Celluloid rot?

I have been looking for information on celluloid rot. I have a blade from ebay with a coffin box with some light active rust on the part between the scales. It is a Wade and Butcher blade.

I have learned:
*Celluloid can outgas acetic acid giving a vinegar smell.

*Celluloid outgasses acetic acid more under heat, and less when cool, and signs of this can be exacerbated by an enclosed space (coffin box)

*Acetic acid can effectively cause rusting of steel if not neutralized.

Now, I cannot post pictures now, (I can try tomorrow) but the scales are translucent and dirty. There is no obvious crystallization. They appear in good shape, but I have not cleaned anything yet.

What is the best way to clean these scales without removing them, and how do I determine if the celluloid is "rotting" and is better off removed and replaced with something else?

Phil

Feel free to slap me about with links to other reading.

I am not committed to these scales for the long term, but in the short term this razor is for honing practice, and I do not want to rescale it at this time.

Phil

I recall speculation that celluloid rot is contagious. Might be complete nonsense, but I suggest you quarantine the razor (from other razors) until you get a better answer.

It is my only celluloid razor. The two others are acrylic and bone. It is in a separate container in the same closet.
Phil

Pkrankow said:

It is my only celluloid razor. The two others are acrylic and bone. It is in a separate container in the same closet.
Phil

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It's contagious in that the off gasses will rust all your blades if they are stored together. If they are rotting get rid of them. One bad apple and all that.

Cell rot isnt shy. If you clean the blade, store it, come back and it has rust between the scales its celluloid rot. I've never seen a cure for it besides chucking the scales, but perhaps immersing the scales in something basic would neutralize it for a period of time. Just try not to get the base solution on the blade.

Pete_T said:

Cell rot isnt shy. If you clean the blade, store it, come back and it has rust between the scales its celluloid rot. I've never seen a cure for it besides chucking the scales, but perhaps immersing the scales in something basic would neutralize it for a period of time. Just try not to get the base solution on the blade.

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I will throw the whole kit in a bit of ammonia and water (blade and all) and then clean up the blade. I need to clean it still. I use a vinegar bath neutralized with ammonia followed by dish soap on ironwork all the time with excellent results to remove rust and prepare for further treatment.

Phil

According to a pen forum, use of ammonia on celluloid can cause discoloration.

http://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/106971-cleaning-celluloid-pens/

Glad I don't care much about these scales.

I have them soaking in a warm solution of 1 oz ammonia and 1/2 gallon water. I know this solution will not harm the steel.

I will consider this a success if the celluloid is not brittle and the blade does not develop rust in a short period of time. (say 30 days?)

The scales are a pretty green though.

Hmm...apparently ammonia is a solevent in processing celluloid. This may be problematic. I will pull them in 10 minutes, which will be 1/2 hour.

Phil

short term results:

1) celluloid swelled some from immersion in warm ammonia water. The material is still flexible.

2) active rust washed off blade. Blade is near polished where the active rust was. I have only seen ammonia remove very light surface rust, and the rag does more work.

3) color faded from scales. They were translucent light green, and now are translucent white. I wonder if the water having a brown layer at the bottom is related to this.

I would say that for my short term purposes this experiment is a success.

If the razor does not rust while allowing for honing practice then all is in order. The blade is open and drying I will leave it out a couple days so the scales dry most thoroughly.

Phil

Honed, "shave ready" and going to be used tomorrow. It is in a sock from Superior Shave. The scales had almost no odor of any kind, but the sock is not in a closed container.

It has a coticule edge on it...my first attempt ever honing a razor on a coticule, and I only spent 30 minutes working on it.

Phil

I was going to mention that I'd expect some discoloration, but I forgot.

So the ammonia bleached all the color out of the scales all the way through? Do they pretty much look ok, or the same, except a different color, or do they look crappy? I'm surprised they stayed translucent, I would have expected them to look frosted.

Pete_T said:

I was going to mention that I'd expect some discoloration, but I forgot.

So the ammonia bleached all the color out of the scales all the way through? Do they pretty much look ok, or the same, except a different color, or do they look crappy? I'm surprised they stayed translucent, I would have expected them to look frosted.

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They look ok, not great, compared to before the ammonia. They were somewhat frosted so they look pretty much the same except for color.

Phil

Dull.

It was able to top arm hair last night, and not this morning. The blade is quarantined until I figure out what I am going to do. It was my first time honing a razor, and I am still learning the shaving and stropping, but doubt I screwed it all up that badly. It was much, much, MUCH sharper last night.

Phil

If it is cell rot, you should know in about 2-3 weeks if kept enclosed. I restored a Satinwedge that I suspected had cell rot (sanded and cleaned the scales and complete blade work).

I kept it in a thiers-issard leather holder for 2-3 weeks and sure enough there was some rusting on the blade between the scales. Just keep it in quarantine for a couple weeks and you should know.

That's too bad Joe, I remember that one. I hadn't heard what resulted from the quarantine. At least you should be able to salvage the embellishments for the rescale.

Harvitz81 said:

If it is cell rot, you should know in about 2-3 weeks if kept enclosed. I restored a Satinwedge that I suspected had cell rot (sanded and cleaned the scales and complete blade work).

I kept it in a thiers-issard leather holder for 2-3 weeks and sure enough there was some rusting on the blade between the scales. Just keep it in quarantine for a couple weeks and you should know.

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Should I stick it back in the coffin box for that period of time? Seems like a smaller enclosure would accelerate the rusting, which would be good for getting this identified.

Phil

Munxcub said:

That's too bad Joe, I remember that one. I hadn't heard what resulted from the quarantine. At least you should be able to salvage the embellishments for the rescale.

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Yeah, I dissolved the old scales in acetone and have the inlays now. Just need to make some scales and redo the blade. Someday I'll get to it....

Pkrankow said:

Should I stick it back in the coffin box for that period of time? Seems like a smaller enclosure would accelerate the rusting, which would be good for getting this identified.

Phil

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Coffin box would work. Check on it after each week and if after a month it is fine, I'd say you are in the clear.

Harvitz81 said:

Yeah, I dissolved the old scales in acetone and have the inlays now. Just need to make some scales and redo the blade. Someday I'll get to it....



Coffin box would work. Check on it after each week and if after a month it is fine, I'd say you are in the clear.

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Shame about the other razor.

I am hoping that my honing job was sub par and not celluloid rot because I am not prepared to make scales right now. I am prepared to learn to hone.

Phil

I am going to make (but haven't got around to it yet) a set of plain BS scales that I can use microfasteners on to hone up and test ebay specials of shave ready edge taking abilities before spending the time cleaning them up. Or if I have a blade I am dying to try but don't have scales for I can puke these on quick as a temporary deal.

The blade turned yellow. I am going to call it rotten scales. I will take pictures of it before I remove the scales and dispose of them.

The box has a strong smell of what I think is camphor, but it doesn't smell quite right.

Phil