Signature King Gillette 1908 Single Ring, How Rare / Common Is It?

IronHammer · May 4, 2011

Intrigued said:
The lists looks good except nonicks' A409518 should be at the top of the list with Sandycounty's A401182 second. So far no Single Rings with out signatures have shown up with serial numbers between the Signature Single Rings serial numbers. If this trend continues we might someday have an idea of how many of the Signature Single Rings were made.

I corrected the list in the places that I could (in thread postings and in the wiki). They should reflect correct numbers now and have nonicks above Sandcounty's. I sure hope I hear back from Robert Waits soon!

Intrigued · May 4, 2011

IronHammer said:
I corrected the list in the places that I could (in thread postings and in the wiki). They should reflect correct numbers now and have nonicks above Sandcounty's. I sure hope I hear back from Robert Waits soon!

I fixed my quote of your post. It would be fantastic if you get response from Robert Waits that fills in that serial number. And speaking of fantastic, I want to say again that you did great work on that Signature Single Ring Wiki. :thumbup:

IronHammer · May 4, 2011

Intrigued said:
I fixed my quote of your post. It would be fantastic if you get response from Robert Waits that fills in that serial number. And speaking of fantastic, I want to say again that you did great work on that Signature Single Ring Wiki.

Thanks. I own an internet tech company. It's what I do so it's no big deal for me. I sympathize that wiki-speak is pretty hard for non-techies.

highball · Jun 9, 2011

I found a Single ring with Ser# A375582. Only the cap has the King Gillette Signature, there are no markings on the head of the razor

Intrigued · Jun 9, 2011

highball said:
I found a Single ring with Ser# A375582. Only the cap has the King Gillette Signature, there are no markings on the head of the razor

That keeps it in the range of the other Signature Single Rings we know of and is now our new low number. The lack of a signature on the head adds a new twist to the mystery.

IronHammer · Jun 10, 2011

Hmm. That doesn't fit with the others since the base plate doesn't have the signature. Seems to me it must be made up from the parts of two single rings. The cap plate and the key are from the original with the main piece being replaced. Still, it's great to be able to document a new number. Your second one brings the total up to seven now.

I am still contacting various collectors (on and off the grid) to try find and document more of these. I have been adding them as I find them (so far only one). I am also following up on a lead where a fella in NY has the original Gillette document that states that "a few" of these were made. I am trying to get the exact wording on this or even a scan/copy of it. This is the document that was owned and referenced by the late Don Beehler.

Mark1966 · Sep 21, 2012

Time for an update!

The wiki page is now here post the B&B upgrade.

Intrigued · Sep 21, 2012

Mark1966 said:
Time for an update!

The wiki page is now here post the B&B upgrade.

Thanks for updating the link, Mark. :thumbup:

Mark1966 · Sep 22, 2012

I have a signature single ring! :biggrin1:

Thanks to my good friend Nick in the UK - thanks Nick :thumbup:

Hmm, well, sort of....

It has the signature, but only here, not on the cap....

It has an 'A' series serial number ...

Serial Number A393541 - so certainly within the 'range' of the signature single rings.

BUT, and I knew this when purchasing, the patent number is not the usual ...

The full inscription being Pat. No. 28.763 of 02 - which I think is a UK patent?

Now looking at the crack on the handle I'm thinking that the barrel may have been replaced at some stage in the past. What do the experts think?

Intrigued · Sep 22, 2012

Mark1966 said:
I have a signature single ring! Thanks to my good friend Nick in the UK - thanks Nick

Hmm, well, sort of....

It has the signature, but only here, not on the cap....

It has an 'A' series serial number ...

Serial Number A393541 - so certainly within the 'range' of the signature single rings.

BUT, and I knew this when purchasing, the patent number is not the usual ...

The full inscription being Pat. No. 28.763 of 02 - which I think is a UK patent?

Now looking at the crack on the handle I'm thinking that the barrel may have been replaced at some stage in the past. What do the experts think?

Great acquisition! :thumbup:

Make sure you add it to the Wiki (with some notes about the barrel markings and signature location, please).

Your right, it is a British Patent Number. I found some threads that talked about Pat. No. 28,763 that make for some interesting reading.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/122805-please-identify-an-Old-Type-Gillette
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php/305433-1907-Old-Style-Standard-Set

It could be the original barrel. Right now without more information about why the Signature was put on such a few 1908 Single Rings, there doesn't seem to be any way to know for sure.

IronHammer · Sep 22, 2012

Mark,

Congrats on tracking one of these down. But I agree with you. I think the barrel had to have been replaced at some point (along with the cap). I just can't see how there could possibly be a U.S. serial number AND a British Patent number at the same time. Seems like a strange patent number, even for the UK. Then again, I don't know UK Gillette patents very well. It actually is printed " of 02"? Almost like there were two patents on it.

Also, I noticed in the closeup shot of the bottom of the head, the cap posts don't fit as snugly in the base plate holes as they should. Notice the gapping? Just another indication that the cap isn't original. In fact, the cap piece may not even be Gillette because of the gapping. All of my Single Rings (signed or unsigned) have tightly snugged cap posts.

EDIT: The cap piece is quite likely from the same UK Single Ring as the barrel, which would explain the ill-fitting guide posts. I don't have a UK Single Ring to see how the cap would fit on an American Single Ring.

IronHammer · Sep 22, 2012

Very interesting reading, Connie. After reading those other threads I have a hypothesis. According to the UK 1902 patent filing, there was obviously an intention by Gillette to enter the UK market as early 1901 or 1902 even though there wasn't a UK factory until 1909. I agree with mblakele's theory that the US Gillette factory were turning out sets (or, at least the razors, with cases made in the UK under license for Gillette) specifically for the UK market? Perhaps, later, the Paris factory did the same thing when it started up in 1905. This would explain why some very early British sets had US serial numbers. Then, in 1908, when the Signature series was released, some of the Siggies were produced for the UK market? This, to me, further legitimizes the purpose of the Signature razors, I think (whatever reason they were made for).

InfernoOrangeSS · Sep 22, 2012

That's just great! Now something else to add to my "Wish List" of razors to collect. :cursing:

Mark1966 · Sep 23, 2012

The plot thickens!

I was going through my 'to clean up' recent acquisitions and have quite a few that need to be sorted out, probably 20 or so. There was one though that I thought I had but couldn't find.

So I started looking through the cupboard in the laundry. I didn't find the razor I was looking for, although I did find it elsewhere.

What I stumbled across though was a largish box under some other stuff. I'd forgotten it and its contents were there. In this box were some razors that I'd forgotten I had. Going through it I discovered a Double Ring, a few British Aristocrats, a nickle plated Toggle, Rocket HD, #58 etc etc etc.

Earlier today I thought I really should go through the cupboard and make sure nothing else was still in there. I looked further in the cupboard today and found a smaller box. It only contains an Eclipse Red Ring, a British patent single ring and a few other bits and pieces. I know, I know, not a bad surprise all up (a few things will need to be sold soon!)

This is the British patent single ring:

I normally wouldn't have given the British single ring much thought except I was curious about it having just received the one I posted about earlier. Clearly no signature under the head on this one but I wondered about the serial number.

The serial number is A372534 - the same series as the other one!!!!

Of course by this stage the razor is in three pieces, what do I notice under the cap...

If I didn't see it with my own eyes I would not believe it.

The barrel on this one is firm, unlikely to have been replaced. The knob is worn more than the barrel but this is not that uncommon. I'll need to take some better comparison shots but I think that the head is different to the other one.

This is not a case of me mixing these up as the first one was straight from the mailbox and was listed on eBay with that description and faults.

So now I have two 'half' signature single rings. Both with British patent barrels and 'A' series serial numbers. I don't know about you but I'm more confused as ever. Maybe I should combine these two with a replacement US barrel and life would be much simpler :biggrin1:

.

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Mark1966 · Sep 23, 2012

IronHammer said:
...

Also, I noticed in the closeup shot of the bottom of the head, the cap posts don't fit as snugly in the base plate holes as they should. Notice the gapping? Just another indication that the cap isn't original. In fact, the cap piece may not even be Gillette because of the gapping. All of my Single Rings (signed or unsigned) have tightly snugged cap posts.

EDIT: The cap piece is quite likely from the same UK Single Ring as the barrel, which would explain the ill-fitting guide posts. I don't have a UK Single Ring to see how the cap would fit on an American Single Ring.

Tod,

I tried the signature cap on the signature head - it fits pretty much the same as the other cap did.

IronHammer · Sep 23, 2012

Mark, this is really interesting (nevermind the fact that you have Eclipse, Double-Rings and Toggles in boxes that you actually FORGOT you had LOL!), but it seems you have the earliest known Signature Single Ring (A372534), or at least parts of it. The script of the signature on your cap-piece matches exactly. That's awesome! I think it's safe to say we can document it on the Wiki page. Congrats!

EDIT: I have updated the Wiki to reflect Mark's two Siggies finds. That brings the list of known Signature Single Rings up to 10! Mark, you have the distinction of being the only person on earth known to possess two of these!

Intrigued · Sep 23, 2012

Mark1966 said:
The plot thickens!

I was going through my 'to clean up' recent acquisitions and have quite a few that need to be sorted out, probably 20 or so. There was one though that I thought I had but couldn't find.

So I started looking through the cupboard in the laundry. I didn't find the razor I was looking for, although I did find it elsewhere.

What I stumbled across though was a largish box under some other stuff. I'd forgotten it and its contents were there. In this box were some razors that I'd forgotten I had. Going through it I discovered a Double Ring, a few British Aristocrats, a nickle plated Toggle, Rocket HD, #58 etc etc etc.

Earlier today I thought I really should go through the cupboard and make sure nothing else was still in there. I looked further in the cupboard today and found a smaller box. It only contains an Eclipse Red Ring, a British patent single ring and a few other bits and pieces. I know, I know, not a bad surprise all up (a few things will need to be sold soon!)

This is the British patent single ring:

I normally wouldn't have given the British single ring much thought except I was curious about it having just received the one I posted about earlier. Clearly no signature under the head on this one but I wondered about the serial number.

The serial number is A372534 - the same series as the other one!!!!

Of course by this stage the razor is in three pieces, what do I notice under the cap...

If I didn't see it with my own eyes I would not believe it.

The barrel on this one is firm, unlikely to have been replaced. The knob is worn more than the barrel but this is not that uncommon. I'll need to take some better comparison shots but I think that the head is different to the other one.

This is not a case of me mixing these up as the first one was straight from the mailbox and was listed on eBay with that description and faults.

So now I have two 'half' signature single rings. Both with British patent barrels and 'A' series serial numbers. I don't know about you but I'm more confused as ever. Maybe I should combine these two with a replacement US barrel and life would be much simpler .

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

My thoughts? Well, my first thought was, 'you have a cupboard like Marry Poppin's carpet bag'! :blink:

And I quote:

"So I started looking through the cupboard in the laundry...... Going through it I discovered a Double Ring, a few British Aristocrats, a nickle plated Toggle, Rocket HD, #58 etc etc etc..... Earlier today I thought I really should go through the cupboard and make sure nothing else was still in there. I looked further in the cupboard today and found a smaller box. It only contains an Eclipse Red Ring, a British patent single ring and a few other bits and pieces."

My next thought is with you finding 2 British patent Single Rings with signatures on pieces means there was no specific purpose for the signature. The Signature Single Rings we have found to date are pretty random, ie... the boxes don't match, now even the countries aren't the same. It looks to me like they did one fairly short run with the Signature and then decided it wasn't something they wanted to continue doing. If they had done it as some sort of "golden ticket" promotion, I would think that at the very least the cap and guard both would have contained the Signature.

ERVARGASNY · Sep 23, 2012

Nice pick up

)

Mark1966 · Sep 23, 2012

IronHammer said:
Mark, this is really interesting (nevermind the fact that you have Eclipse, Double-Rings and Toggles in boxes that you actually FORGOT you had LOL!), but it seems you have the earliest known Signature Single Ring (A372534), or at least parts of it. The script of the signature on your cap-piece matches exactly. That's awesome! I think it's safe to say we can document it on the Wiki page. Congrats!

EDIT: I have updated the Wiki to reflect Mark's two Siggies finds. That brings the list of known Signature Single Rings up to 10! Mark, you have the distinction of being the only person on earth known to possess two of these!

Intrigued said:
My thoughts? Well, my first thought was, 'you have a cupboard like Marry Poppin's carpet bag'!

And I quote:

"So I started looking through the cupboard in the laundry...... Going through it I discovered a Double Ring, a few British Aristocrats, a nickle plated Toggle, Rocket HD, #58 etc etc etc..... Earlier today I thought I really should go through the cupboard and make sure nothing else was still in there. I looked further in the cupboard today and found a smaller box. It only contains an Eclipse Red Ring, a British patent single ring and a few other bits and pieces."

My next thought is with you finding 2 British patent Single Rings with signatures on pieces means there was no specific purpose for the signature. The Signature Single Rings we have found to date are pretty random, ie... the boxes don't match, now even the countries aren't the same. It looks to me like they did one fairly short run with the Signature and then decided it wasn't something they wanted to continue doing. If they had done it as some sort of "golden ticket" promotion, I would think that at the very least the cap and guard both would have contained the Signature.

Yeah, yeah, I know. I wasn't going to mention the cupboard incident (pretty embarrassing :001_unsur

) but then this single ring caught me out. I actually wonder now whether I've had that all along....

I'm still hunting for a complete US one, it would be a lot easier than these 'half' ones.

Very, very curious as to the history of these now, my additions just seem to muddy the waters further.

Thanks for updating the wiki Todd - every time I touch the wiki I break it (lose table formatting for some reason)

mharris127 · Sep 23, 2012

Intrigued said:
Just a minute, I'll go double check...... I just looked at it with a 10 power loop. There are no cracks. For the record the PAT. APL'D FOR Double Ring that I bought from the same Ebay seller had no cracks either.

Is there a chance that this was the prototype for that model razor and the Gillette signature means it was from his personal collection? This handle is designed similar to the NEW from the 30's and 40's but a touch longer. This design handle took care of the cracking problem IIRC, if they had it in 1908 I am curious to know why didn't they use that design until 1930 (I have seen the ball and tube handles common in the 1910's and 1920's that crack routinely, they look drastically different than yours does)?

Also that head looks to be useable for shaving (if you dare shave with this very valuable razor) even with the slightly bent comb tine. I think you have a million dollar razor (literally) here if my guess is correct. Gillette may even buy it from you for insane amounts of $$$ if I am correct.

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Signature King Gillette 1908 Single Ring, How Rare / Common Is It?

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