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Euro vs Japanese kitchen knives- a primer

So what's the big difference between our old faithful trusty German knives and these new on the scene Japanese knives we're seeing?

Well for starters - just about everything! :biggrin1:

Sure you can take a quick glance at a German chefs knife and a Japanese gyuto (Japanese version of a western chefs knife) and think they're almost the same but look a little closer and you'll see some differences.

The first major difference is in the thickness of the cross section. A German knife (Henckels/Wusthof) would be a broad sword compared to what many people refer to as a Japanese light saber. Yeah - it's that big of a difference. :thumbup1:

Then looking at the profile you'll notice the German chefs knife has a great amount of curve to the belly making it more of a rocking knife. The Japanese gyuto is based off of the French Sabatier pattern chef's knife that uses a flatter profile along it's length.

This is a German chef knife profile...
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This is a Japanese gyuto profile...
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You can see that the Japanese knife makes contact to the cutting board along it's length in a much greater size patch than the German knife does. This means more product is cut per slice. Also, the Japanese knife is shaped with a gentle roll coming off of the flat section going up to the tip as compared to the large roll of the German knife. The Japanese knife is lifted less (or not as high) as the German knife needs to be thus making a bigger knife seem smaller and certainly making any size knife more efficient.


From here we need to look at the make up of the knives from things that we can't see...

Hardness
German - 54-58 Rc
Japanese - 60-64Rc

Steel
German - Mystery Meat
Japanese - Fine grained steels made exclusively for the cutlery industry.


Then we have a couple of other things to note...

Blade Grind
German - Symmetric
Japanese - Asymmetric

Blade Styles
German - Maybe 20
Japanese - At least 200


Hopefully you've gained a little insight into the basic differences between German and Japanese knives.
 
A little about Blade shapes and names-

Gyuto- The gyuto is the Japanese equivalent of a chef's knife. The profiles are very similar. On the whole, gyutos tend to have less belly (or curve to the cutting edge) and tend to be thinner and lighter than their western counterparts. Gyutos are all-purpose knives and if you're only getting one knife for your kitchen, this would be my recommendation. You can do everything with a gyuto (and i have). Gyutos generally come in a variety of sizes ranging from 180-360mm. The most common sizes are 210mm, 240mm, and 270mm. I generally recommend 240mm for home cooks unless your space is cramped, in which case 210mm may be a better fit. I personally use a 270 gyuto and find it to be very comfortable. If you are a comfortable cook, you may want to consider a 270mm gyuto.

Here's a picture of a Wa-Gyuto
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Petty Knife- A petty knife is a Japanese version of a paring knife/utility knife hybrid. Depending on the size you choose, it may be more paring knife like or more utility knife like. Petty knives come in sizes ranging from 100mm to 210mm. The most common sizes are 120mm and 150mm. 120mm feels very much like a pairing knife. Its small, nimble, and easy to use. It can be great for fruits or other small cutting tasks. 150mm feels a little more like a utility knife. It can also be used for fruits and small cutting tasks. I've even used that size to debone chicken or trim silver skin and fat off of meat. These are very useful knives and if i had just two knives I'd have a Gyuto and a petty.

Here's a picture of a Wa-Petty
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Sujihiki- Sujihiki are slicing knives. They are long, narrow knives with great profiles for slicing. They generally come in sizes from 210mm-360mm, the most common sizes being 240mm-300mm. These are great knives for slicing meats of all kinds, fish fillets, carving turkey, and so on. Some people even use them as all purpose knives, as the short blade height causes less food to stick to them. I have found the most useful size to be 270mm. Its enough length to make long slices through just about anything. Recently, I've found a lot of people prefer the 300mm size as they are working with large roasts and the extra length helps them slice through in one clean slice.

Here's a picture of a Wa-Sujihiki
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Santoku- Santoku are rather recent inventions. They are a hybrid between a gyuto and a nakiri (vegetable knife). They generally have blunt noses and relatively flat edges. Many home cooks are comfortable with these kinds of knives and especially the sizes they come in. They generally come in sizes from 165-180mm.

Here's a picture of a Wa-Santoku
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Nakiri- Nakiri are vegetable knives. They come with a moderately tall blade height, squared off tip, and very flat edge. They are great for dicing, mincing, and julliannes. The flat edge makes it very easy to get consistent cuts. Nakiri tend to be very thin behind the edge so as not to wedge too much. Though they may look like cleavers, the way they are used is completely different. Instead of hacking away at foods, you employ a forward thrusting motion, where the edge stays parallel to the cutting surface. The knife is thrust forward (away from you) while also moving down toward the cutting surface (in a rather diagonal fashion), then back up and all over again.

Here's a picture of a Nakiri
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(The wa-gyuto, wa-petty, wa-sujihiki, and wa-santoku are all from the Suisin INOX Honyaki series. The Nakiri was made by Nakaya Heiji)
 
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I've had my Hattori HD 270 gyuto and 105 petty for 4 years now and they are pretty much the only 2 knives I ever use, even though I have a 7" Mac Gyuto (SA70) which is a pretty nice blade. Somehow they inevitably get taken on a house of horrors ride through the dishwasher every once in a while :angry:

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I'd like the Chinese inspired Japanese crafted chef's knife for $400.
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Solid VG10 stainless steel blade (HRC60). Hand contoured Linen Micarta Handle
Blade length 220mm Blade Width 110mm Blade Thickness 2.5mm Total Weight 500g
 
I'd be most interested in usage techniques of a chef's knife vs. a gyuto.

As stated above, a gyuto is basically the Japanese version of a Euro chef's knife - two differences that I'm aware of:

The first is that most gyutos are lighter, thinner and have a harder, more brittle, edge than most Euro chef's knives. This means that, unlike the Euro chef's knife, you shouldn't use a gyuto for hacking through chicken bones, as there is a chance you could chip the edge. If you look at the various styles of Japanese knives, you'll see that they have many more types of highly specialized knives (slicing knives, butchering knives, meat knives, vegetable knives, etc...) than there are Euro knives (the main types being chef's, paring, slicing, etc.). My view is that the gyuto is much more of a slicing style of knife, while the Euro chef's knife sacrifices some slicing effectiveness (by having a thicker, wider, more curved blade) in exchange for being able to tackle more of the rough stuff.

The other big difference I see is that, typically, Euro chef's knives have more belly or curve towards the tip that allows a rocking motion. On the other hand, gyutos typically have a straighter blade profile (but certainly more curved than the very straight slicing knives), which typically facilitates more of a slicing motion than a rock-chop. This is easily adapted to, but is a difference that may matter to people depending on their style.

Hope this helps.
 
I have both styles, the gyuto and a German chef's knife. Horses for courses I think. If I'm slicing things finely it's the Japanese knife. When I have some serious preparation such as hacking root veg for stews, chopping herbs, garlic etc, then it's the German (or a very old carbon steel Sab I have that someone was throwing out) The German, being heavier, is better for cutting the roots and also the rocking motion is great for chopping herbs and garlic.

Gareth
 
I seem something missing from here, and maybe you owners can comment; I've read that a major difference is that japanese blades are beveled on one side only (that part was covered by the OP re: non-symmetrical grind) AND that it's sharpened at a 15 degree angle, unlike western blades that are sharpened at a 30 degree angle.

This means that you need to avoid using draw-through knife sharpeners made for western knives, and use a different method to sharpen besides. Seems like a pretty important point, so I thought I'd bring it up. Is this correct?
 
Traditional Japanese knives are single beveled with a blade/bevel ratio of 100/0 @ about 15deg

Western style Japanese knives are asymmetric with blade/bevel grind ratios of 60/40, 70/30, 80/20, and 90/10 @ about 10-15deg

European/American knives are symmetrically ground at a blade/bevel ratio of 50/50 @ about 20deg


Pull through sharpening devices are made to work only with symmetrically ground European style knives. The will severely screw up Japanese knives of all types as they will change the ratio grinds, grind at the wrong angle, and likely also chip the edge in the process.

So yes this is important to note, thanks. :thumbup:
 
well i love my henkles chefs knife and office knife i also have my cheap and cheerful victorinox bread,fish and boneing knifes
i have worked as a chef for nearly 8years now and have played around with some other chefs global japanese knifes (with permission of course) and have to say i prefer my heavy euro knifes.

i suggest with proper care and regular use of a steel and good wheatstone you can cut perfect fine slices. like most things in life skill is often more important than equipment

i suppose its just a personal thing but i wouldnt change them for the world
so a vote for euro ones here.
 
P

Pjotr

So are the cutting edges on Japanese knives handed too? I.e. can you get knives with the bevel on the other side? I'm a lefty and although I've gotten used to it, even the standard right handed bread knife is a bit of a pain.
 

ouch

Stjynnkii membörd dummpsjterd
So are the cutting edges on Japanese knives handed too? I.e. can you get knives with the bevel on the other side? I'm a lefty and although I've gotten used to it, even the standard right handed bread knife is a bit of a pain.

If you're talking about true single bevel knives, you can get them left handed, but at a cost- usually a 50% upcharge.

As a lefty, I'm sure you're used to using right handed products without a thought, unlike righties who will bawl like a baby when handed a left handed tool.
 
I guess I will join in and say that after a couple years of reading and researching and waiting I bought a set of Shun Classics 2 or 3 years ago and I absolutely love them. I actually just got them back from getting sharpened about and month ago and just about went crazy for the 2 weeks they were gone. I can't recommend them enough.


With that said though, I am about to buy a Victorinox 8" chefs as well because the shuns are very brittle and did get a couple tony chips in them. They were able to get them out when sharpened though, but to try and avoid that in the future I will be using the Victorinox when disassembling chickens or working around bones on other cuts.
 
P

Pjotr

If you're talking about true single bevel knives, you can get them left handed, but at a cost- usually a 50% upcharge.

As a lefty, I'm sure you're used to using right handed products without a thought, unlike righties who will bawl like a baby when handed a left handed tool.

I guess my question is based on an assumption that Japanese knives with the off-set bevels are particularly for right-handed folk. I'm just not sure about the reason for the different bevels other than introducing a "handedness" which for a leftie is fine when you're cutting bread or anything soft but could be awkward if you're fine slicing hard vegetables. As a leftie you'd have to hold the knife at an angle to the object you're chopping and that I'm sure would not have been the intented design objective of a Japanese knife.

Having gone through it constantly myself, the right-handed bawling is sort of understandeable, it's the complete lack of comprehension that amazes me.

"What? Moulded left-handed scissors. What a load of rubbish"
"OK, here's a pair. Try'm"
"Christ that f..... hurts"
"No it doesn't"
 
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I hope this doesn't sound as jerkish as it does in my head, The German knives are actually French knives (style) made in Germany. Was beaten in my head in culinary school.

The main difference is use. The French knife for chopping never leaves the cutting board in a rocking motion. The Japanese is lifted off the board in a tapping motion if that makes sense.
 

Alacrity59

Wanting for wisdom
I hope this doesn't sound as jerkish as it does in my head, The German knives are actually French knives (style) made in Germany. Was beaten in my head in culinary school.

The main difference is use. The French knife for chopping never leaves the cutting board in a rocking motion. The Japanese is lifted off the board in a tapping motion if that makes sense.

This does not sound jerkish at all . . . but I do think the Germans, the French, and the Japanese make knives that work for chopping and slicing. Through a group buy here I picked up a Japanese knife that is all about lifting off the board and chopping . . . a Nikiri . . . thin sharp blade . . . just rockets through . . .

I think the slicing award must go to the Japanese . . . but for the knives especially designed for it. There is . . . I was going to say very little . . .sliced thinner than the fish and ginger . . . dicon radish use for sushi.

That being said . . . I think some salmon and ham slicing knives we westerners have used for generations but don't regularly think about would probably do a fine job with sushi as well.

I must admit I mostly slice most every thing . . . with the exception of hacking apart quarters of chicken or joints of beef . . . it is a style of cutting that is very forgiving. I can tell. . . however . . . when I have a very sharp knife in hand . . . it drops through the outside of a pepper with very little effort . . . and etc.


Boning knives are a separate discussion . . .

I guess I sound a bit lost . . .

To simplify . . . I like sharp knives . . . and now there are probably four knives that I use for 90% of what I do . . . probably 75% on the Japanese side . . . just because of the light weight and durability of edge
 
I would go for Japanese knives any day. However I recently spotted some Solingen knives on sale in a nearby supermarket, I'm very tempted :w00t:
 
Another vote here for the Chinese chef's knife! Mine is a simple carbon steel make from the local Chinese supermarket. It is taper ground from 3mm by the handle, to less than 0.5mm at the other end. This makes it really nice for thin slicing, it doesn't get stuck in vegetables like most 'westernised' versions of the Chinese chef's knife and it also means that the balance is much more manageable than if the same thickness was used throughout the knife.

I don't have a problem using carbon steel for a kitchen knife - some say that it is sacrilege not to use stainless but if you keep the knife dry after you wash it then you won't have any problems. Same goes for my camping/bush knives too!
 
Tomato..tomahto
Potato...potahto

Henckels...all quite old. Work very very well.

Cutco...guess I was a easy sell for the college kid (we both went to the same university and I'm sure that was a factor). Nice enough but not a Henckels. Still use them every day though.

Grohmann Canadian Blades..NOT a kitchen knife but you would be amazed how much use they get in there

Commercial kitchen knives (don't kid yourself, the stamped steel/plastic handles offerings from CBI, Sysco, and Dexter are the mainstay of most large kitchens. Your average line cook doesn't show up with $500 worth of VG10 steel blades).

I own them all...I use them all

Blade shapes from 9" chefs knife, 9" butcher knife, 8" chefs knife, 6" wide blade chefs knife (really nice recently acquired Henckels), 6" sandwich-utility knife, 4" paring knife, 3" paring knife, two (2) 7" Santoku knives....egad, I could go on forever; there is a plethora more equipment in the cutlery section of my world.

Point???

Although I own quite a few knives and all are great in their own way...I usually find myself using the same 3 or 4 almost exclusively. Anyone else find themselves in the same conundrum??
 
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