Cutlery Advice

**Redig** · 03-12-2007, 06:21 PM

Today I went out and purchased a Sabatier block set from a department store on sale and got what I thought to be a great deal. When I got home and used them, however, I was less than impressed. I used to have a Wusthof Grand Prix II 8" chef's knife (Awesome knife) but my ex stole it. Being as though I can't buy that same knife again, does anyone have an advice on high quality knives? I am going to return the set tomorrow and pick up a paring and a chef's. Any suggestions?

**sparkchaser** · 03-12-2007, 06:39 PM

I use and love my Global knives.

**Jim** · 03-12-2007, 06:42 PM

Ouch will be along shortly.....Brace yourself.

**SmoovD** · 03-12-2007, 07:09 PM

FWIW, I have always found that restaurant supply stores are the best places to purchase cutlery- utility vs price. I have had great luck with Mundials...they take a beating and keep a good edge.

**gigemlee** · 03-12-2007, 07:20 PM

I say drop the $299 on the basic Wusthof block.

We love ours.

**DangoS** · 03-12-2007, 07:24 PM

Originally Posted by gigemlee

I say drop the $299 on the basic Wusthof block.

We love ours.

+1, add the santoku knife and you're all set

**ouch** · 03-12-2007, 07:28 PM

Don't buy a block of anything. You won't use half of them, and should concentrate your funds on the one or two (okay, possibly three or four) that you'll really use all of the time. Get a good chef's knife, and then anything else you want, depending on the type of cooking you do.

Here's a good place to start, and to finish-

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/

(See Jim, that wasn't so bad.)

**Scotty** · 03-12-2007, 07:34 PM

Wusthof would be a great choice since you were happy with Wusthof before; unless it brings back bad memories.

**ouch** · 03-12-2007, 07:35 PM

This is still the best article I've read regarding chef's knives.

http://www.foodieforums.com/reviews/gyutoreview.htm

**galpman** · 03-12-2007, 07:42 PM

Originally Posted by ouch

Don't buy a block of anything. You won't use half of them, and should concentrate your funds on the one or two (okay, possibly three or four) that you'll really use all of the time. Get a good chef's knife, and then anything else you want, depending on the type of cooking you do.

Here's a good place to start, and to finish-

http://www.japanesechefsknife.com/

(See Jim, that wasn't so bad.)

I am a sous chef in Michigan. Cannot agree more. Get 3-4 good quality knifes that will pretty much cover your needs. (Forschner is my top choice)

**ouch** · 03-12-2007, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by galpman

I am a sous chef in Michigan. Cannot agree more. Get 3-4 good quality knifes that will pretty much cover your needs. (Forschner is my top choice)

I've always maintained that the difference between a professional and an amateur is that the pro has everything he needs, whereas the amateur has everything. One of the problems of working in a professional kitchen is that you can't use really good stuff- some schmuck will touch/ruin it, you may be prohibited from using wood handles, etc. In that regard, the home chef is lucky in that he can get whatever his heart desires.

Japanese cutlery may be something unfamiliar to the American kitchen, but it is the absolute best stuff you can get. As my better half likes to say, "once you go asian, you forget caucasian!" (Hey, what do you expect from someone who considers haiku poetry? )

The Tojiro DP gyuto is only around $60, and is a great knife. In the $150 range, there are several outstanding examples available. They are ligher and sharper than their German, French, and american counterparts, and take a wicked edge. You must also learn to care for them- it's easy to spend as much money on sharpening stones as on the knives themselves.

**tim8557** · 03-13-2007, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by ouch

I've always maintained that the difference between a professional and an amateur is that the pro has everything he needs, whereas the amateur has everything.

Now that is a great line that I'll be plagiarizing regularly !

I agree that the Japanese make the best knives around and I have several KAI Shun Classics that I really like.

**bababoosky** · 03-13-2007, 03:48 AM

Originally Posted by tim8557

Now that is a great line that I'll be plagiarizing regularly !

I agree that the Japanese make the best knives around and I have several KAI Shun Classics that I really like.

+1 These are my next purchase! Recommended by Alton Brown. SWMBO and loves us some AB!

**ouch** · 03-13-2007, 06:58 AM

If you're in the NYC area, it's worth a trip to Korin to see the good stuff in person. There's really no substitute for holding a knife in your hand, and they have a hefty selection. You also stand a good chance of running into iron chef Morimoto there- I've seen him in the store three times already.
Most importantly, you can arrange a free sharpening lesson from a guy who sharpens knives for some of NY's best chefs.

**ouch** · 03-13-2007, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by tim8557

Now that is a great line that I'll be plagiarizing regularly !

It's applicable for an extraordinary range of fields, from auto mechanics to photography to what have you. I think it occurs because the amateur is so in love with his "hobby" that he is compelled to investigate its every manifestation, and acquire every doodad extant; while the pro has, for the sake of efficiency, distilled his craft to the bare minimum.

**Bob Dobbs** · 03-13-2007, 07:31 AM

FWIW, I've got a few solid Cutco Knives (Santoku, paring and bread) that have served 99 percent of my needs very well through the years.

They're guaranteed forever and every year I get a call from the woman who sold them to me asking if I'd like her to come over and sharpen them (for free).

**Dennis** · 03-13-2007, 07:38 AM

We just had a big cutlery discussion about two months ago so take a search back in the archives for that. I'll reiterate my experiences. I used Wusthof knives for over 12 years - got the block as a wedding gift. Do NOT get a block - it is a waste of money in my opinion. Depending on what you do in the kitchen, you only need a few knives and not everything in the block. Take a look at the foodieforums or knifeforums "In the Kitchen" subforum and you will have more reading and info than you know what to do with.

I thought the Wusthofs were pretty good and I was fairly happy with them. I sharpened them on a Chefmate 120 maybe once a month and steeled them on a good steel from Hand America (glass smooth) before using. I knew that Japanese steel was better, but it is an investment up front because you also have to maintain and sharpen on water stones. I finally caved in and bought a 210 mm Tojiro DP gyuto (F808 from JCK). I also bought a parer from Murray Carter and a Chinese cleaver from Galasource. There is absolutely no question in my mind - these knives are so superior to the German steel that it isn't even funny. Out of the box, the edge on the Tojiro was crazy sharp. The blade is so thin is just falls through veggies. The balance is outstanding and nimble. The handle is not a perfect fit for me and I wish I had bought a longer (yes, longer) blade. For some reason, these knives are so nimble that a longer blade feels very natural whereas the longest blade I was comfortable with in my Wusthofs was 6-8 inches. So I have started down the ugly road of wanting another gyuto now (sigh).

As mentioned, you need water stones to sharpen Japanese steel. The angles are very acute - may 15 degrees or even less compared to 20 to 25 for German steel. The steels are much, much harder at Rockwell numbers about 63-65 compared to maybe 55 for my Wusthofs. You do not steel Japanese knives. So in addition to the cost of the knives, you will need to buy stones too which will average, say, $25 to $50 per stone (the finer grits are more expensive). You will need a low 220 to 1000 grit and a medium 4000 to 6000 at the minimum and maybe a flattener to start with. I recommend DVDs from either Korin or Murray Carter to learn how to sharpen on water stones. There are also basic videos at the Korin site.

So if you want awesome knives that need a little upfront learning and investment, start on the road to Japanese steel. If you don't want the hassle, get a chef's knife, a parer, and a serrated bread knife in whatever strikes you as nice or by recommendations from others. Those knives will cover 90% of what you need in the kitchen.

Dennis

**mozart** · 03-13-2007, 07:57 AM

Here are my $0.02:

I would say, start with learning how to use knives. Take a basic 2-hour course on "Knife Skills" at a local kitchen or food store, etc. If you have a refined technique already, ignore this step. However, from your post, I would venture to guess that you may not, and consequently, you may actually not quite know what you are actually looking for. No offense intended - getting good knives is an adventure that doesn't come too easily.

In the end, you may find that you would be entirely happy with a pair of cleavers like the Chinese; or perhaps, you are happier with the French/German tradition; or maybe some Japanese, or a mixture of all that. It depends somewhat on how you prepare your food. So, if you like big roasts, you'll need a carving knife; a Santoku won't help, no matter how cool the name sounds.

Once you know how to perform the basic tasks, decide on a basic collection of knives. Go to stores that have a large variety of high-quality knives and try them all out. Well, that means, hold them in your hand and move them around a bit. You have to find knives that feel comfortable in YOUR hands and that allow you to cut and chop without you getting blisters ("knife burn", so to say). Be careful with fancy handle shapes. Whatever you decide on, make sure it fits your hand perfectly. So much depends on that fit.

In my opinion, any of the top manufacturers is OK, be that German, Japanese, whatever. There is no big difference between any of them, provided you go for top quality. Ignore claims as to how long knives can hold their sharpness. Knives are supposed to get dull when being used, and one is suposed to sharpen them constantly (sometimes even every few minutes), so learn how to use a sharpening steel. Once a year, have them professionally sharpened to even out the edge.

Finally, prepare some great food and enjoy

Best - MM

**gigemlee** · 03-13-2007, 08:26 AM

We like the block, in it's defense, because we wind up using all the knives, and then some. We have 2 paring knives, 2 bread knives, 1 santoku, 1 chef's, 1 carver, and 1 small serrated.

The one piece of advice I would give you is that you should go to a sporting goods store and pick up an Accusharp sharpener. They're about 8 bucks, and were the top rated sharpeners in Cook's Illustrated last fall. They are so cool, and keep our knives ultra sharp.