is a reason these razors have an asymmetrical grind to them. Otherwise they would be Western Razors and be designed to be used on both sides. The fact the two sides are vastly different means one side is optimized for shaving. Yes you can use both sides (afterall it's your razor) but there are big differences in feel and efficiency. If you have one and find they both are exactly the same no matter the side you use I'm here to tell you it wasn't honed properly and you are on your way to having a frankenrazor.

One thing to realize is you can seriously mess up these razors with improper honing much faster than a western razor with bad honing.
 
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bluefoxicy

I have to jump in here.

There is a reason these razors have an asymmetrical grind to them. Otherwise they would be Western Razors and be designed to be used on both sides. The fact the two sides are vastly different means one side is optimized for shaving. Yes you can use both sides (afterall it's your razor) but there are big differences in feel and efficiency. If you have one and find they both are exactly the same no matter the side you use I'm here to tell you it wasn't honed properly and you are on your way to having a frankenrazor.

One thing to realize is you can seriously mess up these razors with improper honing much faster than a western razor with bad honing.

The important questions are thus less technique and more:

  • Will shaving on both sides damage the razor? (I suppose wearing the edge faster is indirect damage--more honing needed, life-shortening--but not catastrophic)
  • Who are the good honers? (I was thinking Lynn Abrams)

This is a far-off plan. I'm thinking on buying a leather jacket (wool or thinsulate lined) when it gets cold again, and I'll probably wait until then to decide if I also want to put up for a new razor. That tends to put things in the "serious purchase" category, i.e. things I don't want to destroy, so these are very significant questions to me because I'm trying to somewhat avoid the "live-and-learn" factor here.
 
They are specifically designed to be used on one side. You will not harm it using either however when you hone them the process is totally different than western razors and you do little honing on the non shaving side. Many use a ratio like 50 to 1 or even 100 to 1 depending on what you are doing to it.

It really comes down to say buying a nice set of screwdrivers and using them to pry things up with. They will do that but that is not what they were designed for. Most who use Kamisori's use both sides because they find it easy but the easy way is not always the right way or proper way. Really, so little is known about them both here and in Japan people make up all kinds of ridiculous stories about them and how to use them.

Of course in the end it's your razor and you use it to best suit you.
 
You don't get something for nothing.

Kamisori are made differently, with that asym grind. That allows a unique blade to face angle when used on that side. And it does indeed give an excellent, very close shave!

However, with that asym grind, the drawback is that to be able to use it "one side only" on your face, you will come to areas where the handle sticking out makes things tricky by colliding with your ear, nose, etc. That requires modifying your technique, and could be considered by some to be a pain in the arse. As I said, you don't get something for nothing.

They are made of fantastic steel, and can take a lightsaber edge. Really quite nice in that regard!

I do think every straight user should give one a try at least once. They are so unique.
 
Did you pull the trigger on the ebay one shown in your original posting yet? I had seen that listing as well and have considered buying one, but have not. The backside which is mostly flat should also have some slight hollowing to make the honing and shaving easier, but it is hard to tell from the pics of this ebay offering whether or not that is the case. Whether the steel will hold a good edge or not is another worry/concern without getting any feedback from independent person. Otherwise the price is good and tempting.
 
I have to jump in here. *sigh*

I am not an expert on Japanese razors. Nor do I play one on TV. But I have been shaving with one for a while now. It wasn't much fun when I was only using the allegedly correct side. Nor were the shaves too good. Things got a lot better when I took others' advice to use both sides.

Yes, Japanese razors have an asymetrical grind. Does that mean you have to use only the correct side? No. I suspect more people would use them if no one pushed the twaddle that you must only use the proper side.

One of the aspects that makes straight razors work so well is that each user figures out what works for him. We don't tell n00bs to use both sides of a western straight because it was designed to be used that way. Instead, we encourage them to get a razor and experiement.

The advice for using a Japanese straight should be the same. Get a sharp one and find out what works for you. If you find it impossible to shave with only one side, don't worry for a second about using both sides.
 
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Henry is right. The whole "use one side only" theory is complete bunk. It is NOT the same thing as using an expensive screwdriver to pry off paint can lids. A Japanese razor is a knife, plain and simple, and it cuts EXACTLY THE SAME FROM BOTH SIDES. The edge of a knife is a wedge or a V. The hair on your face does not know which side of the V is facing up or down when you are shaving. The only question is what is the angle formed by the two faces.

Now if anyone would bother to look into the background here, he'd also learn that it is quite a recent development in the history of shaving for a man to shave himself. It's only in the past 120 years that Western men started to take up this practice in any kind of large numbers. And it happened far more recently in Japan.

When you are shaving ANOTHER PERSON'S FACE it makes sense to design a tool that may be slightly more comfortable to hold in the right hand or the left hand, depending on the preference of the perspn doing the shaving. The knife would still need to work perfectly well when turned over, because even a right handed barber is going to have to shave with the grain sometimes and against the grain other times.

So why would you need or want to use only one side of the blade when you are shaving yourself with a kamisori? I have no idea at all. But I agree with Henry that this one bit of wrong information is probably responsible for more bloodshed and real unhappiness here than the next ten things put together. Soooo many people (me included) hear the "use one side only" advice and cut themselves to ribbons trying to do it. And you can only actually follow the advice if (1) you have both right and left handed razors at your sink (2) you can shave with both your right and left hands equally well or (3) you are shaving someone else's face.

You know what's good about "use one side only"? It virtually guarantees that practially no one will be able to use and enjoy a kamisori as it is intended to be used, and that keeps the prices of these fantastic razors artificially low for people like Henry and me. I will stop ranting now.
 
You know what's good about "use one side only"? It virtually guarantees that practially no one will be able to use and enjoy a kamisori as it is intended to be used, and that keeps the prices of these fantastic razors artificially low for people like Henry and me. I will stop ranting now.

That's right people. Use only one side :lol:

And if you want a decent NEW kamisori but don't have the cash for an Iwasaki, try Takeshi Aoki at www.aframestokyo.com. He has very very nice razors by Kanetaka for around $150.

That is what I use and I have no complaints.
 
These arguments go on and on.

reminds me of people who would refuse to drive a car with a manual tranny cause it's too hard or complicated. Gee I wonder how all those people do it. Or better yet when folks look to start using a straight razor over say a cartridge they are overwhelmed and really have a time trying to figure the whole thing out. That's how many folks think of the Kamisori thing.

Maybe instead of saying it's designed to be used on both sides you might ask instead how is it so many can use one side exclusively and get super results? Like the guy who tries honing a straight and just can't get anywhere and finally sends it out to a honemaster and it comes back expertly honed.
 
I'm afraid I still don't understand the reasoning here.

In an earlier post you said that using both sides of the kamisori is "wrong wrong wrong." Even Joel said to knock it off after that comment.

Above you said that using both sides of the kamisori is like using an expensive screwdriver to pry open cans - like turning the razor over and using the other side is going to damage it or ruin it somehow. C'mon, man, you know that's not true at all.

Now you're saying that using both sides of the kamisori is like driving a manual transmission, and because you can do it, it must be possible for others to do it too. Ok, I'm sure I would believe what you're saying if I saw a video of it, but that's actually besides the point. What does the fact that you can shave like that (if indeed you can) have to do with giving decent, responsible advice to others who are interested in these razors?!

All I'm saying is that a LOT of people turn to this website for advice on how to master these skills. You might prefer to use just one side of your kamisoris - great for you, and I've got no problem with that. I've got some kamisoris that I don't even use at all - they're just too cool looking in their NOS state that I can't bring myself to hone them. That's part of the fun of this hobby, and no one takes issue with how you choose to use or not use your razors.

But it seems like you are crossing the line when you keep advising others to use the razors the way you do and that any other way is just wrong or nontraditional or uninformed or something. WHAT IS YOUR AUTHORITY FOR THAT ADVICE? Do you have any articles or sources or any other person with experience who agrees with you? Because your advice does cause real harm to others. Maybe it's just a nick or a slash on the cheek, but when you are the person giving that advice, you are partly responsible for the consequences of that advice to others.
 
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