as a coticule user i no for a fact slurry does and can dull an edge , My question is does a escher with slurry have the same efect. i will be using as a finisher after i get a very fine edge on coticule, with water. It does say on the label to use with slurry. I've not got the scher just yet as it is on its way. so i'm just doing some research before it arives. Most people on the forum use with water as finisher some with slurry but not many.
slurry escher/coticule
- Thread starter gary haywood
- Start date
Do you mean a slurry on a coticule dulls an edge,
or do you want to say it cut´s (and leaves an edge) like a coarser stone?
Anyway, here are some nice Pics taken by Zowoda.
You can see there a slurried coticule leaves deeper scratches and teeth
than a Norton 8.000. Without slurry the edge is quite fine.
He did the same with an esher, and looking at the pictures I see no drawback in using slurry.
You might just give it a try. Bunt in general, Slurry is never necessary
http://www.tzknives.com/razorbevels.html
or do you want to say it cut´s (and leaves an edge) like a coarser stone?
Anyway, here are some nice Pics taken by Zowoda.
You can see there a slurried coticule leaves deeper scratches and teeth
than a Norton 8.000. Without slurry the edge is quite fine.
He did the same with an esher, and looking at the pictures I see no drawback in using slurry.
You might just give it a try. Bunt in general, Slurry is never necessary
http://www.tzknives.com/razorbevels.html
- Thread starter
- #3
Yes thats what i mean , when using a coticule with slurry it becomes agressive , what i meant to say is you would'nt get the best of shaves og coti with slurry as the slurry does sharpen but also resstricts a fine edge. by moving slowly towards water gives a sharper finer edge. So my thinking is escher with slurry would'nt give as finer finish as water would, may be i'm wrong about that as i never used escher.
- Thread starter
- #4
Do you mean a slurry on a coticule dulls an edge,
or do you want to say it cut´s (and leaves an edge) like a coarser stone?
Anyway, here are some nice Pics taken by Zowoda.
You can see there a slurried coticule leaves deeper scratches and teeth
than a Norton 8.000. Without slurry the edge is quite fine.
He did the same with an esher, and looking at the pictures I see no drawback in using slurry.
You might just give it a try. Bunt in general, Slurry is never necessary
http://www.tzknives.com/razorbevels.html
Just looked at the edges. coti sand blasted with slurry as usaaul. much nicer with water as i'd expect.
escher with slurry looks fine and with water hardly any differance. This shows me that slurry with escher has no where near the efect that coticule with slurry has, would you agree.
Looking at escher edges there little or no differance, from what i can see.
Slurry on any stone will leave a rougher edge than just water. This is the theory behind Bart's “Dilucot” method.
- Thread starter
- #6
thats what i thought, water it is then.
Not Japanese natural stones.
Please explain why a Japanese stone should be different. Slurry on Japanese stones is usually created with a nagura which is much coarser than the stone itself and used for sharpening when you don't have a lower grit hone. You always finish on a Japanese stone with water after using the slurry and, if you're not, you're probably not getting everything out of that stone that you could.
- Thread starter
- #9
slurrys are used to create more cutting power. i should imagine escher with slurry would'nt be as agressive as coticule. true or false? i'm just guessing.
I'm no expert on Japanese stones but I've been working with them for a few months now. Yes, they do use a nagura. Not the same nagura a coticule would use. Usually more chalk like nagura's. As opposed to the particles the coticle releases the ones my Kiita releases are flat, not like the garnet the coticule release. The nagura is really important and the good ones are hard to come by.
Pretty much everything on slurry from coticules is opposite with Japanese. Like a coticule, I use only the one stone for everything, setting bevels, even removing chips to a finish. One thing with these stones is they don't give a mirror finish, it is hazy even a blue/gray tint to it. As for finishing on a Kiita that is YMMV. I use slurry some use water only. That is going to be what ever method you prefer. And yes, I put a mean edge on any razor. I actually struggle more with a coticule and have finally been getting very good edges as of late.
I'm no expert in honing by any means, especially with naturals of any kind. So YMMV.
Mejiro...there you go. Name escaped me there for a moment
The idea behind the dilucot method is
that the slurry a coticule produces is *much* coarser than the stone itself.
Why is that? That is because the abrasives are round garnets wich are huge.
They can be as big as 6µ or more.
But bond to the stone not getting free, only the mild round "edges" of the abrasives stick out,
massaging a nice and clean edge.
Freed (i.e. slurried) they will cut full speed.
Not every stone has abrasive particles that big.
My Naniwa 10k super will cut much faster when slurried
but will leave an equaly as fine edge and finish.
So it is not always the case that a slurry is a bad thing.
But it is true that is never necessary and I still have to come across a stone
that gives a better finish when slurried. This includes several japanese stones
like Nakayama and Ohzuku.
It is totally up to you to try slurrying your Esher.
It won´t hurt. If it´s inferior you will notice
that the slurry a coticule produces is *much* coarser than the stone itself.
Why is that? That is because the abrasives are round garnets wich are huge.
They can be as big as 6µ or more.
But bond to the stone not getting free, only the mild round "edges" of the abrasives stick out,
massaging a nice and clean edge.
Freed (i.e. slurried) they will cut full speed.
Not every stone has abrasive particles that big.
My Naniwa 10k super will cut much faster when slurried
but will leave an equaly as fine edge and finish.
So it is not always the case that a slurry is a bad thing.
But it is true that is never necessary and I still have to come across a stone
that gives a better finish when slurried. This includes several japanese stones
like Nakayama and Ohzuku.
It is totally up to you to try slurrying your Esher.
It won´t hurt. If it´s inferior you will notice
I'm no expert on honing with Japanese naturals, but some guys who use them a lot describe a process of using slurry that yields better results for them than finishing on water alone. I do know that there are differing types of slurry stones that are used on Japanese natural stones for different purposes, and letting the slurry break down is important for maximum effectiveness with slurry. Having said that, there are other guys that only use water. Both types of users report excellent results from my reading/research, and my experience is similar.
For a really interesting read, you can check out JimR's thread on Coticule.be
Get some popcorn because it's quite a read
For a really interesting read, you can check out JimR's thread on Coticule.be
Get some popcorn because it's quite a read
Using nagura on Jnat finisher is incorrect method unless you use a piece of the same stone.
There is no nagura stone that is as fine as the grit of the finisher therefore as you mentioned you get rougher finish than possible.
What one can use is a DMT or Atoma diamond plate to make the slurry.
Finishing with no slurry is also an option but those Asagi stones are very scratchy and take a lot skill to finish properly with water only.
This isn't necessarily accurate. Check out that thread I linked in my last post
That is an awesome thread by JimR. It is amazingly detailed and very open to others methods.
I'm not expert with honing on Japanese hones, but in my experience you can get a superb edge off a Japanese hone with a slurry (better shaving characteristics than with just water).
Here's my understanding of how they work:
Honing with a 'Nagura'. These are the chalk-like slurry stones. They are softer than the hone itself, and provide all the slurry. They come in different grits, but the finest is still quite coarse (6000 grit or so). They're meant for coarse work - removing chips etc. I've used them for this, and they work great. However, I wouldn't shave with these edges.
Apparently, these are the only stones that should be called 'Nagura' - though the term has been used loosely for proper slurry stones.
Honing with a honzan (piece of the same stone as the hone). These are the stones that you should be using for finishing on a Japanese hone. You can also use a coarse DMT to raise a slurry on the hone.
The reason Japansese hones work differently, is that the slurry raised breaks down over time. As you hone (using your favourite strokes - J-hook, circular strokes, whatever), the slurry itself gets finer and finer. Finer even than the hone itself. This is why they work differently from western hones.
You must also use much thicker slurry with these stones. If you use a thin slurry, it doesn't break down and remains coarse. If you use a thick slurry it seems to break down quickly, and it also seems to create a film between the hone and the razor, making sure the particles in the hone surface don't contact the edge.
Effectively, using a thick slurry on a Japanese hone allows you to hone to a higher grit than the hone itself is capable of.
However, these slurry stones are not properly called Nagura (though they're often referred to as nagura anyway - like xerox = photocopying).
I've only ever used the Asagi I have, and this seems to be the case for this hone. I can't claim it's the same for other Japanese hones.
Also, this is my experience, and that of a few other people I agree with. This hasn't been scientifically tested. It does seem to be the case for all the razors I've honed on the Asagi though. I also have looked at the edges under very good microscopes, and visually it seems to be confirmed.
I ain't no pro, though.
Here's my understanding of how they work:
Honing with a 'Nagura'. These are the chalk-like slurry stones. They are softer than the hone itself, and provide all the slurry. They come in different grits, but the finest is still quite coarse (6000 grit or so). They're meant for coarse work - removing chips etc. I've used them for this, and they work great. However, I wouldn't shave with these edges.
Apparently, these are the only stones that should be called 'Nagura' - though the term has been used loosely for proper slurry stones.
Honing with a honzan (piece of the same stone as the hone). These are the stones that you should be using for finishing on a Japanese hone. You can also use a coarse DMT to raise a slurry on the hone.
The reason Japansese hones work differently, is that the slurry raised breaks down over time. As you hone (using your favourite strokes - J-hook, circular strokes, whatever), the slurry itself gets finer and finer. Finer even than the hone itself. This is why they work differently from western hones.
You must also use much thicker slurry with these stones. If you use a thin slurry, it doesn't break down and remains coarse. If you use a thick slurry it seems to break down quickly, and it also seems to create a film between the hone and the razor, making sure the particles in the hone surface don't contact the edge.
Effectively, using a thick slurry on a Japanese hone allows you to hone to a higher grit than the hone itself is capable of.
However, these slurry stones are not properly called Nagura (though they're often referred to as nagura anyway - like xerox = photocopying).
I've only ever used the Asagi I have, and this seems to be the case for this hone. I can't claim it's the same for other Japanese hones.
Also, this is my experience, and that of a few other people I agree with. This hasn't been scientifically tested. It does seem to be the case for all the razors I've honed on the Asagi though. I also have looked at the edges under very good microscopes, and visually it seems to be confirmed.
I ain't no pro, though.
This isn't necessarily accurate. Check out that thread I linked in my last post
That's a great post, but Jim points out that a real nagura is not what you want to use for finishing work. Rather he mentions using what his barber calls a nagura (colloquially) - really a piece of the hone itself.
