I got some traffic tickets.

**dpm802** · 03-07-2011, 09:02 PM

Yeah, I got pulled over last weekend. 3 offences.

Failure to produce Driver's Licence. (I do have my number memorized, and I recited it for the officer.

Illegal Right turn on Red. (The intersection is NOT clearly marked. The NO TURN sign is actually BEHIND you when you sit at the light.)

Careless Driving. (Originally quoted as 44 in a 25mph zone, which I found hard to believe. The officer cut me some some slack and wrote it up as Careless Driving.)

The fines are $180, $85, and $85, respectively. A lawyer wants $350 to represent me. I can represent myself, or just pay the tickets and not have to go to court.

What do you think I should do?

**_JP_** · 03-07-2011, 09:05 PM

Drive carefully.

Really, I'm serious.

**Nasty Canasta** · 03-07-2011, 09:11 PM

I am no lawyer, but I would just pay. People rarely win these cases unless there is some glaring fault on the officers part. You will either be out of $350 paying the fines or $700 + court costs w/lawyer

**life2short1971** · 03-07-2011, 09:12 PM

Pay the tickets and do driving school and there shouldn't be any points.

**DSB** · 03-07-2011, 09:26 PM

Sounds like the only thing you're disputing is the "no right on red." So, is it worth $85 to you to go to court and dispute that charge. . . knowing that you'll probably lose? I'd pay the fine. The judge is not going to have a lot of sympathy when he sees three separate, unrelated violations.

**jd_1138** · 03-07-2011, 09:31 PM

I'd just pay the fines. Not worth wasting time or unnecessary expense on this.

**Leche** · 03-07-2011, 09:32 PM

Represent yourself. The officer might not even show up and then it would probably be dismissed. You are innocent until proven guilty!

The license: This happend to a friend of mine, he explained to the judge he forgot his wallet and provided the number to the officer who ran it and comfirmed he had a valid license. First offense so it was dismissed.

The sign: IIRC in California it has to be posted on the red light, No Turn on Red. Snap a pic and check your laws.

Careless Driving: Your word versus his.

Good luck!

**dpm802** · 03-07-2011, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by DSB

Sounds like the only thing you're disputing is the "no right on red." So, is it worth $85 to you to go to court and dispute that charge? Knowing that you'll probably lose? I'd pay the fine. The judge is not going to have a lot of sympathy when he sees three separate, unrelated violations.

Correct, that's the one I'm disputing the hardest. Back to that in a moment.

The Failure to show DL was a fluke. 1 time out of 1,000 that I left home without my wallet. Coworkers tell me that if all my documentation is proper and paid-up, I can just show my license to the judge and he will drop that ticket. (Knock on wood.)

The "No Turn on Red" is a known problem in that town. When I mentioned it, people knew exactly which intersection I was talking about ... as is the fact that the sign is not visible when you're sitting at the light. Every other No Turn intersection I've ever seen has the sign placed next to the traffic light ... at this intersection, it is on the sidewalk, and when you sit at the light, THE SIGN IS BEHIND YOU!

I've been through that intersection dozens of times, and I never saw any sign that said NO TURN ON RED. If I'd known it were there, of course I would have waited for the Green.

When I stopped at the red light, I looked to see if it was safe to make a turn, then I looked for a sign at the place I normally see signs like that ... HANGING NEXT TO THE LIGHT. When I didn't see any prohibition, I proceeded to make the turn, and then I saw the flashing lights in my rear-view mirror.

So that leaves me with the RECKLESS DRIVING charge ... this is my first moving violation since about 1992. I took a Defensive Driving course last year to lower my insurance rates. I don't know if that's worth anything, but I do intend to mention it to the judge.

**azmark** · 03-07-2011, 09:41 PM

Went to law school and was a police officer so I'll answer two ways. Legal counsel I say as anyone would, it depends. If this is your first offense yes, represent yourself and be honest and show some humility that you were wrong and don't argue the merits of the case. If you have a good driving experience use it as a way to show it was out of character.

You can say that you didn't see the "No Turn" sign because you were in front of it but you should have seen it when you pulled up. The speeding will likely not stand because there is no proof besides the carelessness of not seeing the sign so you can say he dinged you twice. The DL issue should be dropped and only the traffic sign violation should stand.

As a police officer, I'll say if the officer is a vet he'll just sit back and watch you bury yourself in your loss of words if you don't have your story straight. In most cases I wouldn't have ever had to justify myself since probable cause has been established. And you made a mistake, deal with it.

In the end just speak when you're spoken to and the less you talk the better.

**jwhite** · 03-07-2011, 09:45 PM

If you are worried about too many points on your license, or taking a serious hit on insurance, hire a good lawyer. A good attorney will make traffic tickets go away. If you have a clean driving record and are of an age where your insurance is unlikely to be seriously impacted, pay the fines, do the traffic school to remove points, most states have a one time offer for those with a clean record, and move on. Don't bother contesting it yourself, its a frustrating wast of time. Either paying outright or hiring a lawyer, ought to keep you out of traffic court all together.

**rajagra** · 03-07-2011, 09:49 PM

There's an old saying in these parts about driving offences:
"If you got caught, you weren't paying enough attention."

Motorists around the world are prime targets as revenue streams. It is your job to know the rules and drive in a way that avoids falling foul of the laws. They are mostly technical offences (things that can be measured and/or easily proven - the system doesn't like the bother of having to prove "bad driving") so they are in the most part easy to avoid. But once they get you, you are bang to rights.

I doubt it is worth fighting these fines. Is the biggest fine really for not carrying your licence? (Shows how much this is really about road safety, eh?) Hard to fight that since it's most definitely a technical offence and you admit it. As for the others I agree with Leche: check your laws. If you are guilty don't waste time and money fighting it. If there is an legal argument for innocence then decide if it's worth contesting the fines just to get off on the parts you can win.

**ImaWestie** · 03-08-2011, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by dpm802

So that leaves me with the RECKLESS DRIVING charge ... this is my first moving violation since about 1992. I took a Defensive Driving course last year to lower my insurance rates. I don't know if that's worth anything, but I do intend to mention it to the judge.

In NSW, Australia - given all these issues arose from a single incident - your first ticket in 10 years will be written down "on request" to the mob we are meant to pay our fines to.

No questions asked, you say "this is my first fine in 10 years" and they let it go
(well, not quite, I don't think you can get warnings once the speed is too high, or for "driving under influence", and a few other matters).
I'd attend myself (which you will have to anyway) and explain yourself.

Don't tell the mag that you were in the right, they hate that, just explain your situation.

IF you are complaining about signage, bring proof - which may be a lot harder for you to come up with than a legal person.

**haiti222** · 03-08-2011, 03:34 AM

It depends on what you want to accomplish:

Lowest amount of effort- Pay the fine

Lowest amount of money- Go to court. If the officer doesn't show- minimal cost or points. If you talk to the officer and/or prosecutor nicely before court (that this was your first offense in so many years, and you are still surprised what happened), they may lower points or costs on one or more of the tickets (or drop one of them). Results may be minimal or may be ok, but I have found you can get at least a little bit of movement this way on the points usually.

Lowest amount of points (and ultimately lower auto premiums if successful)-

Get a lawyer that does traffic there in that jurisdiction. You will pay him and pay the fines to the jurisdiction, but the offenses in general may be less than what you would have gotten yourself. This will have a higher upfront cost, and less chance of a total dismissal.

**jansob** · 03-08-2011, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by haiti222

Get a lawyer that does traffic there in that jurisdiction. You will pay him and pay the fines to the jurisdiction, but the offenses in general may be less than what you would have gotten yourself. This will have a higher upfront cost, and less chance of a total dismissal.

If you live in a high-insurance area (I used to live in Harris County TX...EEEEEK), then paying a lawyer to make them go away will be worth it. Getting tossed into a high-risk policy can cost thousands.

And the money you pay the lawyer will do twice as much as the fines to remind you to be more careful!

**Kouros** · 03-08-2011, 04:19 AM

Pay the lawyer then sleep better at night.

Right now you're looking at 4-6 points on your license.

Lawyer will knock it down to a "failure to obey traffic device" and 2 points.

Your call.

**Austin** · 03-08-2011, 05:06 AM

Just tell them you were busy texting and did not see the sign.

**DaveNJ74** · 03-08-2011, 05:09 AM

In, NJ? Go to court, hire a lawyer,deal with the prosecutor before you go to the judge. They usually drop the points and just want the $$$. I'm advising you from experience.

**ouch** · 03-08-2011, 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by dpm802

Careless Driving. (Originally quoted as 44 in a 25mph zone, which I found hard to believe. The officer cut me some some slack and wrote it up as Careless Driving.)

Hard to beat this one. This has nothing to do with any safety issues- it's a money making machine for the town, and they're not going to cut you any slack.

Originally Posted by dpm802

Illegal Right turn on Red. (The intersection is NOT clearly marked. The NO TURN sign is actually BEHIND you when you sit at the light.)

You lose this one by your own words. If the sign is behind you when you sit at the light, by definition you had to drive past it as you approached the light. If the sign is there at all, they're not going to budge.

Originally Posted by dpm802

Failure to produce Driver's Licence. (I do have my number memorized, and I recited it for the officer.

I'm 100% behind you, and I can't begin to express how much this bothers me.

That a police officer, a civil servant whose salary is paid by you and who has access to tools that he would have no problem using against you (you can bet he checked for a stolen vehicle, outstanding warrants, etc.), would refuse to use these very same tools to help is unconscionalbe.

You'll beat that one (and it's the biggie), so I'd suggest showing up in court, being polite, and explaining yourself. You may even beat the "no right on red" ticket, since everyone's used to rights on red in Jersey and the judge may just tell you to be more careful in the future. If you get out of there for $100, you're lucky.

Good luck!

**ouch** · 03-08-2011, 05:35 AM

Having read your second post in this thread, I agree you should push the "20 years clean" defense. This appears to be further evidence that the officer was "piling on" charges.

Don't expect to walk out of there without coughing up something, but I would expect a significant reduction in charges.

**dpm802** · 03-08-2011, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by ouch

You lose this one by your own words. If the sign is behind you when you sit at the light, by definition you had to drive past it as you approached the light. If the sign is there at all, they're not going to budge.

This is the one that bothers me the most.

I don't know of ANYONE that reads every single traffic sign ... there's just too much information flying at you when you're driving, and you have to pick and choose those which would apply. The placement, size, shape, and color of the sign looks like it would be "No Parking Here to Corner" or some other non-relative issue.

I did stop at the light. I *DID* look for a sign that said "NO TURN ON RED" and it wasn't there. Every other intersection I've been to has that sign posted right next to the traffic signal, and that's where I looked for it.

If I'd seen the sign, I would not have made the turn, of course.

I've been through this same intersection hundreds of times, and I never saw that sign before. While some intersections are constructed such that you can tell intuitively that it is NO TURN ON RED, this was not one of them.