B&B group buy for Japanese kitchen knives**Update post 307**

[Alacrity59]

I think I was committed to purchase a new knife the moment Jim announced this group buy. If I recall . . . I suggested that maybe a few different knives could be offered . . . so we could choose our own spot to try a Japanese blade. The other thing I think I said was . . . that I thought sharpening / tuning seemed to me to be worth $30.


my expectations have been exceeded

I've ordered 3 . . .

Gyuto
Petty
Nakiri

I am very much looking forward to trying these knives. I feel a bit sad that my present knives . . . as sharp and reliable as they have been for the last 20 years may find their way to a drawer only to be pulled out when folk want to help chop veg for Christmas dinner.


Mike

[Jim]

First, thanks to Jim, Jon and Dave for putting this together. Beautiful knives ...

Second, any thoughts on the overall usefullness of a sujihiki (and appropriate length) in a home kitchen? I have a 240mm gyuto that I find very comfortable in my kitchen, but 270 seems to a small sujihiki ...

Don't know that I need a suji, but man, those are calling to me!

I have a 285 and a 300 mm Sugi and use them both with great results.
The ability to pull cut a 12 inch brisket in one pass really makes a nice presentation of the carved meat. I find turkey and hams are no match either.

[JBroida]

First, thanks to Jim, Jon and Dave for putting this together. Beautiful knives ...

Second, any thoughts on the overall usefullness of a sujihiki (and appropriate length) in a home kitchen? I have a 240mm gyuto that I find very comfortable in my kitchen, but 270 seems to a small sujihiki ...

Don't know that I need a suji, but man, those are calling to me!

A lot of it is about what you are comfortable with. I've used 270mm sujis for years and i like that size very much. I rarely come across something that the extra length would help me cut better (and if i do, i have 300mm+ knives). Latel, it seems like more and more people want sujis in 300mm. If you're comfortable with it and have the space, why not? It cant hurt. But i personally prefer the 270mm-285mm size. (my personal favorite to use currently is a 285mm one done by a custom maker- Butch Harner... but you guys are probably more familiar with his razors)

[pauls51]

Thanks Gents for putting in the hard yards

As a newby to the knife world I am looking at a Ikkaku 240 Gyuto and was wondering how long does a knife like this last without needing any maintenance, or how often would i need to send it away to be sharpened??? (assuming everyday use in a domestic kitchen?) I understand the question warrants a "How long is a piece of string" answer, but what would be your educated guess?
Also, what is shipping internationally worth? Specifically to Australia? Is this insured?

Sorry for the newby questions and thanks in advance for your help!

[JBroida]

Thanks Gents for putting in the hard yards

As a newby to the knife world I am looking at a Ikkaku 240 Gyuto and was wondering how long does a knife like this last without needing any maintenance, or how often would i need to send it away to be sharpened??? (assuming everyday use in a domestic kitchen?) I understand the question warrants a "How long is a piece of string" answer, but what would be your educated guess?
Also, what is shipping internationally worth? Specifically to Australia? Is this insured?

Sorry for the newby questions and thanks in advance for your help!

I think i might leave this one for Dave, but let me just say this... Why not learn how to sharpen for yourself. In the long run, it will be far less expensive, all of your knives will be sharper, and you will have developed a useful skill. Its really not that hard.

Back to the specific knife for a second, its always on a scale. If you become really used to super sharp knives and you are really in touch with the feeling of the knife, you may want to sharpen every day or every few days (but just on a super fine stone after the knife already is sharp)... you may find it goes for a week before you are no longer happy. For most home cooks, i would imagine you could get between 1-3 months of happy easy cutting out of a knife like this, but there are things you can do to help. There are some glass and/or ceramic rods that work well for maintaining some knives. If the steel is too hard it wont work well (in fact it will likely cause more damage), but for this Ikkaku, a smooth steel should work just fine to extend the life of the edge. Also, stropping can be used to keep an edge sharp. It wont work forever, and at some point you will need to sharpen the knife again, but it will bring back a super sharp edge a few times (assuming you arent abusing the blade).

(thats my SHORT answer )

[DaveMartell]

I'm thinking of going with a carbon steel blade. I have a couple water stones that I have used on my stainless steel knife. That went ok but only on the courser grit side. It was pretty tough to get a decent edge. Based on what I'm reading I should have an easier time maintaining the edge of a carbon steel blade with the water stones, correct?

Yes and no or maybe so as they say.

In most cases (as a very general rule) carbon is friendlier to the sharpener. Feels better to work with and often the steel is a small grain pattern which likes to take on a keen edge as well as offer good edge retention. That's not to say that some stainless steels aren't as good or better because they can be, it's just a general sort of thing that most users seem to agree on that carbon steel is preferred to sharpen. As to being easier? Again....maybe.

How often will I need to sharpen the carbon steel blade with a stone? I use my knives maybe 3-4 times a week.

This is an impossible question to answer. I've probably been asked this one 10's of thousands of times and still have nothing to say. It comes down to the knife (steel/heat treat/Rc value), the edge applied (coarse/polished/flat/convex), the cutting board used, the frequency of use, the food types cut, your knife skill (& style), and even how the knife is washed & stored. I wish I could be more specific but it's just impossible.

Also, based on what I was reading the honing steel that I use with my knives now is unnecessary with the Japanese carbon steel blades, correct? Is that the case with the Japanese stainless steel blades as well?

If this steel is grooved then yes don;t use it on a Japanese knife as it will likely damage the hard thin edge.

If it's ceramic or smooth steel then it might not be unnecessary and you may want to use it, however, you may choose to use it differently. I would say it shouldn't be used every time you use the knife and should only be used when you feel the edge starting to not perform as it once did or maybe when it doesn't do a specific job good enough.

Carbon & stainless - the principals of maintenance are the same.

[DaveMartell]

Thanks Gents for putting in the hard yards

As a newby to the knife world I am looking at a Ikkaku 240 Gyuto and was wondering how long does a knife like this last without needing any maintenance, or how often would i need to send it away to be sharpened??? (assuming everyday use in a domestic kitchen?) I understand the question warrants a "How long is a piece of string" answer, but what would be your educated guess?

Hey you took my answer away before I had a chance to use it.

I really wish I could give you a good answer here but it's impossible. All I can say is that Japanese knives, if maintained and not abused, will hold their edge a hell of a lot longer than Euro knives do. The need for sharpening is going to be based on how you're set up and how you use the knife really.

Also, what is shipping internationally worth? Specifically to Australia? Is this insured?

I don't know the weight of the box being shipped but assuming it's one knife going at about 1.5 lbs you'd be looking at a cost of $20.73 USD USPS Priority Mail (uninsured). More knives equals more weight which equals more cost of course.

[pauls51]

Thanks for the quick response Jon & Dave! ... I have been thinking of trying to learn the art of sharpening, but lack the confidence when it comes to quality knives! I do have a few clangers in the kitchen that I could practice on though!

[Suzuki]

Thanks for the quick response Jon!... I have been thinking of trying to learn the art of sharpening, but lack the confidence when it comes to quality knives! I do have a few clangers in the kitchen that I could practice on though!

That's exactly the way to do it - play on the inexpensive knives so you get a sense of what you're doing before working on your better ones.

Dave - quick question. I've recently seen a two-sided Japanese stone with a piece of wood between them - this stone is designed to be used by holding the knife stationary on a cutting board or block and moving the stone back and forth. Some folks say its easier to maintain the angle with this technique - I'm just curious if you've ever seen/heard of this and whether you've got any thoughts about this type of stone.

[DaveMartell]

Dave, could you please delve a little deeper into the topic of maintaining a Japanese knife's edge?

I really do not want to teach myself how to use wet stones, most because I am afraid of ruining a knife. Is the Spyderco Sharpmaker good enough for keeping it sharp? It has a 15 degree angle for Japanese knives.

Maybe you could suggest a few leather strop products too.

Thank you for all the information and help with this group buy.

I almost missed this one, I caught it on a re-read, good for me.

Japanese knives are most often sharpened between 8-12 deg per side although some go to 15 deg too. I would not choose a pre-set angle from any device to touch an edge with. It's much better to learn how to find the edge and go from there. using a pre-set angle almost always leads to hitting the abrasive above the edge or much too low making for a thick edged poor cutter. So you can use the Sharpmaker if you can use the rods without using the pre-sets on the angle.

In my opinion a much better and likely easier solution is to use a leather bench hone (strop) loaded with some diamond spray.

I've spent a ton of time researching these products and their use with Japanese knives. I sell a really nice set up that I'm extremely happy with. It's a tight thin textured leather pad that offers great draw, great feedback, shows you burrs in the texture pattern, locks on nicely to the edge bevel, is difficult to nick, and very hard to roll an edge on. This may be the easiest leather bench hone to use on knives ever.

Also, we've recently brought a new type of diamond spray to the market specifically for use on harder Japanese knives. This spray uses a Dupont polycrystalline synthetic diamond vs the more common monocrystalline diamond. The Dupont polycrystalline diamond allows for a fast cut rate at the 1/4 micron level while yielding an "edge bite" or tooth that is very fine. The edge it applies is simply the best knife edge I've been able to make yet and is said to not only offer sharpness but also increased edge retention.

Anyway, I shouldn't go on about this stuff here so much. If you're interested in checking out some details you can see more HERE

I'm also sure that there's plenty of places out there in the razor world that you can find bench hones and diamond spray from as well. Never seems to be a shortage on these things.

[DaveMartell]

Thanks for the quick response Jon & Dave! ... I have been thinking of trying to learn the art of sharpening, but lack the confidence when it comes to quality knives! I do have a few clangers in the kitchen that I could practice on though!

I, and I'm sure Jim and Jon, understand this completely, we all start somewhere.

Something to note is that a great knife to start off sharpening on is a less expensive carbon Japanese knife. The knife is cheap so scratching it or changing it's form slightly likely won't kill you and since carbon patinas the errant scratched up the side of the blade will eventually be covered up.

[DaveMartell]

Dave - quick question. I've recently seen a two-sided Japanese stone with a piece of wood between them - this stone is designed to be used by holding the knife stationary on a cutting board or block and moving the stone back and forth. Some folks say its easier to maintain the angle with this technique - I'm just curious if you've ever seen/heard of this and whether you've got any thoughts about this type of stone.

Yes I know of this set-up, it's brought to us by Takeda knives. Mr. Takeda is amazing with this stone in his hand but that's not the case with everyone. I remember about 5 yrs ago someone getting one of these and really doing a number on his knives. He trashed the sides on some and made the edges thicker on others. I'm just going to assume that like everything else there's a learning curve to it.

[DaveMartell]

You know what's going to great in just a couple of months time?

Someone besides Jim will be posting their new knife in that Mess Hall Acquisition thread!

[mretzloff]

In my opinion a much better and likely easier solution is to use a leather bench hone (strop) loaded with some diamond spray.

One last question, how often can we use the leather strop before sending the knife to you for sharpening?

[Edcculus]

Awesome! Missed this during the weekend. I think I'm tentatively in for the Nakiri. Maybe I can convince my finacee we should spring for the sujihiki also. I already have a 8" Henckels Chefs knife we just got at the bridal shower, so I don't think I need to go immediately replacing it with a Gyuto...at least yet


I have one question on the lefty thing. I'm right handed and my fiancee is left handed. I know you aren't doing any single bevel, but will a 70/30 edge make it harder for my fiancee, or a lefty to use?

[Spattznatt]

Wow! There are a number of beautiful knives in that list. I was wondering what is going to be the cut off time for the buy. I do not see any mention of timing other than how long it will take the knives to be finished. Did I miss something?

S

[DaveMartell]

One last question, how often can we use the leather strop before sending the knife to you for sharpening?

This is another impossible question to answer much the same as the "how often do I have to sharpen a knife question". There's so many variables that comes into play, most of which are the same as the sharpening question but also your technique on the strop as well as the quality of the strop being used.

For instance, if you whip the knife like a straight razor you'll likely roll the edge in the first pass or if you use a soft leather you may do the same thing even with perfect technique.

This isn't meant to scare you away from stropping, just the opposite actually, it's to inform you of what makes for a good experience and great results. The problem is more in answering this question than in explaining correct techniques which we can, and will, do.

Does this make sense?

[DaveMartell]

Awesome! Missed this during the weekend. I think I'm tentatively in for the Nakiri. Maybe I can convince my finacee we should spring for the sujihiki also. I already have a 8" Henckels Chefs knife we just got at the bridal shower, so I don't think I need to go immediately replacing it with a Gyuto...at least yet


I have one question on the lefty thing. I'm right handed and my fiancee is left handed. I know you aren't doing any single bevel, but will a 70/30 edge make it harder for my fiancee, or a lefty to use?

Getting a nakiri is a good choice to compliment what you already have and use. A plus is that nakiris are most often pretty thin knives where the right/left hand bias doesn't much come into play. I would also think that it shouldn't much matter for a sujihiki unless you use it as a chef's knife on a cutting board for chopping and such. If it's used as a slicer then I would think the bias shouldn't matter. We should get Jon's opinion on this though, he's got a ton more experience than me here.

[stevebu56]

It mentions in the beginning of the thread about "spine & choil rounding." Can you explain what that is? And if I was to buy a Japanese knife from an online vendor, what's the likelihood that it would come with this done?

[stevebu56]

Another question...on the wa style handle what color will the top piece be? I see black seems to be the default color. Can we choose one?