Shotgun or Pistol for Bear Defense

[Comet]

It was a joke.

I loved it! TFT smile

[Comet]

Just to be clear a Grizz and Black Bear are two different beasts. There are no Grizzly's in the east. The knock down power to put down a Black Bear is nothing compared with what is needed for Grizz.

[JayM]

Unless someone can convince me otherwise, my choices are between a .357 as above or a 12 ga. "special purpose" pump like a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870.

Any advice/opinions are greatly appreciated.

If these are your only choices.... Take the 12 ga, with 3 inch magnum slugs/00 buck.

A 357 mag - is not enough gun for bear. Dick Casull - created the 454 casull in the late 60's to address the hunters need for a more powerful handgun than the 44 mag. There are many hunters who have been mauled after emptying their 44 mag in the bear. Consider a charging bear - what target you are presented with... A massivly thick skull plate and heavy bone of the shoulders and forearms. a 44 mag has a hard time getting enough power to penetrate the bone.

Ruger makes a short barrel 454 casull, try to pick one up - your wife may not be able to shoot this as the recoil is very strong.
I would suggest a 454 casull for your waist band, and a 12 ga for the tent/camp area. - Last resort kind of stuff...

The firecrackers work really well as a deturent...

[thebikingengineer]

You're better off using a short barreled .308 or similar rifle on a bear. Shot placement is everything and bears have enough depth that you're going to have a hard time over-penetrating. It's all explained in this article.

[Acmemfg]

.30-06...in the real world you really don't need another rifle for much of anything else, except perhaps for a .22 (so now what should I do with the .270, .30-30, and .223??)

[Clovis Man]

.30-06...in the real world you really don't need another rifle for much of anything else, except perhaps for a .22 (so now what should I do with the .270, .30-30, and .223??)

My dad was a big Jack O'Conner fan -- so I grew up with .270's in the instead of .30-'06's. Therefore, keep the .270 instead of anything else!

[Altair]

A good pair of tennis shoes might be a good backup to any weapon you chose unless you are proficient with it.

I was gonna say RUN too

[JayM]

I was gonna say RUN too

You guys are not really serious are you?

bears can run near 35 MPH - that is 109 yards covered in 6 seconds...

I would prefer to watch the impact of my 1700 FPS 350grain 454 casull rip thru the bears head and heart instead of watching the bears teeth rip thru my flesh.

You go ahead and run - I will place 6 rounds into the beast and then reload and do it again, if needed

[El Comanche]

there is a lot of talk about caliber here and not much about ammo and what is effective with bears. With the right ammo like Garrett or buffalo bore, a .44mag can out perform a .454 What you want is a super hard cast round, as heavy as possible with maximum penetration. BB makes a 180g hard cast for .357 that could possibly work as a minimum for black bear. Whether it's a black bear or Grizz, you gotta get though that thick skull or fur. If you don't get a head or spine shot, it will kill you before it dies. For that reason I don't recommend carrying a firearm unless you put the practice in. I do, and feel it is well worth the time and money for the protection it gives.

Also, please don't run from ANY bear, it will only trigger their chase reflex and you will not win the race . . .

[JayM]

your right about the ammo - but I figured too much detail for this forum...

Your specs on the .44 mag are a little incorrect...
I am not trying to start anything here - just the facts on ammo and the energy expectations from it... please accept my applogies if I offend you.

I prefer to load my own and run the Hornady XTP (Rated for Magnum calibers) in 300grain with a Ballistic Coefficent of .180, and a sectional density of .210.
In 300 grain loaded to 1650 fps - produces 1813 ft-lbs of engergy at the muzzle.

Buffalo Bore's hottest 44 mag = Heavy .44 Magnum Ammo - 305 gr.L.B.T.-L.F.N.(1,325fps/M.E.1,189 ft.lbs.)

About a 700 ft-lbs differnce - that is like the addition of 1.5 45 acp energy added to the 454 over the 44.

Even the exact same bullet from Buffalo in 454 = 454 Casull Ammo - 325 gr. L.B.T. -L.F.N. (1,525 fps/M.E. 1,678 ft. lbs.)
is still several hundred ft-lbs short in the energy department.

I hand load for both of these calibers - trying to get a 44mag to equal a 454 will most likely result in a blown up gun.

I do agree with you fully on - don't carry it if you don't practice shooting it.
Any hunting handgunner shoudl be able to put all 6 rounds in a standard paper plate at 25yards.

Again - sorry if I offended you - but handgunning is kind of my thing and I take the numbers seriously

[El Comanche]

no offense taken. As I do not hand load, this is what I carry now: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44hammerheadplusp.html

[JayM]

Wow - those rounds are really pushing the maximum CUP 43,500 is up there - I like their caution... Notice the wimpy Smith and Wesson is not recommended for these rounds...

Maximum CUP on the 454 is 53,800, and they must use small rifle primers instead of large pistol primers. the .223 max CUP is only 60,000.

If you shoot a lot of these - inspect your pistol regularly for stress - I have had a 44 Mag by Smith and Wesson explode on me - S&W ruled it "Metal Fatigue" (now I will not own a S&W)

Also a little know fact... Never shoot these heavy loads with empty cylinders - even if you just have empty shells in the other cylinders keep all the cylinders full - this reduces stresses during firing and recoil - save your pistol

Have you taken any game with these? how is penetration? How is bullet deformation? Some times the Ultra hard cast over penetrate and don't deform or expand well...

I still shoot 44 mag, and I down load them for my wife to have a nice pig pistol, how is the recoil?
A great low recoil round is Hodgen powder "Lil-Gun" about 29.5 grain and a 200 gn Hornady XTP - these run at 1794 FPS and 36,200 CUP muzzle energy is 1429

These penetrate well, but shoots should be keep to 50 yards or under as energy bleeds off fast at range


Sorry folks I kind of hijacked a few posts of this thread...

[Slash McCoy]

A word about running away...

You don't have to be able to outrun the bear. As long as you can outrun your buddy.

[jkingrph]

Get a combo, a revolver and rifle in the same caliber. In the pistol choose the longest barrel you can carry, if allowed. For the rifle, usually a lever action in these calibers, go for a shorter barrel.

In pistol calibers either .357mag or .44 mag, the rifles are a whole different game power wise compared to the pistol. Although I have both calibers for handguns, my 44 are much bigger and heavier and handle recoil better than the smaller more concealable .357. I do not have a rifle in .357, and only one in .44 mag, and it is a Marlin cowboy model, with 24" barrel and tang sights for long range accuracy. I think they have made them as short as 16 or 18 " which would be much handier, but I prefer long barrels. In the rifle the .44 will reach out 125-150 yards easily, and will handle heavier bullets that would give excessive recoil in the handgun.

[Deacon Frank]

Some times the Ultra hard cast over penetrate and don't deform or expand well...

I still shoot 44 mag, and I down load them for my wife to have a nice pig pistol, how is the recoil?

If you're talking defense against bear or other large animals, you don't want expansion anyway. You want total penetration. I really like the Speer 270gr JFN, and Buffalo Bore makes an excellent load using this bullet.

One of the great things with 44mag is being able to step down to 44spl -- like shooting a .22 in a heavy revolver or carbine!

[Ron991]

In an earlier post #133 to be exact, I posted I wanted something that put a-lot of lead down range fast. I did so because in 1978 Ronnie M. Richie P. and myself were bow hunting Elk. in the Northwest Wyoming area near the Teton Wilderness. This was a five day hunt, and for lack of a better word we rented a Mule from a good ole boy who had a small cabin in that area. It cost us $30.00, and a fifth of Old Grandad for the "rental fee" Back packing was not a problem, as we could have easily done that, but if we made a kill it is hard to pole, and or for that matter to quarter an Elk, and hump it out with all our equipment. At any rate we came upon a clearing maybe 200 feet across, and rather than cross, and be in the open we walked the tree line around the clearing. Now out of no where we heard a tremendous roar, and about 25 feet or so ahead was indeed a huge Grizzly Bear. We frooze the mule was going crazy, but we managed to hang on to it. This Bear charged, and stood in front of us at about 15 feet or so. Ronnie, and Richie flanked me, and nocked an arrow. Well this Bear started to stomp on It's front legs 4, or five times. Once again it stood, and I discharged two rounds from the revolver you see above, and that Bear was dead on It's feet. Both rounds hit center mass, and exploded It;s heart. I don't remember what kind of loads I was using at that time being so long ago. This is not something that I was proud at having to do, but by the same token I did not want to tangle with that Grizzly Bear either. Now having said that I would much rather have had an M16, or an AK47.

[Acmemfg]

Had you a .223 (5.56 mm) M 16 I don't think you would be around today to share your tale. The Model 29 is a much better choice.

[Wildalaska]

Unless you can use your revolver to hit a softball tossed at you by Hoyt Wilhem at 45mph, get a 12g with buckshot

[rupertbear]

Uhh, buckshot has no penetration. Little mass, small diameter = no penetration. Go with a slug. If you're using a pump gun, practice so that you rack the slide back so far that it slams into the stop; short stroking isn't something you want to do when the SHTF.

[Wildalaska]

Uhh, buckshot has no penetration. Little mass, small diameter = no penetration. Go with a slug. If you're using a pump gun, practice so that you rack the slide back so far that it slams into the stop; short stroking isn't something you want to do when the SHTF.

Buckshot doesnt have to penetrate, all it has to do is turn the charge. Thats per more than one Alaskan Guide. I know one Guide that uses a buckshot filled 10 gauge to get 'em in the thickets.