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Tapered Wedges

There is a very informative and helpful thread that "legion" started in regards to making your own scales. It is here. In it there was some general talk about the wedge. There were a few comments about tapering the wedge and I wholeheartedly agree. However, I started this thread as a separate topic so as not to derail all the good information that was over there on that one. While the discussion on making scales could easily include a sidebar on wedges, I felt I might qualify as a poacher to have interjected a more detailed discussion about them. Hence, everyone can provide their own take on wedges on this thread.

Let me just say, up front, that most of the wedges you will see on vintage razors have been tapered either slightly or acutely. They did it for thousands upon thousands of razors for a lot of years. It must have been done for a reason. I submit that this is one time that thinking outside the box by making them parallel isn't going to be all that beneficial.

I have seen several novice restorers make the mistake of putting in parallel wedges. Some of them, no doubt, have their own theories for doing it. One theory is probably that they don't have the equipment. Another theory is that they don't know how. And the third theory is that they don't see it as a problem to begin with.

Don't get me wrong, having a parallel-sided wedge isn't the end of the world, but, you haven't discovered Atlantis either. I'm also not trying to bust anyone's chops. Just because a razor looks good, doesn't mean it is functional, or will remain functional for very long. I'm merely trying to pass on the fact that wedges need to be tapered.

The exception, as there is always an exception, is that a tapered wedge is not needed if it is almost the same thickness as the tang up there near the pivot pin. If you do put in one of the thicker wedges, you will most probably need to put in a third pin to prevent the blade from swinging all the way through the scales.

If the parallel wedge is thin and the tang is thick, the razor will not stay together for any length of time. Something will definitely give. You will either grow a gap at the forward edge of the wedge between the scales, or the scales will snap up there where the scales have to make a big dog leg around the tang and to the pivot point. This is not true of some of the modern plastics, as they are more flexible and they kind of develop a memory allowing them to adapt pretty well to the stresses they come under. The scales that will never make it are the ones that are lined, very stiff, or too thick for the application.

View attachment 138709
 
Thanks for a great write-up on the wedges!
I've found this video very helpful:
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gdau4m_4x-U[/YOUTUBE]

I have a sneaking suspicion that we just might know the guy who recorded it :tongue_sm
 
IMHO to get the wedge just right it has to have same taper angle as the tang.
As far as equipment is concerned , taper can be done very consistently even by hand on sandpaper.
 
Thank you Bill! I knew there had to be real reason for the tapered wedge and you have given one. The diagrams are helpful!
Respectfully
~Richard
 

Legion

Staff member
IMHO to get the wedge just right it has to have same taper angle as the tang.
As far as equipment is concerned , taper can be done very consistently even by hand on sandpaper.

Yeah, I actually think they can be made more accurately by hand because you are going slowly and can keep checking it.

Thanks for the info Bill. I started tapering wedges when I began doing restorations, mainly because that is how you and other experienced makers were doing it, and I did not think I should try to reinvent the wheel. After doing a few scales I saw how important it was for distributing the stresses in the right way, so the load on the scales as they flex does not cause them to break.

Taper your wedges guys, it is worth the little extra effort.
 
IMHO to get the wedge just right it has to have same taper angle as the tang.
As far as equipment is concerned , taper can be done very consistently even by hand on sandpaper.
You could be on to something, there. I suppose that when the razor is straight, with the blade stretched out fully, the matching taper of the wedge would coincide with the taper of the tang. I'm not sure how much it would affect the razor when it is any other position. My own rule of thumb is to make the angle of the wedge so that the spread of the pivot end of the scales opens to a distance of about 1/4 inch wider than the thickest part of the tang.

You can just use your fingers to pinch the two unpinned scales to the wedge and position the blade against one side of the pivot hole and adjust the wedge angle to make a 1/4 inch gap. This would provide a 1/8 inch spread on each side of the blade after the butt of the razor was pinned to the wedge. This slight gap flexes the scales outward just enough to prevent the thick part of the tang from rubbing too hard against the inside of the scales as they are closed.

Any engineers in the crowd may be able to help with this conversation by putting it in better words than I did.
 
IMHO to get the wedge just right it has to have same taper angle as the tang.
As far as equipment is concerned , taper can be done very consistently even by hand on sandpaper.

You could be on to something, there. I suppose that when the razor is straight, with the blade stretched out fully, the matching taper of the wedge would coincide with the taper of the tang. I'm not sure how much it would affect the razor when it is any other position. My own rule of thumb is to make the angle of the wedge so that the spread of the pivot end of the scales opens to a distance of about 1/4 inch wider than the thickest part of the tang.

You can just use your fingers to pinch the two unpinned scales to the wedge and position the blade against one side of the pivot hole and adjust the wedge angle to make a 1/4 inch gap. This would provide a 1/8 inch spread on each side of the blade after the butt of the razor was pinned to the wedge. This slight gap flexes the scales outward just enough to prevent the thick part of the tang from rubbing too hard against the inside of the scales as they are closed.

Any engineers in the crowd may be able to help with this conversation by putting it in better words than I did.

Very interesting. I've always made tapered wedges and recommended them (sig line) but when I've made them I've never had that thought Mainman mentioned but it makes sense, I guess I just got lucky. Now has there been any experiment with the wedge length? I use Mr. Ellis' recommendation of 1/8 of an inch from wedge to blade but I could have a 1/2" wedge (probably extreme example) but that would seem awkward looking. But is there a minimum and maximum length or is it just depends on what fits?
 
Very interesting. I've always made tapered wedges and recommended them (sig line) but when I've made them I've never had that thought Mainman mentioned but it makes sense, I guess I just got lucky. Now has there been any experiment with the wedge length? I use Mr. Ellis' recommendation of 1/8 of an inch from wedge to blade but I could have a 1/2" wedge (probably extreme example) but that would seem awkward looking. But is there a minimum and maximum length or is it just depends on what fits?
I can usually just grab a set of scales from a selection of different styles I had already completed. They are pretty much all around 5.5 inches long. I try to keep pins right around 3/8's of an inch from the both ends of the scales. It's not a hard rule, but it seems to be a good distance for function and aesthetics. Pins placed too close to either end looks, to me, amateurish and out of balance.

With the blade being used as a compass point from the pivot hole, I swing an arch about a sixteenth past the tip of the blade directly onto the inside of one scale. This is the forward edge of the wedge. That eighth inch I told you about is also valid. I gave that measurement to benefit the guys who may be uncomfortable working with closer tolerances. The closest you can get to the wedge with the tip of the razor, the better it looks... to me. Thatta-waaay, you don't have a continental kit hanging off the end of your razor to house the wedge. Extra long butts are just plain unsightly.

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You do need to have a long enough wedge to provide an adequate shelf for the scales to remain secure and stable. The example above would naturally have to be a bit longer than a razor butt that was squared off. Care must be taken that the hole that goes through the wedge is not too close to the forward edge of the wedge. That causes separation at the very butt of the razor when peened tightly in place. A minimum distance, I'd say, needs to be around 3/32nds. But, shoot for 1/8th. I've even been known to shorten a blade tip by a sixteenth to accommodate a killer set of scales.

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As far as that other thing about proportional angles between wedge and tang, I think I'm going to experiment with something I have in mind and then get back to you with the findings.
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This thread is awesome Bill, thanks for putting it together. It's nice to have some numbers to start with instead of just eyeballing it to what looks ok.
 
Very informative post Bill! Thanks a lot for this great contribution.

I began tapering my wedges from the get go as that seemed standard practice, especially since every vintage razor has a tapered wedge there must be some reason for it.

Love the explanations and detailed drawings. Hopefully I'm getting to the point on some of my restores that they don't look so amateurish anymore, but I still have a ways to go.
 
Thank you for this write up Bill. I've always tried to make my wedges tapered. Previously, I bought some premade scales early in the restoration learning curve that didn't have tapered scales. The seller said that they weren't necessary and also that there was too much hype over tapered wedges. I will never buy from him again and I don't need to now that I have learned to make my own scales. I was using my vertical grinding wheel to make wedges using double sided tape but now I think I'll do it by hand like "Legion" suggested in his writeup. Thanks to everyone for all the great knowledge I have acquired on this forum.
 
There is a very informative and helpful thread that "legion" started in regards to making your own scales. It is here. In it there was some general talk about the wedge. There were a few comments about tapering the wedge and I wholeheartedly agree. However, I started this thread as a separate topic so as not to derail all the good information that was over there on that one. While the discussion on making scales could easily include a sidebar on wedges, I felt I might qualify as a poacher to have interjected a more detailed discussion about them. Hence, everyone can provide their own take on wedges on this thread.

Let me just say, up front, that most of the wedges you will see on vintage razors have been tapered either slightly or acutely. They did it for thousands upon thousands of razors for a lot of years. It must have been done for a reason. I submit that this is one time that thinking outside the box by making them parallel isn't going to be all that beneficial.

I have seen several novice restorers make the mistake of putting in parallel wedges. Some of them, no doubt, have their own theories for doing it. One theory is probably that they don't have the equipment. Another theory is that they don't know how. And the third theory is that they don't see it as a problem to begin with.

Don't get me wrong, having a parallel-sided wedge isn't the end of the world, but, you haven't discovered Atlantis either. I'm also not trying to bust anyone's chops. Just because a razor looks good, doesn't mean it is functional, or will remain functional for very long. I'm merely trying to pass on the fact that wedges need to be tapered.

The exception, as there is always an exception, is that a tapered wedge is not needed if it is almost the same thickness as the tang up there near the pivot pin. If you do put in one of the thicker wedges, you will most probably need to put in a third pin to prevent the blade from swinging all the way through the scales.

If the parallel wedge is thin and the tang is thick, the razor will not stay together for any length of time. Something will definitely give. You will either grow a gap at the forward edge of the wedge between the scales, or the scales will snap up there where the scales have to make a big dog leg around the tang and to the pivot point. This is not true of some of the modern plastics, as they are more flexible and they kind of develop a memory allowing them to adapt pretty well to the stresses they come under. The scales that will never make it are the ones that are lined, very stiff, or too thick for the application.

View attachment 138709

Does this come from your recent restoration of a jillian Wapienicas? (I know what that top down look is.... :biggrin1:)
 
Is there a limit or ratio of the difference between a non tapered wedge and the width of the spine, before any damage happens? Hopefully that made sense...

I have a W.H. Morley and Sons "Hollow Ground" and it seems that the wedge is parallel. The wedge is aprox. 1mm thick throughout, and the width of the spine on the other end is about 3mm thick. The scales are celluloid I think. Is this not enough of a difference to cause any problems?
 
Is there a limit or ratio of the difference between a non tapered wedge and the width of the spine, before any damage happens? Hopefully that made sense...

I have a W.H. Morley and Sons "Hollow Ground" and it seems that the wedge is parallel. The wedge is aprox. 1mm thick throughout, and the width of the spine on the other end is about 3mm thick. The scales are celluloid I think. Is this not enough of a difference to cause any problems?
Sounds like you are just fine. Two things are helping you. There's not much difference in the thickness the scales have to bend around and the celluloid adapts pretty well to the slight variation. There is a straight section of scale for half its length as you look at the ventral side, though. Right? 5/8's razors don't have as much meat to them to cause the kind of damage I was referring to. The ones I was mostly talking about were the ones that guys make for the big W&B's and the honkin' Filly's. Most of those are a full 1/4 inch thick. If you had a 1mm parallel wedge in that set of scales, you'd definitely have some issues.
 
Getting back to the anomaly regarding the relationship between tangs and wedges that mainaman talked about. It seems that, after a shop field test of sorts, his theory holds a lot more water than I initially wanted to put in the pail. I'm glad I decided to give it some thought an a few simple tests before discounting the hypothesis.

Initially, I thought that his premise may just have been a haphazardly lucky guess of sorts. I'm glad I didn't jump the gun and discount the possibility of his statement. I figured that the idea might have worked on his razor, and maybe one or two more, but not too many more.

I field tested many razors and discovered that the correlation between the angle of the tang and the angle of the wedge work quite nicely together. Below are pics of 5 different razors. I am pinching the scales against the angle of the tang on all of them and, as you can see, there is that nice gap I was telling you about at the end of the scales. How 'bout that?

View attachment 139316

View attachment 139317

View attachment 139318

View attachment 139319

View attachment 139320
 
Sounds like you are just fine. Two things are helping you. There's not much difference in the thickness the scales have to bend around and the celluloid adapts pretty well to the slight variation. There is a straight section of scale for half its length as you look at the ventral side, though. Right? 5/8's razors don't have as much meat to them to cause the kind of damage I was referring to. The ones I was mostly talking about were the ones that guys make for the big W&B's and the honkin' Filly's. Most of those are a full 1/4 inch thick. If you had a 1mm parallel wedge in that set of scales, you'd definitely have some issues.

Ah yes, I figured that there wasn't a big enough difference in the thickness of the wedge vs spine width. Yes, I can see the straight section that you are talking about. I figured that my razor was ok, on account that it had already been around for 70+ years! :laugh:

But then, by that same logic, couldn't one simply make an incredibly thick wedge, to compensate for a thicker spine? aside from having a large space between the scales, would it cause any other problems?
 
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