How much magnification is useful?

**Aloxite** · 09-28-2010, 02:13 PM

I'm looking at USB microscopes at Dealextreme. There are two that I am looking at.

The first one is 20-200x magnification and 2 megapixels.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.41186

The other one is 20-400x magnification but only 1.3 megapixels.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.41844

I pulled out an ancient Tasco microscope that I got when I was a kid. The edge at 150x magnification seemed to show all sorts of detail that would be useful. I'm just wondering if the trade off of more magnification at lower resolution is worth it. Thoughts?

Edit - I just noticed that the 20-400x scope is backordered. I went ahead and ordered the 20-200x 2 mp version. I'll take some pictures of the progression of the edge as I hone a razor.

**mainaman** · 09-28-2010, 04:15 PM

30x will show you everything you need to see.

**mdunn** · 09-28-2010, 04:23 PM

yeah, i can see more than enough on my $5 ebay 60x loupe (and because its so cheap, i doubt it really is 60)

**Legion** · 09-28-2010, 04:30 PM

+1 on the $5 ebay 60x loupe. Handy little thing.

**Wid** · 09-28-2010, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by legion

+1 on the $5 ebay 60x loupe. Handy little thing.

I was just looking on ebay, there's a ton of them. Any recommendations to which one to get?

**Aloxite** · 09-28-2010, 05:39 PM

Good to know. 20x-200x should be pretty useful then. It looks like a pretty cool setup for $44. This might be a fairly useful tool for learning how to hone. I can post pictures of each step of the honing operation and maybe get some feedback online.

**mdunn** · 09-28-2010, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Wid

I was just looking on ebay, there's a ton of them. Any recommendations to which one to get?

mine had a little UV/white LED module attached.

PM me some ebay links if you want me to have a look-see

**mainaman** · 09-28-2010, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Wid

I was just looking on ebay, there's a ton of them. Any recommendations to which one to get?

I sue this one and it works great for me
http://cgi.ebay.com/30X-Illuminated-...tem33613da581=

**Legion** · 09-29-2010, 01:41 AM

Originally Posted by Wid

I was just looking on ebay, there's a ton of them. Any recommendations to which one to get?

Looks like this

**professorchaos** · 09-29-2010, 06:40 AM

You don't need to use magnification, touch and sight will tell you everything you need to know. A loupe of some sort will help while you get the hang of things.

**petr** · 09-29-2010, 07:19 AM

I want to see what is going on!

Is the issue about over honing?

Seems to me that without being able to see the edge I want to start over and reset the bevel ... when it may not need to be that aggressive.

How much time am supposed to fart around with polishing an edge that really needs to be taken to lower grit?

Clarity seems important.

**crankymoose** · 09-29-2010, 07:26 AM

I got a Belomo 10x loupe that works quite well, I had a straight I started shaving with a few weeks ago I knew immediately something was wrong as it was painful although it had been properly stropped and I couldn't see anything with the naked eye the loupe showed a microchip on it that was the culprit. I may get a Belomo 20x but that 10x does work real well.

**professorchaos** · 09-29-2010, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by petr

I want to see what is going on!

Is the issue about over honing?

Seems to me that without being able to see the edge I want to start over and reset the bevel ... when it may not need to be that aggressive.

How much time am supposed to fart around with polishing an edge that really needs to be taken to lower grit?

Clarity seems important.

Of course you want to see what is going on! And I'm not suggesting otherwise - I used a 20x loupe. I did a poor job of saying: use a loupe to accelarate learning how to hone. Yet also take the time to learn how to assess an edge with the naked eye, TNT, TPT, by feel on the hone and - after a while - you won't need the magnification.

**wdwrx** · 09-29-2010, 08:13 AM

I currently use a very good lab quality MS, but less and less. When starting out, I found it invaluable, less so now. It's kind of a pain to lug it out and set up the lighting.....

I am starting to contemplate the idea of getting a cheaper USB 'scope, or a camera thingy for the one I have because I think having a photo of the edge during different stages would help. It's tough to compare the image one is looking at with the image one is trying to recall.... or maybe my memory is just fading as I get older....

**jendeindustries** · 09-30-2010, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Aloxite

I'm looking at USB microscopes at Dealextreme. There are two that I am looking at.

The first one is 20-200x magnification and 2 megapixels.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.41186

The other one is 20-400x magnification but only 1.3 megapixels.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.41844

I pulled out an ancient Tasco microscope that I got when I was a kid. The edge at 150x magnification seemed to show all sorts of detail that would be useful. I'm just wondering if the trade off of more magnification at lower resolution is worth it. Thoughts?

Edit - I just noticed that the 20-400x scope is backordered. I went ahead and ordered the 20-200x 2 mp version. I'll take some pictures of the progression of the edge as I hone a razor.

Those are links to the Veho USB scopes. I have both of them, and for what they are, I find them good enough. A plastic illuminated 100x is easier and cheaper to use while you hone, though. If you want to post decent enough pictures or share via emails or PM's, then having either of those Vehos are good for the job.

Here is a picture off the 200x. It's a kitchen knife at about #320 grit.

Off the 400x, here is a before and after shot of a razor finished on 10k chosera and a 30K shapton glass:

Before:

10K Chosera:

30K Glass:

**chess1** · 09-30-2010, 06:05 PM

for razor
20x--100x is the max to use.
more then 100x just too much magnification. 1 point gets so large you just see perfect bevel in fact your edge may be in bad condition.Please note i mention bevel.
All above pictures you are seeing bevel not the edge.
gl

**SliceOfLife** · 09-30-2010, 06:20 PM

I use up to 400x. Above that it gets REALLY hard to focus in properly. At 100x you can't see the details of a lot of stones. At 400x, there are no secrets. The most useful thing is seeing tiny bits of pitting. I'll hone an eBay razor that looks clean, shave with it and wonder why it feels rougher than that finish should, take a 400x glance and notice tiny microchips from pitting along the edge. 5 minutes to rebevel and hone the clean steel and it's where it should be.

To borrow Tom's image... You see the abrasion patterns on the bevel (vaguely useful) and the edge (Very useful). The bevel pattern gives me a wide range. I can tell 1k from 10k there. I probably couldn't tell 10k from 30k there. The EDGE however is what matters to me after finishing. You can see the tiny microchip I've arrowed on this picture. Those exist at 400x. I've seen Seraphim post some .1 micron (or something crazy like that) film finishes at 400x, and even they have some tiny examples of this. However, if you see them much bigger than that, you've got work to do. 8k, 12k, those look like saws at 400x. Once you get into the really high end finishers you start seeing a fairly smooth edge with a few "chips" in it that are really just the bottom extreme of the finishing tool's grit.

**Aloxite** · 09-30-2010, 08:47 PM

Excellent photos and information SliceOfLife. I appreciate that very much.

**jendeindustries** · 09-30-2010, 08:59 PM

Good assessment Slice of Life.

That's why I prefer to use the hand held plastic jobber when actually honing. I like the 100x, as it keeps me honest. Positioning the razor under the USB scope at just the right angle can be difficult. At 200 or 400x, the slightest movement can throw everything off. In that picture, I had the ceiling fan on, and I could see the variation the slight wind had on the picture.

So Sham, am I getting anywhere closer to honing as well as you can?

**SiBurning** · 09-30-2010, 10:11 PM

Just for reference, since you already purchased it...

Although it seems counterintuitive, you actually want more pixels at lower magnification. The reason is very simple. You're seeing more stuff--looking at a larger area.

As LessLemming said, to see more detail, you need a higher numerical aperture (NA). Magnification has nothing to do with that. Until you get better NA, talking about more pixels is a waste. The good thing about loupes is they tend to have decent optics. The small size makes it relatively cheap to put decent lenses inside. I'm sure you can find crappy ones, but decent ones are pretty cheap--cheaper than that camera.

I'm curious to see how much detail these things show. If someone could take a clean picture of a known size, or include a scale, or just take a picture of a feather DE blade bevel with one of these. Use the highest image size and don't resize it. If necessary, crop it to fit reasonably in this page, and mention the original image size, or just post a link instead of the larger image. Also include the "magnification" factor used. It'd be interesting to guess at the resolution and NA from that.