When do you stop honing and begin stropping?

Hi,

Brothers, forgive me for I am just a simple cabinetmaker and your ways are strange to me. Now I've got this straight razor thingie, and I've been reading all I can, here and otherwise.

Honing a chisel or a plane blade is pretty trivial. Wood breaks down an edge pretty fast, and to prevent tear-out (nicks and scratches) you must re-hone frequently. For me, honing is the removing of metal with some sort of abrasive in order to create a sharp cutting edge. Stropping is running a finely honed edge over a "grabby" surface in order to remove the wire edge left behind by even the finest honing stage.

A piece of leather (or wood) charged with an abrasive compound is a hone in my realm. Stropping is accomplished on a piece of leather, wood, canvas, or the palm of my hand. The object of this stropping is to remove the wire edge that remains after honing. It's not to remove the scratches left by abrasives, or to change the profile of the cutting edge.

The leather side of a barbers' strop clings to the bevel and removes most of the jaggedness of the wide edge. The linen or canvas side, IMO is not there to heat the blade, although this might be a side effect. It's there to further refine the cutting edge, because it is the material that is the least abrasive and the least likely to round over an edge.

I've never been to barber's college, but it seems to me that the linen, without any abrasive, should be the last step in edge preparation. It's the only stage where it's appropriate to hear a bit of that "zing" that beginners are so fond of hearing on the strop. Lifting the blade a little at the end of the strokes will refine the edge without rounding it. It will remove the last traces of jaggedness on the edge that you formed with the honing operations.

I'm totally prepared to admit that I'm wrong. My sharpening experience, except for axes, has been of the single bevel variety. And in woodworking, when a surface is too tough to plane, we turn to scraping.

Anyway, I'd like to try to reconcile what I know from 30 years of sharpening woodworking tools with the sharpening traditions that you folks follow.

Not a troll, I swear

Ian

I hone the razor to get the perfect edge every so often but I strop on the linen and leather every day before I shave. I don't lift the spine off the strop at the end of the stroke. I have no other sharpening experience except razors but I have been shaving with a straight for a long time.

drifwood said:

... I'm totally prepared to admit that I'm wrong. My sharpening experience, except for axes, has been of the single bevel variety. And in woodworking, when a surface is too tough to plane, we turn to scraping.

Anyway, I'd like to try to reconcile what I know from 30 years of sharpening woodworking tools with the sharpening traditions that you folks follow.

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What a great post! And, I am looking forward to the discussion. For I don't believe we should ever accept common wisdom just because it is common wisdom. Trust, but verify.

My two bits deals with stropping and the wire edge. From observation by feel and performance, and also by examination under a 100x microscope, the first strop definitely smooths the edge of the blade. But, I wouldn't typically term this the removal of a wire edge. It's just that the blade is roughened by the grit, and microscopically the edge is 12K-level jagged. I believe the first stropping smooths out the jaggedness.

The first stropping, and subsequent stroppings also sharpen the edge. I use the HHT a lot to monitor the edge, (prior to the use of the shave test of course.) Definitely, repeat stroppings sharpens the edge as its main action.

I am quite aware of wire edges, and the havoc they can play on the shave and on ability to maintain a sharp edge. But, I think I've dealt with wire edges on a blade several hones before my final 12K hone and subsequent stropping.

The generally accepted theory is once you come off the 4K hone all your actual or gross sharpening is complete. The 8K and 12K give a final polish and refinement to the edge and the cloth and leather acts to dress the edge. Certainly if you do enough strokes or spend enough time you can take a dull edge and hone it to perfection using water but that's pretty much how it works.

Thebigspendur said:

The generally accepted theory is once you come off the 4K hone all your actual or gross sharpening is complete. The 8K and 12K give a final polish and refinement to the edge and the cloth and leather acts to dress the edge. Certainly if you do enough strokes or spend enough time you can take a dull edge and hone it to perfection using water but that's pretty much how it works.

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+1, spot on what I was going to say

Hi,

Yeah, things are as you say regarding the honing stones and bare leather or linen. One of the reasons I brought this up was because I know lots of people use pastes on leather strops, and at least one person uses something on the linen strop.

One of the effects of stropping is to stand the thin edge back up after shaving starts to deform it. The fineness the cutting edge is one of the things that separates the straight razor from the tools I'm used to sharpening. It's also the reason why the blade is honed and stropped only on the pull stroke. With such an acute bevel angle the cutting edge would fold pretty easily at the slightest catch. Honing, even very fine honing (IMO), on the pull stroke is pretty much guaranteed to draw out a wire edge to some degree. I'm going to see if I can photograph the edge during the process to see what's there is to be seen.

I'm not trying to upset the applecart or hurt anyone's feelings. I want to know how the razor honing process works at each stage. Then I can evaluate what I'm doing and make changes when necessary. At the very least I need to locate my 8x loupe so I can do some visual checks. Some people are into soaps or brushes -- I'm into sharpening.

Take care,
Ian

I don’t think there is a definative answer to the question you ask.

I also don’t think that photography or mangnification will help you.

The final arbitrator is does the razor cut effortlessly and shave your
face so that you feel clean shaven.

One thing though, lifting the blade off the strop will immediately round the delicate edge and is a bad thing to do to a razors edge.

drifwood said:

Hi,
...the blade is honed and stropped only on the pull stroke. With such an acute bevel angle the cutting edge would fold pretty easily at the slightest catch. Honing, even very fine honing (IMO), on the pull stroke is pretty much guaranteed to draw out a wire edge to some degree. ...

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This excerpt confuses me.. are you honing on the "pull stroke" as in spine leading?
If so, that's not accepted wisdom for razor honing, after 1K all honing should be spine trailing. (my parrot impression: this is what I've been told)

wdwrx said:

This excerpt confuses me.. are you honing on the "pull stroke" as in spine leading?
If so, that's not accepted wisdom for razor honing, after 1K all honing should be spine trailing. (my parrot impression: this is what I've been told)

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Hi,

You're right to be confused there. I got it backwards. Somewhere I got turned around and the only "push" (cutting edge forward) strokes I was making were on the 1k stone. I picked up a well worn blade to use for my experiments. I established the bevel on a 1k waterstone using back and forth strokes, then I went through the 4k, 8k (I found an 8k carver's slip among my things), and my slab of pine with the .5 micron compound using spine first strokes. Then a naked lather strop and finished with a patch of denim, all using spine first strokes. I ran my #1 blade, my Dovo Best Quality, through the last 3 stages, using spine first (pull strokes). I got good HHT results with both razors.

I had my best, least irritating shave yet with the Dovo last night. Things are coming together nicely.

I've got a line on a couple of unhandled razors through an antique shop. I'm hoping they have enough meat on them to allow another honing or 2.

Cheers,
Ian

Ah ha. That's clear now, thanks. Sounds like your doing PDG! I've never been able (or willing) to shave off of my 8K honing jobs. I find I need a 12K or finer finish to chop my stubble, and, I'm sure, compensate for my noobness at honing.

I'm new at stropping and now more confused than never!

OP seems to be saying that one should strop on linen *after* stropping on the leather.

I had understood it to be the other way around...with the leather stop (no paste or anything) to be the final step?

Honing is as much an art as it is a science. One guy could take a dull blade and get a very good shaving edge using a 6K or even a 4K while another can use a 12K and still have problems so there are no absolutes. The effect you will get with a given hone may be very different than what I get. Also factor in different materials and types of hones and types of steel and trying to establish what a certain grit will do thinking you've established some standard reference is folly.

Thebigspendur said:

Honing is as much an art as it is a science. One guy could take a dull blade and get a very good shaving edge using a 6K or even a 4K while another can use a 12K and still have problems so there are no absolutes. The effect you will get with a given hone may be very different than what I get. Also factor in different materials and types of hones and types of steel and trying to establish what a certain grit will do thinking you've established some standard reference is folly.

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+1

Smooth and sharp is smooth and sharp and it really doesn’t matter how you get there. The other observation I would make is that I have found that paying large amounts of money for the finest finishing hones does not guarantee a smooth and sharp razor.

mkornecki said:

I'm new at stropping and now more confused than never!

OP seems to be saying that one should strop on linen *after* stropping on the leather.

I had understood it to be the other way around...with the leather stop (no paste or anything) to be the final step?

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Hi, it is a bit bewildering, isn't it? In fact, I was asking whether it should be leather --> linen or vice versa. The consensus is that the leather strop is the final operation before shaving. I did them in the wrong order (seems to be a pattern developing here )

Just to respond to some points by others - wdwrx, I don't leave off with the 8k stone. I do additional honing on with the Lee Valley/Veritas CrOx AlOx honing compound, around .5 micron or 16k abrasive. This stuff, while very fine, does remove metal, not just burnish or polish it. See more here: http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=32984&cat=1,43072

And Thebigspendur and Forum9, yes, there are many ways to achieve the desired result. If anyone doubts this, just go to Woodnet Forums and ask what's the best sharpening system for sharpening plane irons and chisels. Then get ready to receive more recommendations than you can handle in a month of Sundays -- each of them being superior to all the others.

Thank you all for your input.

Ian

I agree with most of the basic principles you are describing. Linen, I believe, is actually a sort of "roughing" compound. Whether it is preferred before or after is somewhat immaterial if you are doing both, but, it depends on the original condition of edge before stropping. I don't consider it a required step, perhaps until much further off the hone when leather stropping alone is insufficient. I don't think I would feel handicapped without a linen strop.

It seems to me, over the years, that many knife/chisel sharpeners have an unusual fascination with the "wire edge" and what to do with it. I think one of the challenges of straight honing is completing the entire process without ever producing a wire edge.

I don't rely on or use a strop to conduct any sharpening or wire edge removal. I use a strop only to fix an edge from shaving damage.

I don't think is important to lift the spine off the strop when stropping, rather it is important to understand the effect of the strops deflection when stropping.

But, if you figure it all out, let me know.

AFDavis11 said:

I agree with most of the basic principles you are describing. Linen, I believe, is actually a sort of "roughing" compound. Whether it is preferred before or after is somewhat immaterial if you are doing both, but, it depends on the original condition of edge before stropping. I don't consider it a required step, perhaps until much further off the hone when leather stropping alone is insufficient. I don't think I would feel handicapped without a linen strop.

It seems to me, over the years, that many knife/chisel sharpeners have an unusual fascination with the "wire edge" and what to do with it. I think one of the challenges of straight honing is completing the entire process without ever producing a wire edge.

I don't rely on or use a strop to conduct any sharpening or wire edge removal. I use a strop only to fix an edge from shaving damage.

I don't think is important to lift the spine off the strop when stropping, rather it is important to understand the effect of the strops deflection when stropping.

But, if you figure it all out, let me know.

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Good thoughts. Yes, I guess that as a wood butcher I have a deeply ingrained mindset when it comes to sharpening. It's like this, "Ok, I've got this nice piece of carbon steel, and I've got my 4000x gold stone, so why shouldn't I just do what I'm used to doing?" This is a little difficult to overcome, but I'm working on it. I'm beginning to learn what the differences are.

I'd like to get back to you later on some of the finer points of stropping you mentioned, but I'm going to keep this message pretty general.

I am learning a lot from this thread. I've learned from making some mistakes in following the instructions that I picked up from the forum -- notably, honing *** backwards. Kind folks here have pointed out my errors, and I'm better off for that. Learning has rarely ever been a straight line experience for me. I tend to follow the path of a pinball, going off in all directions before finally getting things straight in my head. I know it's maddening for anyone observing me, but I usually arrive at a pretty good understanding of the subject.

I've got nothing else to hone at the moment. I've had 3 straight days of excellent shaves with my Dovo, and I don't want to mess with it. I've also got a good edge on a well-worn Wade and Butcher that I picked up mostly to experiment on. I'm reluctant to shave with it just yet because it's a spike tip, and I want to work more on razor control before trying it.

I'm hoping to find a couple more "expendables" to work on this weekend. A lot of the antique shops around here open for the season on May 1st. Selection is pretty good at the start of the season. Once I get my hands on some blades, I'm going to put together what I've learned, set up lights, camera and tripod, and see what I can observe while going through the process again.

Cheers,
Ian