Coticule with honing oil & ID

**natchez** · 03-27-2011, 10:41 AM

So, since I now have a few bouts to play with, I took the one I decided to keep and finished a blade with oil rather than water. Very, very nice result. I found a bit better than just with water.

Has anyone else try this approach and liked it? I was also able to easily wash the oil off the stone and go back to water, and slurry it up, I checked. The vintage coticule instructions say you can use with water or oil.

Does anyone know what vein this one is from- very creamy and nice with a few spidery lines in it?

BTW I just cut the remaining bout prices until tomorrow in my sale, then they will be withdrawn.

The stone I used is this one, 52 x 98 mm:

**dakotaev** · 03-27-2011, 10:56 AM

I haven't, what type of oil would work for this?

**kg4ghn** · 03-27-2011, 11:03 AM

I believe Chris(wdwrx) has done this a good bit. He will probably be along to comment.

Until then:

http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/1194.html

**natchez** · 03-27-2011, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by dakotaev

I haven't, what type of oil would work for this?

Norton has a honing oil, so does Lansky. I had both in the house, so I tried them- no difference noted. Edges were great off of either of these honing oils. I also tried sewing machine oil, which is available everywhere and besides the smell, seemed to work okay. But, I do prefer the actual honing oils. Baby oil and mineral oil are somewhat heavier, but I have not tried those yet.

Originally Posted by kg4ghn

I believe Chris(wdwrx) has done this a good bit. He will probably be along to comment.

Until then:

http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/topic/1194.html

Thanks. I tried a search over there, but got a different thread that was not nearly as informative.

I recently acquired what folks have been calling a "brown thurrigian or Esher" hone and was advised to use oil on it, so once I had the honing oils I figured why not? BTW, that hone is truly sweet with oil.

**danjared** · 03-27-2011, 12:22 PM

To me, it looks like an upper sublayer of La Dressante. I imagine that it has a very faint graininess and mild feeling of abrasion and is probably one of the harder varieties of coticule.

I've used oil a bit on coticules. It works pretty nicely because of the cushioning effect it has.

**wdwrx** · 03-27-2011, 02:38 PM

I did do quite a bit of honing with oil on my coti at one point. i think it achieves the same result as the vaunted "soap" method for the same reasons, in that it slows down or mitigates the abrasive properties of the stone.
At the time, I was able to get some very keen edges, especially since i as struggling at the time to max out the stone.
What put me onto it was that I was using a vintage stone that left such mellow edges that I just couldn't get a good shave from them. Even had Gary Haywood do a blade on it for me and still didn't enjoy the shave from it. Only by using oil on it was I ever able to achieve an edge that was to my tastes from that particular stone.
I did start to notice that the edges were creeping into the "too sharp" range for my skin type, so I've since gone away from it. I'd heartily, without reservation, recommend it, especially for anyone that isn't getting the most from their stone.
Now that I'm thinking of it, my shaving technique has ratcheted up a notch, so I may be able to tolerate an edge sharper than what I've grown used to. i should try it again.

**Disburden** · 03-27-2011, 05:16 PM

I have used cotis with oils before and the result is a sharper edge than water IMO, I like it a lot, I've also used shaving soap and that works also but not as much as oil. The downside to oil is even though coticules are non-porous some people think you will eventually have issues on the coticule. I haven't tried this enough to see the long term effects.

Old Vintage coticules will sometimes say you can use oil on the box. The SR Droescher coticule I used to have said that. Isn't that yours now? LOL

**natchez** · 03-27-2011, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by danjared

To me, it looks like an upper sublayer of La Dressante. I imagine that it has a very faint graininess and mild feeling of abrasion and is probably one of the harder varieties of coticule.

I've used oil a bit on coticules. It works pretty nicely because of the cushioning effect it has.

Thanks. I was thinking that the little bit of red showing in the side of the stone might have indicated that ID, but the spidery lines on the surface do not look like the other La Dressantes I have.

Originally Posted by wdwrx

I did do quite a bit of honing with oil on my coti at one point. i think it achieves the same result as the vaunted "soap" method for the same reasons, in that it slows down or mitigates the abrasive properties of the stone.
At the time, I was able to get some very keen edges, especially since i as struggling at the time to max out the stone.
What put me onto it was that I was using a vintage stone that left such mellow edges that I just couldn't get a good shave from them. Even had Gary Haywood do a blade on it for me and still didn't enjoy the shave from it. Only by using oil on it was I ever able to achieve an edge that was to my tastes from that particular stone.
I did start to notice that the edges were creeping into the "too sharp" range for my skin type, so I've since gone away from it. I'd heartily, without reservation, recommend it, especially for anyone that isn't getting the most from their stone.
Now that I'm thinking of it, my shaving technique has ratcheted up a notch, so I may be able to tolerate an edge sharper than what I've grown used to. i should try it again.

You should try it again, by all means. The edges I am getting are really nice. I did another two today and again got what seems to be fine edges.

**Bart** · 03-27-2011, 06:36 PM

For what it's worth: the "vaunted" hardened soap method (which is not vaunted at all, but still as much under development as it is promising) doesn't relate at all to oil or another fluids of different viscosity than water.

I have done many tests with many fluids, and for me it never turned into something that delivered better (or sharper) edges. It became a practice I would sometimes try if 2 or 3 previous attempts to reach the desired keenness didn't fully satisfy. I never use it now. But, of course, that should no one stop from using oil, if the results are good.

Kind regards,
Bart

**Harvitz81** · 03-27-2011, 06:41 PM

I bought an old vintage coticule on eBay (a La Grise) in a barber's lot that was just coated in oil to the point the whole thing was black.

I actually bid on the lot thinking it was a thuringian, but to my surprise when it cam it was a coticule.

There was a mint C-MON and very good vintage strop in the lot so I take it the barber knew what he was doing. I personally haven't experimented with oil as I've found no real need to, but I think it definitely can be (and was) done.

**natchez** · 03-27-2011, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Bart

For what it's worth: the "vaunted" hardened soap method (which is not vaunted at all, but still as much under development as it is promising) doesn't relate at all to oil or another fluids of different viscosity than water.

I have done many tests with many fluids, and for me it never turned into something that delivered better (or sharper) edges. It became a practice I would sometimes try if 2 or 3 previous attempts to reach the desired keenness didn't fully satisfy. I never use it now. But, of course, that should no one stop from using oil, if the results are good.

Kind regards,
Bart

Thanks Bart. Maybe, if my technique was in a league anywhere near yours I would not be getting better results with oil. Nor, possibly even experimenting with it.

My speculation is that the oil is just that little bit heavier than water that it may be effectively "lightening" my touch on the hone for the last 50 strokes. Thereby allowing a relative newbie at honing, 100-200 razors so far, to get a result beyond my basic skill level. All I know is the edges for me have been noticeably better than the coticule on just water and the shaves the last few days super. I used oil on three razors so far, differing the makes and grinds, and have had equal success.

**Disburden** · 03-27-2011, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by natchez

Thanks Bart. Maybe, if my technique was in a league anywhere near yours I would not be getting better results with oil. Nor, possibly even experimenting with it.

My speculation is that the oil is just that little bit heavier than water that it may be effectively "lightening" my touch on the hone for the last 50 strokes. Thereby allowing a relative newbie at honing, 100-200 razors so far, to get a result beyond my basic skill level. All I know is the edges for me have been noticeably better than the coticule on just water and the shaves the last few days super. I used oil on three razors so far, differing the makes and grinds, and have had equal success.

I've had several people say the same thing to me about oil on the coticules...

**kg4ghn** · 03-27-2011, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by natchez

Norton has a honing oil, so does Lansky. I had both in the house, so I tried them- no difference noted. Edges were great off of either of these honing oils. I also tried sewing machine oil, which is available everywhere and besides the smell, seemed to work okay. But, I do prefer the actual honing oils. Baby oil and mineral oil are somewhat heavier, but I have not tried those yet.

Thanks. I tried a search over there, but got a different thread that was not nearly as informative.I recently acquired what folks have been calling a "brown thurrigian or Esher" hone and was advised to use oil on it, so once I had the honing oils I figured why not? BTW, that hone is truly sweet with oil.

FWIW I usually do a google search with site:coticule.be when I'm looking for stuff over there. I don't really like their built in search.

**Bart** · 03-28-2011, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by natchez

Thanks Bart. Maybe, if my technique was in a league anywhere near yours I would not be getting better results with oil. Nor, possibly even experimenting with it.

My speculation is that the oil is just that little bit heavier than water that it may be effectively "lightening" my touch on the hone for the last 50 strokes. Thereby allowing a relative newbie at honing, 100-200 razors so far, to get a result beyond my basic skill level. All I know is the edges for me have been noticeably better than the coticule on just water and the shaves the last few days super. I used oil on three razors so far, differing the makes and grinds, and have had equal success.

Don't underestimate your technique, nor overestimate mine

.
It's not because I happen to host a website about these rocks, that I should own how people should or should not use these rocks. If oil gives you better results, I think you should explore it. I revisited the use of oil when Chris (wdwrx) came up with it a coulple of months ago. But it seemed to may no discernible difference for me. Only in the case where water didn't get me where I want, I used lather or oil on the surface, to see if it could help me out. Sometimes it did, sometimes it didn't. I have a bit of a repertoire of things to try when the regular routine on water doesn't give me the HHT-result right off the stone, that I've come to expect and trust. Finishing on lather (or oil) is part of the repertoire, but I need to divert into that repertoire less and less. I suspect that it's main strength is to keep me going till the edge was keen enough. My biggest shortcomming when honing razors used to be that I gave up to soon, surrendering myself to wishful thinking... "Maybe after I strop it, this edge will turn out perfect after all". It never was. After making that error a hundred times, one learn to stop doing that. Having a repertoire of finishing variations motivates to stay at it.

I also think that if oil had a very clear advantage over water, for Coticule usage, that 3 ages of experience would have turned it into the prevailing practice. Which didn't happen. I think it remained mostly a habit among woodworkers who were already using oil on there coarser oilstones.
But it is a fact however that barbers used shaving lather, which I believe serves exactly the same function as oil.

Kind regards,
Bart