Remington vs Winchester vs Browning

**gaseousclay** · 07-21-2010, 05:50 AM

so I started a thread awhile back on shotguns (and rifles, I think) because I was interested in buying one for hunting purposes. I've never fired a gun in my life but i've been looking at taking gun safety courses through the DNR, or have my father-in-law teach me gun safety since he's an experienced hunter.

my question is, is there a noticeable difference in the way a gun fires when i'm looking at brands? whenever I go to hunting/sporting goods stores I make a habit of checking out the pump action shotguns and bolt action rifles. the primary brands I look at are Remington, Winchester and Browning. does anyone have any experience with these companies? If so, could you please elaborate on quality and overall accuracy?

I guess i'm trying to approach firearms the way I approach shaving - YMMV, right? I know several people here have recommended the Remington 870 Wingmaster, so I think this is top on my list of shotguns. what about bolt action rifles? is there any difference between the brands I've mentioned? finally, since i'm completely new to this, what should I be looking for when purchasing a shotgun or rifle? I'm assuming 12 gauge is ideal, but what about barrel length? Ideally i'd like to buy a shotgun or rifle new, but used is ok too, hence the reason I'm asking about gun specs. if I were to buy used, how do I know i'm getting a decent shotgun or rifle? what should I be looking for? are there any decent online retailers that sell used firearms for decent prices? that is of course if firearms are allowed to be shipped online.

**straight_razor_dave** · 07-21-2010, 05:59 AM

IMHO the best shooting rifle you can buy for the money would be a Savage. A no frills rifle. It is rugged and durable. While not the prettiest rifle you've ever come across It realy doesnt have to be. It was built for one purpose. To be Accurate, Deadly, and Dependable. Dont knock them until you've tried them. You can get you a 30-06 or a . 308 for about 250 ready to go w/ a scope. Look into it my man.

**TheFlyingFrenchman** · 07-21-2010, 06:26 AM

Don't have much more advice to offer up. Just wanted to throw in that you'll want to look at the material that the firearm is made of when you get it. Since you haven't fired any guns before, that might be the biggest difference that you notice. Two guns may be of the same caliber, but if one of them has a synthetic stock for instance, then it has the potential to have a lot more recoil.

I've had both a Remington 870 and a Browning Auto 5 that I inherited from my Grandfather. Both were definitely sweet shotguns. If you look around your town you'll most likely find a local shooting club. You'll find that firearms enthusiasts are usually just as friendly and open as us wet-shavers are. You might be able to find a group of guys to go out with that would let you try out several of their diffrent models. They would be more than willing to help you find your first firearm.

All three companies have been around this long because they make a good solid product. A guns are about as YMMV as razors since everybody is built differently. So its up to finding which model you enjoy shooting the most and your most comfotable with.

**Jim** · 07-21-2010, 06:30 AM

Compared to selecting a rifle, a shotgun can be much more difficult.

What are you going to be hunting? Quail over pointer dogs? Woodcock over a spaniel? Grouse over a Setter? Wood ducks on a pond? Geese on a tidal flat? Driven pheasant? Each one would use a different gun for a perfect fit. A full bore goose gun would be a handicap over a duck pond or in a grouse covert. A woodcock gun would be equally handicapped pass shooting geese.

**Trey45** · 07-21-2010, 06:55 AM

Any purchases you make online of a firearm will have to be mailed direct to an FFL dealer in your local area. You then have to fill out form 4473 as you would if you had just bought the gun direct from the FFL dealer. You can go ahead and add 50 dollars to whatever price you buy the rifle for online, shipping is going to average $20, FFL dealers normally charge $30 for transfer. Some areas are more, where I live it's $50 for transfer.

Shotguns:
Since you are not experienced with shooting sports, a 12 gauge is most likely going to be a bit daunting at first for you, the recoil can be intense with full house loadings. Even some of the 2 3/4" loads can generate substantial recoil. I would direct you to a 20 gauge instead, the cost of the shells are similar between 12 and 20 anyhow, and honestly, the 12 won't do anything the 20 can't do in capable hands. The 20 is a milder recoil and easier to control. Remington 870 Wingmaster is the flagship of the 870 line, you can get the exact same action for less cash if you buy the 870 Express. I have several 870's, in various gauges, all but one is an Express, the one is a Wingmaster. I see no difference in performance, only the wood is different.
Mossberg 500, tried and true, hard to go wrong here, I prefer wood stocks anyhow, at least on shotguns. My opinion on shotguns is they are supposed to look like a shotgun, not some tacticool tool the high speed low drag crowd drools over. Mossberg 500's have been leaning heavily towards plastic stocks as of late, but you can still find a wood stocked shotgun if you look hard enough.
Browning, hard to go wrong here too, but you'll pay for that reputation. I don;t have much to say about their shotguns since I don't exactly like spending 4 times as much for a tool that my 870's will do the same job for.

Rifles:
Remington 700 series. These are the flagships of the Remington rifles. Stay away from the 770's, in no uncertain terms, they are not reliable. I could get into the whole long action v/s short action rifles for your first, but I honestly think you should start with a 22LR to learn the fundamentals on. Savage MK II with a decent 4x scope will solve that issue. Once you learn the correct techniques of accuracy and shooting skills, move up to a centerfire rifle, 308 Winchester in a Remington 700 will fill that bill just fine. You could also look at Savage model 10 or 11 for this and stay in the whole Savage accu-trigger family of firearms. If you just looking for a "fun gun" I'd direct you towards the Savage M25 in .223, which has the Wylde chamber that allows you to shoot surplus 5.56x45 ammo in it.

Not much more to say here. I could go on for pages, but this isn't a firearms forum, there are firums on the web for just that, let your browser find you a couple of these forums and do some reading and research before you buy.

**flylot** · 07-21-2010, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by Jim

Compared to selecting a rifle, a shotgun can be much more difficult.

What are you going to be hunting? Quail over pointer dogs? Woodcock over a spaniel? Grouse over a Setter? Wood ducks on a pond? Geese on a tidal flat? Driven pheasant? Each one would use a different gun for a perfect fit. A full bore goose gun would be a handicap over a duck pond or in a grouse covert. A woodcock gun would be equally handicapped pass shooting geese.

No truer words have been spoken.

**TulsaLhorn** · 07-21-2010, 07:22 AM

All the previous advice is very good. I personally own 2 of the 3 brands you mentioned (remington and browning), and have a custom made Kleinguenther in a 300 winchester magnum action if that counts as the third.

My addition to the previous posts is to find a gun show near you. Gun shows are great places to pick up, feel, sight, shake and otherwise fondle all these brands and more. Not only that if you see something you want you can take it home that day!

Down south there is usually a local gun show about every other month.

**flylot** · 07-21-2010, 07:32 AM

Originally Posted by Trey45

Shotguns:
Since you are not experienced with shooting sports, a 12 gauge is most likely going to be a bit daunting at first for you, the recoil can be intense with full house loadings. Even some of the 2 3/4" loads can generate substantial recoil. I would direct you to a 20 gauge instead, the cost of the shells are similar between 12 and 20 anyhow, and honestly, the 12 won't do anything the 20 can't do in capable hands. The 20 is a milder recoil and easier to control. Remington 870 Wingmaster is the flagship of the 870 line, you can get the exact same action for less cash if you buy the 870 Express. I have several 870's, in various gauges, all but one is an Express, the one is a Wingmaster. I see no difference in performance, only the wood is different.
Mossberg 500, tried and true, hard to go wrong here, I prefer wood stocks anyhow, at least on shotguns. My opinion on shotguns is they are supposed to look like a shotgun, not some tacticool tool the high speed low drag crowd drools over. Mossberg 500's have been leaning heavily towards plastic stocks as of late, but you can still find a wood stocked shotgun if you look hard enough.
Browning, hard to go wrong here too, but you'll pay for that reputation. I don;t have much to say about their shotguns since I don't exactly like spending 4 times as much for a tool that my 870's will do the same job for.

I must chime in here. As an avid bird shooter and competitive sporting clay and skeet shooter, I happen to have some experience in this matter. First and foremost, THE GUN MUST FIT. I can not stress this enough. Most "off the rack" guns are manufactured for "the average man" (what ever THAT is). THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN AVERAGE MAN!!!!!

If it doesn't fit, it will not shoot where you are looking! Please, please make sure it fits and then go pattern the gun! If you don't know what that means, the go out to a skeet/trap/sporting clay range and ask someone! Any serious shotgunner will be more than happy to help. With an ill fitting gun you will not hit squat and the recoil will hurt regardless of the load. Fit is far more important than gun make I assure you!

Now, the 12 ga. vs. 20 ga. thing is another matter. First off, recoil has everything to do with physics and nothing to do with gauge. A 12 ga. often weighs more than a 20. So if you have a 1 oz load at 1100 fps in the heavier 12 ga. the perceived recoil will be less than the same load in the lighter 20 ga. gun. I advise women new to shooting to shoot a 12 ga. with a 7/8 oz. target load. Very little recoil. Their problem is not recoil any longer, it's getting the upper body in shape to swing the heavier gun.

I do agree that for upland birds, a 20 is far superior to a 12, but for many other reasons, recoil not being one of them. I shoot 20s and 28 ga. for upland birds, and 20 ga. even for driven pheasant.

Modern powders negate the old thought of longer barrel for longer shots. That is no longer valid. Barrel length is chosen more for gun weight, balance, feel, and the type of shooting. You do not want a 32" barrel SxS hunting quail in brush for example. A better choice would be a gun with a 26 inch barrel.

A shooter manages distances with chokes AND loads. Inside 10-20 yard, a skeet choke with 8 shot in a 1 oz. load will work when you might need a modified or full choke and 6 shot in a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 oz load for that 45 yard crossing bird.

Also when picking a gun, intended use is important. Remember, a target gun is shot a lot and carried very little. A field gun is carried a lot and shot a little. Two different thought processes here.

**TulsaLhorn** · 07-21-2010, 07:35 AM

Don't know how big this one would be from the ad but....

http://crocodileproductionsinc.com/gkwaconia.htm

**Black Adder** · 07-21-2010, 10:46 AM

Out of the three brands you've mentioned, I've had experience with two. A Remington 870 20 ga. was my first shotgun. I was 16 then, and found that a pump and me just didn't get along in a hunting situation. I don't know if it was because my arms were too short, or I was getting excited, but I always short-stroked the pump action, and got jams. I went to Brownings after this, and never looked back. My first was a Browning 2000 in 20 ga., and then I had a Browning B-80 12 ga. Upland model.

It's been a while since I've hunted, but a shotgun HAS to "feel" right; you need to be able to get it up to your shoulder quickly and with no effort. I'm not kidding when I say it has to become a part of you. I really suggest you try different brands to see what feels right to you. I personally favor semi autos in shotguns, but they can get expensive. No real sportsman in a gun store will laugh at you if you're there spending time with bringing different shotguns up to your shoulder, seeing if that barrel naturally meets up with your eye. Consider weight, too. My Brownings were pretty light; a major plus when you're trudging sloughs or forage sorghum fields in search of pheasants.

Don

**WastedResources** · 07-21-2010, 11:12 AM

I carry a Browning Citori Classic Lightning Feather 12 gauge with a 30" barrel. I hunt doves, ducks, geese, and pheasants. It's one of the fancier Citoris, but you don't need to get crazy with it. Remington, Winchester, Browning, and Ruger all make quality firearms. It's important that you go to a shop and get your hands on the gun. Practice pulling it up into shooting position. You will find that they don't all feel great in your hands. Keep in mind that hunting can be dirty. Your gun will get dinged up a bit, so if you're going to cry if you put a mark on your precious tool, get a cheaper model.

**Bullwinkle** · 07-21-2010, 12:03 PM

the rifle discussion would be way too long for here.. IMHO you will have more fun and can find many more places to shoot a shotgun. Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays, etc.. Plus, birds, rabbits, squirrels.. If you have decided on a pump and you happen to be left handed the Browning BPS would be my first choice. (even if you're not) The spent shells get ejection out the bottom not into your face. The safety is on top and is operated with your thumb. The Remington safety's are on the trigger guard and are a pain and ever worse with gloves on. I have a decent selectiosn of shotguns and more than likely I will grab the BPS. It's a 20ga upland special.. fairly light, short barrel and just feels right.

**Jim** · 07-21-2010, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by WastedResources

I carry a Browning Citori Classic Lightning Feather 12 gauge with a 30" barrel. I hunt doves, ducks, geese, and pheasants. It's one of the fancier Citoris, but you don't need to get crazy with it. Remington, Winchester, Browning, and Ruger all make quality firearms. It's important that you go to a shop and get your hands on the gun. Practice pulling it up into shooting position. You will find that they don't all feel great in your hands. Keep in mind that hunting can be dirty. Your gun will get dinged up a bit, so if you're going to cry if you put a mark on your precious tool, get a cheaper model.

Thats a fine ride.

My fowling peice as well.

**Black Adder** · 07-21-2010, 06:40 PM

I forgot about double barrels. If you go that way, along with the Citori, you may want to consider the Ruger Red Label over and under. An awesome shotgun that sadly, I never had the pleasure of owning. Expensive, but I really think it'd be worth it.

Don

**gaseousclay** · 07-21-2010, 07:51 PM

Originally Posted by Jim

Compared to selecting a rifle, a shotgun can be much more difficult.

What are you going to be hunting? Quail over pointer dogs? Woodcock over a spaniel? Grouse over a Setter? Wood ducks on a pond? Geese on a tidal flat? Driven pheasant? Each one would use a different gun for a perfect fit. A full bore goose gun would be a handicap over a duck pond or in a grouse covert. A woodcock gun would be equally handicapped pass shooting geese.

ideally, the shotgun would be used for hunting both deer and pheasant. I don't know if all shotguns can do this but I want something that can shoot both buckshot and slugs.

I don't know if i'll ever get to own a rifle since most of the designated deer hunting grounds are way out of the city. I know I can use a shotgun for this so it just seems more practical.

do I need a license to own or carry a rifle when hunting?

anyway, thanks everyone for the tips....you guys were very helpful

**garyg** · 07-21-2010, 08:01 PM

Remington 870 to start, with two barrels, one with sights for the deer. And yes, in most states, there is a license required for hunting.

The key though is to take it out & shoot. Take the rifled barrel to a range & sight it in, or you will just be another tool wandering the woods. Put the other barrel on & get to a skeet or sporting clays course & pony up for a lesson.

The practice is fun, and will keep you in tune when the seasons are closed

**blary54** · 07-21-2010, 08:03 PM

For the price a Mossberg 500 is hard to beat(about $200.00). Used by some of the US armed forces because its so durable. I have one and really like it because im left handed and the safety is on top of the gun much like an over and under, and the slide release is under the gun in a spot i can get to with my left hand.

If I was going to buy an expensive shotgun I would probably go with a Benelli ( I like the M2 Field)
http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_m2.php
But Browning and Remington make some fantastic guns.

If I was going to purchase a rifle I would probably purchase a Tikka T3. (Finnish company).

Anyway those are just what I would purchase. I see you are looking at only American companies. I would also recommend looking at Ruger. They make good guns too.

**FlatFork** · 07-21-2010, 08:18 PM

I shot sporting clays years ago and the browning will not let you down if your going to fire a lot of rounds and they will also hold their value well.

**DavyRay** · 07-21-2010, 08:27 PM

We have built sub-divisions out in the woods. The deer do not have anywhere else to go. They are now eating my garden and my landscaping.

A shotgun is ideal for deer at close range. A golf club, in urban areas, would be almost as effective. I prefer the noise of a Winchester pump 12 ga. with no plug and a cylinder bore. That enables me to use slugs to drop these over-populated deer. Unfortunately, I live within the city limits. I can't use firearms to kill deer. I guess I will just have to use an old Toyota Corolla.

**gaseousclay** · 07-22-2010, 04:59 AM

Originally Posted by garyg

And yes, in most states, there is a license required for hunting.

I know a license is necessary to hunt but what about to simply own a firearm? if I were to go to a gun shop could I just buy a shotgun or rifle or is there some sort of background check they would need to do? I know this is generally done for handguns and that you need to have a conceal and carry permit, but what about shotguns and rifles?