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Antique muzzleloading shotgun

I have a chance to pick up an antique muzzle loading single barrel shotgun at what seems to me a reasonable price. I am a complete tyro at this, but a muzzle loader seems like such an interesting machine.

So some questions for you more experienced blackpowder afficianados:

Do you actually use the antiques, or just the reproductions? I don't have a fireplace, so no mantle to hang it over and have no interest in it if I'm not going to shoot it (target, maybe skeet or trap? I'd probably only hunt with it if I was going with other blackpowder hunters)

How can I tell if it is actually safe to fire and won't explode? The barrel looks very thin, but then I've only ever dealt with rifles before. However it does seem the muzzle wall is thinner at the top right than elsewhere.

According to the handwritten stickers all over it I don't need a permit to own or display it but no mention of actually using it. A local sporting supply store gave me a number to call to find out about any permits I'd need.

I know two people locally (well, sorta local) who are into blackpowder shooting, but they are both hard to reach. It may be a few days before I can contact them and even longer to prevail upon them to look the beast over.

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49" overall and 33 3/4" barrel. Circa 1870, no name or serial number that I can see. Pretty much all the metal, except for the barrel has engraving. Fairly simple, nothing too fancy. There is what I'm calling a simple 'sunburst' engraved on the top of the barrel

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There are a couple of cracks in the stock, but I can't tell if they go into the wood or are just in the finish. (Don't know why I bothered to tell you that. They don't show in this picture :bored:)

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The bore appears to be 23/32", or 0.71825, a bit small for a 12ga. and a bit large for a 13 ga. It looks like some rust inside the barrel. And there is a bit more where the ramrod guides are welded to the barrel.
 
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Get an expert or two to look at it before you get anywhere near powder! I'm no expert, but there's no way I'd shoot that before getting it refinished. It looks awesome, however. Real bit of history there.
 
A competent gunsmith should give you the OK before you do anything.
You may find other info under the barrel, on the forearm there is a wedge that you can knock out and lift the barrel off the stock.

I would guess you have only a very slim chance at getting an approval to shoot the gun as is, rifles that old are shot regularly, shotgun barrels are so much thinner, corrosion can easily weaken them. A new barrel is an option. Good luck and keep us informed.
 
A competent gunsmith should give you the OK before you do anything.
You may find other info under the barrel, on the forearm there is a wedge that you can knock out and lift the barrel off the stock.

I would guess you have only a very slim chance at getting an approval to shoot the gun as is, rifles that old are shot regularly, shotgun barrels are so much thinner, corrosion can easily weaken them. A new barrel is an option. Good luck and keep us informed.

If we're both talking about the same wedge, it appears to have been soldered in place. And since the antique dealer who owns the gun isn't the one who operates the shop, and apparently is very hard to get hold of, I won't be disassembling it before I buy it. Anyway, the maker's name, or a serial number would only be a help in determining if the price is good, and I'm already ok with the price.

:blushing:Anyway, the cost of the gun is just the beginning I'm sure. Then comes the cost of the "accouterments", and the cost of the NEXT one. I'm sure BPAD (Black Powder AD) is a recognised disorder.:blushing:

The thin, and uneven wall thickness, is a concern to me. When you say a new barrel is an option are you talking about REPLACING the barrel or an insert? The barrel proper and the 'breech' area all appear to be one, with just the hammer and nipple added. I'd be left with the stock and a few pieces of engraved plates screwed to the stock. An insert might be an option if there is one made for muzzle loaders. But all I've seen in an admittedly brief search are short inserts which appear to go in the breech end of breech loaders, and mostly appear to be intended to convert a shotgun to a rifle, although I saw one reference to a 12ga conversion to 410. If I thought I could get a full length one that would seat properly at the hammer end, for about $100, I might just go for it. Somehow I suspect a custom fitted insert would be much more expensive. I'd probably be better off getting into black powder shooting with a modern reproduction.
 
I vote for "wall hanger" - if you want to shoot black powder, buy a contemporary gun designed for a specific powder.

Think about where your head is when it goes off .... Every action has an equal and opposite reaction ...
 
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This photo shows a modern replica broken down.

A new barrel can be fabricated for your gun if you are interested in going that route.
 
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Load her up, strap her to a tire fore and aft and pull the trigger with a string. No gunsmith is going to give you an 'okay' to go ahead and shoot it; any opinion will be so heavily qualified that you will be in no better position than when you started. If the barrel isn't obstructed and you start with a light load, it will likely shoot if the nipple will get the spark to the powder. It would be up to you to increase the load until you get to a point that it would be usable for whatever you want to do with it. Loading it to the max and blasting a goose 60 yards away is likely beyond its capability, but if you just want to shoot it at a can or a clay pigeon you probably could. I would be more concerned about the stock breaking than any type of barrel issue. If not obstructed, the barrel should expel shot. I don't think you'd build up gas like you do with a bullet.
 
I suspect the uneven wall thickness that you see at the muzzle is from ramrod wear. But I'd still think long and hard before I put any powder down the barrel. At a minimum, if you can't find a smith who knows black powder (and who you can trust your life to), is to proof fire it (double load, sandbagged, string around the trigger, you hiding behind a tree). But then failure means a split barrel and you're left with nothing. I vote for wall hanger.
 
I visited a Scotish castle back in 2005. There were dozens of muzzle loaders arranged in semicircles on the walls. When I asked about them, I was told they cleaned and tested them a few years earlier. Many of them still worked. Left me wondering what happened to the others. :blink:
 
A new barrel can be fabricated for your gun if you are interested in going that route.

Thanks Jim. Maybe I can check at the local sporting goods store when they open monday to see if they can recommend a gunsmith, and give me a ballpark $$$ for a new barrel. I'm guessing it will be more than the original cost of the gun itself. I'll call the antique store and see if she's gotten in touch with the seller yet as well.
 
I've been shooting this one for years.I had a gunsmith check it out before I fired it though.Had new nipples put on,new ramrod too.I have shot turkey's,ducks,quail,doves,rabbits,and lots of clay pigeons.

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I have one really old antique I shoot. It's an 1871 Swiss Vetterli, military rifle. Originally for a rimfire cartridge I converted to centerfire and make my 10.4mm(.429cal) brass from cut down .348 Winchester brass. It's a early bolt action repeater. I got lucky with this one, whoever had it over the years really took care of it. The barrel is bright and smooth, no pitts or anything. Actually it looks better than most new rifles.

I have a couple of Swedish Mausers dating back to 1898 and 1900, but those are basically modern rifles, plus a 1911 vintage Parker shotgun.

Your best bet is to have the barrel examined. Actually run a borescope( a fiberoptic viewing device) down and look at it from the inside out. If all else is well, the thinness at the muzzle probably will not cause any problems, however I would not use any heavy loads. Just use it for fun shooting. With black powder the pressure should be decreasing by the time the shot charges gets to the muzzle so it should hold.

I would still vote for the "proofing" Load it up tie it down and fire from a remote location.
 
Load her up, strap her to a tire fore and aft and pull the trigger with a string.

Black powder powered unicycle?


I don't think you'd build up gas like you do with a bullet.

:blink:my wife might disagree:blink:
:w00t:

...proof fire it (double load, sandbagged, string around the trigger, you hiding behind a tree).

Double load? That seems counter-intuitive. Shouldn't I use the progression method elalan suggested, possibly to a bit heavier load than I would ever normally use?


Thanks all, for your suggestions. I'm definitely not going to buy it as a wall hanger. But whether I buy it for target shooting (somehow 'target shooting' and 'scattergun' just don't seem to belong in the same sentence:001_huh:) will probably depend on my being able to contact the couple of guys I know who are into black powder. One I have no email or other contact info on, the one I have email for rarely checks it, although I know he can get in touch with Darren.
 
You won't be able to use it for skeet. Skeet requires you to be able to hold two shells. Plus the time it would take to reload would make a round of skeet last all day.

Bird hunting would be very frustrating. The action is fast and the birds will just laugh at you while you are taking forever to reload.

I would hang it on the wall for display. If you are interested in shooting black powder, I would recommend buying a modern day reproduction. They are fun to shoot. I like to shoot my 1861 Springfield Musket (reproduction). It's fun, but messy and not very convenient. It hangs on my wall for the most part.
 
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Michael,
She has a beautiful stock!
Is it English made?

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That looks like the picture posted by buddydog. It does look very similar to the one I'm interested in, although unless the photo got flipped, buddydog's would appear to be a double barreled one.

They do look quite alike otherwise, if you can tell from my lousy pictures.

So. Buddydog. Beautiful stock! Is it English made?
 
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It is a handsome piece, and you do not need a mantel to have it on your wall.

If you are going to use it have it proofed, there are a few places in the world that still do this. If you are going to proof yourself get in on one of the black powder forums and find out how to do it properly.

The basics are
*measure the barrel carefully.
*start with a reduced charge and fire from a bench, with you behind a bunker wall
*measure the barrel to make sure nothing changed. If anything is distorted, even if only by a few thousandth's, the barrel is compromised and you have a wall hanger.
*repeat with a specific schedule to a specific load based on recomendations I cannot make.

Be safe. If you have your doubts keep this as a decoration and buy a reproduction.

Phil
 
Double load? That seems counter-intuitive. Shouldn't I use the progression method elalan suggested, possibly to a bit heavier load than I would ever normally use?

You'll want some safety margin over whatever load you will be using. Hence the double load. But you could certainly follow Pkrankow's suggestion and go more slowly. My point is that, if all goes well, you'll not want to stop increasing the load until you have a comfortable margin of safety over what you will typically be using.

If you want some more advice, go to http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com and ask about or search for barrel proofing.
 
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