So close...

I'm trying to bring my honing to the next level, and I could use some help. Currently, I can set a bevel and get an edge to the point where a hanging hair will violin off the blade, but not catch. It'll shave, but not comfortably. I can follow it up with a CrOx strop and get to the point where HHTs will split hairs. The shave is pretty comfortable, but still not as good as I've gotten from a razor from a honemeister. Also, these edges don't last long. Maybe 3 or 4 shaves tops. In comparison, I recently got a new shave ready razor from Martin that I took a full two weeks (shaving with it every day) before I touched it up. Even after 2 weeks, I could get HHTs to at least catch.

So, I have a few questions and am asking for any other general advice to help improve my skills. For starters, I have a natural Coti/BBW, a Naniwa 3K/8K and a Naniwa 10K. Based on what I've read, I'm confident the issue here is the honer, not the hones. All hones are lapped and chamfered.

Okay, here it goes...

1. I'm under the impression that if I can get a solid edge off a hone, it will last longer than a pasted strop. Is this a correct assumption?
2. I've started focusing on my Naniwas figuring that there's enough variability in the Cotti/BBW that it may be complicating things unnecessarily. My ultimate goal is to perfect the coti, but I'm thinking I would be well served to focus on something a little easier and predictable, get my honing skills up a notch and then pursue the Coti. Is this a sound approach?
3. I realize a HHT is not the definitive test and doesn't even guarantee a good shaving edge, but it at least seems to indicate that I'm in the ballpark. I have yet to prefer an edge that doesn't pop hanging hairs. That said, at what point should I realistically (for a beginner) be able to pass this test? Should I expect to achieve this on the 8K and not advance to the 10K until I do? Should I even expect this on the 3K? Or is this something I probably won't see until the 10K? Remember, I’m a beginner.
4. Based on some other advice, I'm considering getting a paddle strop and some 1 micron and .25 micron diamond pasts to ensure I can get a quick and easy comfortable edge. I’ve got 3 razors, all of which I’m trying to get a preferred edge back on. I’m thinking it would be nice to have a quick, easy way to get a good edge on at least one or two of the razors. At $150, is this good advice?
5. I've heard all manner of advice on moving from one hone to the next based on feel. Comments like, "a hone will feel different on the blade when it has given all it has to offer." Can anyone be a little more precise for a newbie? For the sake of example, how would Naniwas respond? Does the blade glide more easily? Does it actually start to feel stickier? I realize I need to develop a feel, but I need to at least get in the ballpark while I seek out this feel.

Thanks in advance for your advice.

I'll do my best to help you out.

mbrossar said:

1. I'm under the impression that if I can get a solid edge off a hone, it will last longer than a pasted strop. Is this a correct assumption?

Click to expand...

I've found this to be the case for me with CrOx. It gives a keen edge, but Ive found it seems to wear off quickly.
I don't know anything about edge longevity as I am constantly re-honing blades.

mbrossar said:

I've started focusing on my Naniwas figuring that there's enough variability in the Cotti/BBW that it may be complicating things unnecessarily. My ultimate goal is to perfect the coti, but I'm thinking I would be well served to focus on something a little easier and predictable, get my honing skills up a notch and then pursue the Coti. Is this a sound approach?

Click to expand...

I'm done recommending that anyone start with a synthetic. Start with whatever the heck you want. Coticules (at least the recently mined one I have) aren't any harder to use than messing with several different hones, soaking, lapping, trying to figure out if you are at the point to move on.
Whatever you chose to learn with, just stick with it until you feel you've got it. BTW Coticule.be, Bart's site, covers everything you need to know if you chose to go the coticule route

mbrossar said:

I realize a HHT is not the definitive test and doesn't even guarantee a good shaving edge, but it at least seems to indicate that I'm in the ballpark. I have yet to prefer an edge that doesn't pop hanging hairs. That said, at what point should I realistically (for a beginner) be able to pass this test? Should I expect to achieve this on the 8K and not advance to the 10K until I do? Should I even expect this on the 3K? Or is this something I probably won't see until the 10K? Remember, I’m a beginner.

Click to expand...

I've found the HHT to be a bit of a problem. It provides tons of feed back as to where you are, but it takes a consistent sample, and quite a bit of time to learn to read it. And with that said, lately I've noticed that with my sample, I'm coming off the stone with a bare violin on one type of hair, so I have to hunt down a different sample (which usually involves swearing and dirty looks).
But, I've gone as far as to stick one end of the scales in an ear and drag the hair across the edge. You'd be amazed at what you can hear that way. just because it doesn't "pop" doesn't mean it's not telling you something.(before stropping, mind you)

mbrossar said:

Based on some other advice, I'm considering getting a paddle strop and some 1 micron and .25 micron diamond pasts to ensure I can get a quick and easy comfortable edge. I’ve got 3 razors, all of which I’m trying to get a preferred edge back on. I’m thinking it would be nice to have a quick, easy way to get a good edge on at least one or two of the razors. At $150, is this good advice?

Click to expand...

In my books, I'd rather buy another Coticule. There are cheaper options. Gary Haywood turned me on to the TI razor paste, and I've been having good success with it, as it doesn't seem as harsh on my face as CrOx. There are some gents that like the edge off Diamond pastes, though there is frequent mention of them being harsh. I think there are tricks to deal with that though.

mbrossar said:

I've heard all manner of advice on moving from one hone to the next based on feel. Comments like, "a hone will feel different on the blade when it has given all it has to offer." Can anyone be a little more precise for a newbie? For the sake of example, how would Naniwas respond? Does the blade glide more easily? Does it actually start to feel stickier?

Click to expand...

Stickier is as good a word as any.
I just recently tried to use my nani 12 k to do a bit more than it was capable of, and I could truly feel when I wasn't getting anywhere. Try honing past the point where you would normally go to the next hone and pay attemtion to how it's tactile feedback changes. I think it's pretty hard to convey through my keyboard exactly what to look for, but there is a definate change in the way it feels that can best be experienced, not described, even with a million words.

One thing I learned was that with slurry, my coti leaves a perfect, pristine bevel that is perfect to take to another hone. Try working with slurry to the point you feel that you've done all you can, (by diluting) then try using your Nani's in the progression, and go back to your coti with water for 20, or 30, or 40 very light strokes. It's kind of cheating, but while I was struggling to learn to Dilucot properly, it provided a fantastic edge to shave with.
But the best advice I can give: Practice, practice, practice! Don't become discouraged by a lack of HHT, but take it to the strops, and even try a part shave with it. It might not be great, but you'll surely learn something from it.

Good luck!

I think my experience learning to hone was typical. I read extensively, and was left helped by what I read, but confused at the same time. I don't think there are shortcuts to just learning thru experience.

I use the TPT a lot up to the 12K. After that, I use the HHT aggressively. But, it took a lot of use of the TPT and the HHT before I developed a sixth sense for what the blade was doing.

As an aside, there was a thread on StraightRazorPlace.com recently about using fishing monofilament line to standardize the testing of edge sharpness. While the replies pretty much shot down the use of monofilament line, and other standardized filaments and fibers, I am experimenting. I believe there is a possibility that we can at least do better than the HHT. Not perfect, but better.

At the least, if we have a standard piece of fiber of some type, we might be better able to describe the action of a sharp edge. Even if approximate, it will be better than the "just do it until you get that sixth sense" reply we give now.

Thanks guys. A lot of times, I feel like I'm learning to shave all over again. I'm reliving bad shaves, getting frustrated, being ready to quite, etc.

I'm starting to wonder if my problems are stemming all the way back to setting the bevel. If I follow Bart's advice and dull the blade prior to starting on a bevel. Should I consider the bevel set as soon as it cuts arm hair albeit badly or should it cut arm hair relatively well? Just wondering if I'm trying to progress through the process too quickly.

On another note, for new honers (or if you recall your early days), how long did it take you to hone a razor from the bevel setting stage? It's tough to gauge sometimes watching videos of Bart, Martin, Lynn, etc cranking out blades. I recall when I started with a straight my shaves took me 45 minutes. Now they take me 15-20. Probably the same deal with honing, and I just need to reset expectations.

On a final note, I was watching Jockey's video on Straight Razor Place and he mentioned a phenomenon of developing a wavy edge if you don't keep your blade flat on your hone all the time. While I don't think I've horribly allowed my blade to tip to the side much, I am a newbie and my technique is not perfect here. I wonder if this is an issue I'm facing and that it is very difficult to recover. Anyone hear of this phenomenon? Any suggestions how to detect it? Any suggestions how to get past it (e.g. does starting over setting the bevel do it or does it take more advanced honemiester skills [i.e. I should send my razors in to ensure I have a solid bevel and just work on touching up my blades])?

The day we quit learning is the day we die, or some such over-used cliché
I'm still firmly in the "new honer" category, but what I've found is that my time spent at it is just like you described with the shave, I'd spend an hour plus with one blade. Now, once, I timed myself and did it in 12 minutes.... normal for me is more like 30 minutes. I could probably do it faster but what I'm finding is that the extra time ensures good success every time. I might be able to do it in less time, but I don't feel my results would be as consistent.

As for shaving arm hair at bevel setting( after the down-stroke), I usually start to check at about 2 full sets of 20 half-strokes. I seldom am quite there yet, but often I get a sense that I'm getting closer by the sensation or pressure needed. If by 4 or 5 sets, I'm not seeing any real result, I'll often dilute my slurry a bit and try a couple more sets, thinking that I may have reached the limit with the particular density of slurry I started with. At that point, it's pretty much a given that I've removed enough steel that I'm probably dealing with either a very hard razor or too thick slurry. A few dilutions and rechecking will almost always show some improvement, so I just move through dilutions from that point.

As for keeping the blade flat... it's vital! (I assume you mean lifting the spine?) Every time the tip of the bevel and not the flat side come into contact with the stone, some amount of damage occurs. In my case, it just came with practice. When I was very first starting, it would happen quite frequently; it was probably my biggest hold-back to getting it right out of the gates.
Just practice, it's the only cure.

wdwrx said:

I'll do my best to help you out.

I've found this to be the case for me with CrOx. It gives a keen edge, but Ive found it seems to wear off quickly.
I don't know anything about edge longevity as I am constantly re-honing blades.

I'm done recommending that anyone start with a synthetic. Start with whatever the heck you want. Coticules (at least the recently mined one I have) aren't any harder to use than messing with several different hones, soaking, lapping, trying to figure out if you are at the point to move on.
Whatever you chose to learn with, just stick with it until you feel you've got it. BTW Coticule.be, Bart's site, covers everything you need to know if you chose to go the coticule route

I've found the HHT to be a bit of a problem. It provides tons of feed back as to where you are, but it takes a consistent sample, and quite a bit of time to learn to read it. And with that said, lately I've noticed that with my sample, I'm coming off the stone with a bare violin on one type of hair, so I have to hunt down a different sample (which usually involves swearing and dirty looks).
But, I've gone as far as to stick one end of the scales in an ear and drag the hair across the edge. You'd be amazed at what you can hear that way. just because it doesn't "pop" doesn't mean it's not telling you something.(before stropping, mind you)

In my books, I'd rather buy another Coticule. There are cheaper options. Gary Haywood turned me on to the TI razor paste, and I've been having good success with it, as it doesn't seem as harsh on my face as CrOx. There are some gents that like the edge off Diamond pastes, though there is frequent mention of them being harsh. I think there are tricks to deal with that though.
Stickier is as good a word as any.
I just recently tried to use my nani 12 k to do a bit more than it was capable of, and I could truly feel when I wasn't getting anywhere. Try honing past the point where you would normally go to the next hone and pay attemtion to how it's tactile feedback changes. I think it's pretty hard to convey through my keyboard exactly what to look for, but there is a definate change in the way it feels that can best be experienced, not described, even with a million words.

One thing I learned was that with slurry, my coti leaves a perfect, pristine bevel that is perfect to take to another hone. Try working with slurry to the point you feel that you've done all you can, (by diluting) then try using your Nani's in the progression, and go back to your coti with water for 20, or 30, or 40 very light strokes. It's kind of cheating, but while I was struggling to learn to Dilucot properly, it provided a fantastic edge to shave with.
But the best advice I can give: Practice, practice, practice! Don't become discouraged by a lack of HHT, but take it to the strops, and even try a part shave with it. It might not be great, but you'll surely learn something from it.

Good luck!

Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better. Well covered Chris . but, I would stick to Naniwas for now...They are easy to learn. Cotis require some time to get the fell for.

You may want to supplement your Naniwas with a 1k, a 5k and a 12k. These stones are easy to learn on. If the bevel is off, it will take you a long time to pass HHT or even TPT. Make sure the bevel is there and even.

Try to concentrate on naniwas and send someone to test your coticule.
After that you will know when to use your coticule.
You should be able to get pretty good edge from 10k naniwa
I think by using pastes etc you are making your edge almost overhoned stage.
That is why you are unable to shave long enough. Your edges doesn't last longer.
Some people are perfectionist they want to get out of the more then blade can give.
Martin's blades edge should help you a lot. see how sharp it is and try check it out under magnification see how it looks like.
hope this helps.
gl

wdwrx said:

I assume you mean lifting the spine

Click to expand...

No, actually I mean tipping it to the side just a bit. I keep it pretty flat nowadays, but when I first started, I would tip it one way or the other.

mbrossar said:

No, actually I mean tipping it to the side just a bit. I keep it pretty flat nowadays, but when I first started, I would tip it one way or the other.

Click to expand...

How wide is your coticule? A narrow one will certainly teach you how to keep the blade flat on the hone very quickly. Don't take that as me saying to go out and buy another one, though! If you're not sure if your strokes are flat, I would also recommend the marker test. I found that it helped me with working on my stroke. I also find that using a heel-leading stroke helps me to keep the spine and bevel on the stone, especially on a coticule that gives lots of feedback.

As far as how long it took me, it used to take me hours when I was using Nortons. It took me less time when I started on a coticule, although I had the advantage of having experience on Nortons and DMTs.

By the way, if you have a recently quarried coticule, a picture of the top and one of the side might help us to identify what vein yours is from and might give us clues as to how yours behaves. But regardless, if you've having trouble getting enough keenness using a coticule, it helps to slow down and do more dilutions. You can speed up once you get more experienced with your stone.

Mike, do you mean that the scales drop, the point lifts, and the blade pivots across the edge of the stone?
If so, I've done this, and not noticed that it affected anything. That's exactly why chamfering the edges of your stone is recommended.


I second Danjared's request for photos!
If it's a modern Coticule, it is very unlikely that you will have any issues with it being unable to provide a nice edge. Wether that edge is fully to your tastes or not is a YMMV thing.

Guys,
Thanks so much for your help. So, a few things...

1. Yes, when the blade's not flat, it's typically the scales are tipping down ever so slightly. I used to do it more before than I do now. It's very slight when it happens now, and I correct for it pretty fast. Being a newbie and not quite having this down yet, I worry about every little thing.
2. My coti is 50mm x 175mm, so it's a little narrower than my Naniwas, but not narrow by any means.
3. Pictures are attached. It is newly mined. I got it from the Ardennes quarry, but they didn't give me a pedigree on it.
4. Thanks for the tip on listening to the hair through the scales. I can definitely hear it go tic-tic-tic as it catches and releases its way along, but being a rank novice, I can't really assess beyond that. However, since it's at least grabbing at the hair, is that a good indication that the bevel is at least sound?
5. Any other tips on ensuring the bevel is set well and even? I don't have a measuring device for something so delicate and so small. Upon visual inspection, it appears to be even. I have a 20x jeweler's loupe. Again, it looks even, but I can't compare each side side by side, so it's difficult to know for sure.

My guess is La Dressante au Blue. I am by far not an expert at identification, though. I recommend checking out the evaluations of the hones in the Vault on coticule.be to see what other La Dressante au Blues are like (assuming that's what it is). My understanding is that they leave a mellow edge, though, which sometimes can be confused for not sharp enough. And if the edge is not quite there, it could indeed not be sharp enough (although still mellow), but you can definitely get there and get both sharp and forgiving. I would suggest trying unicot to see what your coticule is capable of.

Ah ha! I'd put money on that being a La Dressante au Blue.
(I just love playing guess that vein)
The one I have puts a very nice edge on my razors.
I find it's not uncommon for me to have to go back to a very, very light slurry (literaly no more than 1 up and down rub with the slurry stone. it should be almost invisible) and do another long slow dilution, say 6 or 8 more. Then rinse the stone and razor and do 2 sets of half strokes and lots, say 50, of nice light x-strokes.

If you take the edge to that's playing violin to the strops does the HHT improve? When you've got that violin playing, it means you are really closing in.
BTW, what hair are you using? Would you call it fine or corse? I find that it's much more difficult to get a reading from very fine hair. If you can get any kind of "catch and pop" off even the thickest hair, you are in the ball park. After that it's just finesse. It sounds as if you are just ... just.. just about there.
There is at least one little trick to try if you are desperate: oil. A light machine oil, or mineral oil, even a recent attempt I made with glycerine seemed to give a bit of a boost to it. You can try a bit of shaving lather too.

Unicot! Yes! Unicot will do it.
Our esteemed brother Jared has nailed it.
good call.

(now, why didn't I think of that...)
I never think to do unicot unless someone actually tells me to.

Here is a thread on Coti.bewhere a real pro discusses a La Dressante au Blue:http://www.coticule.be/the-cafeteria/message/7751.html

mbrossar said:

I'm trying to bring my honing to the next level, and I could use some help. Currently, I can set a bevel and get an edge to the point where a hanging hair will violin off the blade, but not catch.

Click to expand...

Hi Mike. I think I am following your honing adventures from the day they started. I recognize much of my own roaming "honing land" when I started out, in your posts.
When the edge starts to ring by dragging a hair over it, you are nearly home. It's just matter of finding that last bit of desired keenness. The hone you use to get that, doens't matter. Once there, it's easy to put different finishes on it, and find out what you really like.

mbrossar said:

It'll shave, but not comfortably. I can follow it up with a CrOx strop and get to the point where HHTs will split hairs. The shave is pretty comfortable, but still not as good as I've gotten from a razor from a honemeister. Also, these edges don't last long. Maybe 3 or 4 shaves tops.

Click to expand...

That matches my early experiences exactly. 3 or 4 good shaves, and then more pasted stropping, and less good shaves with each next pasted touch-up. I know not everyone shares that experience, but that's how it turned out for me and my beard. As soon as I could manage to get the desired edge from a hone, I never really looked back. A couple a weeks ago, a very generous gentlemen who wrote a book about straight razor shaving (in Dutch) gave me an amazingly build loom strop and told me he swears by it. It has Dovo red paste on it. His razors touch the pasted side before each shave for only a few laps. I'm trying his approach, done about 7 or 8 shaves now, and the more I do it, the less I like the results. It's as if I'm revisiting my first year of straight razor shaving all over.

mbrossar said:

[*]I'm under the impression that if I can get a solid edge off a hone, it will last longer than a pasted strop. Is this a correct assumption?

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Probably depends on your beard type, but see my response above.

mbrossar said:

[*]I've started focusing on my Naniwas figuring that there's enough variability in the Cotti/BBW that it may be complicating things unnecessarily. My ultimate goal is to perfect the coti, but I'm thinking I would be well served to focus on something a little easier and predictable, get my honing skills up a notch and then pursue the Coti. Is this a sound approach?

Click to expand...

Why would it not? Just stick with one solution, as Chris suggested, and it'll fall together sooner or later.
Since you're on the Naniwas right now, my advice is to do whatever you do to get that "violin" sharpness. (without using pastes of course). Next, take your Naniwa after soaking in for 20 minutes in clear water. I know some say it's not necessary. After it is well soaked, it should not feel mucky at all. Start doing very light X-strokes, and test your edge every 30 strokes. Expect to do 100 or more, but at some point, the edge will start to sever hanging hairs. In the beginning it'll be short to the holding point. Once it passes that test, just add 10 more light X-strokes and test again. Keep doing this, till you find no further improvement. Don't worry about overhoning. You won't, just keep your 10K covered with water, and mind the pressure.

mbrossar said:

[*]I realize a HHT is not the definitive test and doesn't even guarantee a good shaving edge, but it at least seems to indicate that I'm in the ballpark. I have yet to prefer an edge that doesn't pop hanging hairs. That said, at what point should I realistically (for a beginner) be able to pass this test? Should I expect to achieve this on the 8K and not advance to the 10K until I do? Should I even expect this on the 3K? Or is this something I probably won't see until the 10K? Remember, I’m a beginner.

Click to expand...

In my experience, you'll get a responding HHT at a low level, when the edge is maxed out on a 1K hone, and has the saw tooth pattern typically found at that grit-size, to aid with the cutting performance. This HHT is typically a "drag and pop", without much finer readings possible. And it requires a clean, somewhat coarse hair. Coming off 1K synthetic hones, it can be used as an indicator that the bevel is set, certainly when the result was not present earlier on. Popping hanging hairs on this level is a clear sign that the very edge is responding to your hone, and thus both bevel sides are flat and fully developed.
It does not work for bevel setting on your Coticule, because of the absence of teeth on that hone. That's why I recommend the pre-dulling trick for inexperienced Coticule honers.

At the intermediate grits, the HHT typically vanishes, because the sawtooth pattern dissipates, and the edge now needs to rely on it's bare keenness to sever a hair. You'll only see it emerge back around 8-10K.
For that reason, the HHT tells different stories, coming of different hones. I know that a positive HHT straight off a Coticule indicates a very promising edge. I don't know if the same statement counts for all hones. On my Chosera 10K, the HHT works well as an indicator too.

mbrossar said:

[*]Based on some other advice, I'm considering getting a paddle strop and some 1 micron and .25 micron diamond pasts to ensure I can get a quick and easy comfortable edge. I’ve got 3 razors, all of which I’m trying to get a preferred edge back on. I’m thinking it would be nice to have a quick, easy way to get a good edge on at least one or two of the razors. At $150, is this good advice?

Click to expand...

Personally, I wouldn't bother. You have everything you need to get a great edge. More gear is nice to explore possibilities, once you can confidently use what you already have. But it won't solve any of your problems. It only adds more stuff to the equation, and that can distract you from practicing with one setup till you get it right.

mbrossar said:

[*]I've heard all manner of advice on moving from one hone to the next based on feel. Comments like, "a hone will feel different on the blade when it has given all it has to offer." Can anyone be a little more precise for a newbie? For the sake of example, how would Naniwas respond? Does the blade glide more easily? Does it actually start to feel stickier? I realize I need to develop a feel, but I need to at least get in the ballpark while I seek out this feel.

Click to expand...

In all honesty, I am completely insensitive to that kind of differences in feel. That doesn't mean that I don't believe that some guys really put such talents to good use for honing razors. I can't hear the difference between a C and a D either, but that doesn't keep my from playing my guitar.

Kind regards,
Bart.