Advantages/disadvantages of 3"-wide hones?

When honing my 7-day set, I found two razors that weren't quite right, compared to the other 5. I hypothesized and they may be slightly warped and tried to do a rolling X. There was improvement, but not enough, so I went to a narrow hone and solved the problem. To make my life easier, I decided to have my two wide hones, a Norton 4K/8K and a Jnat cut in half to make them narrower and this led to a general question that I would like to pose to honers:

All the vintage hones that I have seen (except those used for other purposes like honing a microtome or tools in general), are narrow. Barbers hones are 2" wide and my vintage coticules and Charnley Forest are 1" to 1½" wide. I think that this is because they make honing warped blades easier. My conclusion is that we use 3" hones because that's what's available. They were designed for general tool sharpening and not specifically for razors. Wouldn't it be a good business opportunity for someone to start making narrow hones again, given the resurgence of the straight razor market? Any thoughts?

It's already being done.....

I've been working with someone to cut stones for the Edge Pro, but can cut other sizes.

My solution is to avoid warped razors.

Dov, I was wondering why the older hones were so skinny compared to the wide hones most people use today. I though to myself why on earth did they use such skinny hones, after trying to hone some especially problematic razors that wouldn't take an even edge on the 3" wide hones, I see the benefit of using skinny stones. (yes I know I can do the rolling x on the wider stones too) I went the cheap route and got some glass plates cut to 1" 1.5" and 2" and some lapping film, but as Tom posted above he can have cut any of the well known hones in half. Chefknivestogo also has some cut Naniwa and shapton stones available as well.

mparker762 said:

My solution is to avoid warped razors.

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Not always possible.

jendeindustries said:

It's already being done.....

I've been working with someone to cut stones for the Edge Pro, but can cut other sizes.

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superbleu said:

Chefknivestogo also has some cut Naniwa and shapton stones available as well.

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I wish I had known!

There are a couple options to do this without spending a lot.

King 1000/6000 is 33 bucks. That will get most of the heavy work out of the way. Or you could get a quote on a narrow coticule for about 60-70. My bout it 40-45mm and about 6.5 inchs long. Works great for those kinda razors.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2000242/1421/Combination-Waterstone--8-x-2-x-1-10006000.aspx

I don't see any advantage in 3" wide hones. Not for sharpening razors. I like to keep the hone in my hand, and a 3"X8" is just not the most comfortable size (and weight) for hand held honing. But even without that reason, I don't see why a hone should be any wider than 1"3/4. It is sufficient to make a stable X-stroke. And the X-stroke, in my experienced opinion, is one of the few things imperative if one wants to hone razors well.

Kind regards,
Bart.

I don't think there are any inherent disadvantages to 3" hones. Nor advantages. How you use them, therein lie the pros and cons.

Bart said:

I don't see any advantage in 3" wide hones. Not for sharpening razors. I like to keep the hone in my hand, and a 3"X8" is just not the most comfortable size (and weight) for hand held honing. But even without that reason, I don't see why a hone should be any wider than 1"3/4. It is sufficient to make a stable X-stroke. And the X-stroke, in my experienced opinion, is one of the few things imperative if one wants to hone razors well.

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I rarely use the X stroke myself unless I'm using a narrow hone like one of my barber hones or my Charnley Forest. I think it's imperative to master the X stroke if one wishes to use a narrow hone (and certainly the barber hones have a certain romance about them), but there is nothing magical about the stroke if you're using a sufficiently wide hone, which is the case with my shaptons, nakayamas, thuringens, and ouachitas. Simply running the razor straight down the hone works just as well as X stroking, possibly with a bit of an angle on the blade if one is into that sort of thing - Gillette's patents claim that 1 degree off perpendicular is optimal, and that sounds as good an angle as any. I always hand-hold and have never found the wider hones to be awkward to use this way, but it's possible that this is influenced by peculiarities in individual grips.

I try not to waste my time with warped razors; if its new I send it back for another, and if vintage then I punt it back onto ebay or (if it's really bad) destroy it and toss it in the trash bin. I really don't understand the attraction of trying to make a bent razor shave-ready, when it should have never made it out of the factory in the first place. Life is too short for trash razors.

mparker762 said:

I try not to waste my time with warped razors; if its new I send it back for another, and if vintage then I punt it back onto ebay or (if it's really bad) destroy it and toss it in the trash bin. I really don't understand the attraction of trying to make a bent razor shave-ready, when it should have never made it out of the factory in the first place. Life is too short for trash razors.

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This is where we differ. A few of my very best razors are slightly warped, and I've never considered them flawed. I would certainly regret to let go of them. I accept warp, within reasonable tolerances, as a normal in the production process of straight razors. I believe they solved it in the old days, by putting a smiling edge on a razor, as that "overrules" any slight warp in a blade. For the razors I hone, a diagonal (X-style stroke) is needed, to assure good contact between the blade and the surface of the hone. Even on a hone that's wide enough to allow a straight stroke, I still use an X-stroke.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Narrow hones work just fine with proper technique and that's why all old hones were narrow. However, a wide hone is not an impediment because you can use the exact same technique on the wide hone as the narrow hone.

You don't need a narrow hone.

If you want a narrow hone, then take your 3" wide hone and draw a line down it to make it either a 2" or 1.5" hone. Then simply hone on just one side of of the line. Now you've got yourself a narrow hone!

Utopian said:

Narrow hones work just fine with proper technique and that's why all old hones were narrow. However, a wide hone is not an impediment because you can use the exact same technique on the wide hone as the narrow hone.

You don't need a narrow hone.

If you want a narrow hone, then take your 3" wide hone and draw a line down it to make it either a 2" or 1.5" hone. Then simply hone on just one side of of the line. Now you've got yourself a narrow hone!

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But what about the concave side of a warped blade? The only way to get the center of the blade to touch the hone would be to apply pressure and that would create a frown.

Advantages of 3" wide hone?




Disadvantage of a 3" wide hone?

Chimensch said:

But what about the concave side of a warped blade? The only way to get the center of the blade to touch the hone would be to apply pressure and that would create a frown.

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Instead of typing up an answer to tackle this problem, I'll quote Cedric from Coticule.be

Smythe said:

With the availability of wide hones “today”, we tend to use the middle of the hone most of the times. However when dealing with a warped blade it is best to work close to the edge of the hone… as the blade falls off the hone during the final part of the “X” stroke, the edge of the hone will have a chance to touch the middle of the blade that normally does not touch on that side of the blade (the concave side).
So you may roll one side of the blade (convex side), but the other side you bring down the tang and allow the edge of the hone to "follow" along the edge of the blade... (or to put it another way... Allow the edge of the blade to "ride" the edge of the hone).

(*Caution* you are not actually using the very edge of the hone... you are using the surface of the hone close to the edge of the hone to contact the middle part of the blade as you bring the tang down... it is a practiced movement, to contact the hone but not bring the tang so far down that you are actually honing on the edge of the hone... as a guide, watch the "black" on the surface of the hone to see how close to edge of the hone you are contacting).

If you perfect this method, not only will you be proud of the resulting edge, but you may never get those unsightly “uneven” bevels or spine were when you are done (that is: if they weren't there, or were very small to begin with, or you removed the hone were during the restore).

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I feel that stationary file honing would be the ultimate method for dealing with a razor that isn't perfectly ground. However, that really does require the skilled hands of a craftsman. Some day I'll get around to making some micro-grit files and practicing that technique. Until then, I'm content with my 40 and 25mm wide hones.

Utopian said:

You don't need a narrow hone.

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You don't need a wide hone.

Maybe a cultural difference. Here in Europe we sometimes get the idea that the US approach is to start big and only downsize when there's a need to do so, while the EU approach is to start small and only upsize when that seem necessary. If you don't believe me, compare European strops to American strops.

Kind regards,
Bart.

Seraphim said:

Advantages of 3" wide hone?

It's wider than a 2" wide hone​

Disadvantage of a 3" wide hone?

It's not a 4" wide hone!​

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can we get an amen to this ??

+1

cityjim

wide hones are better because :

1. You lay them flat on a stable surface . Meaning you can concentrate holding the blade properly on the hone . If the hone moves while honing then the blade is trying to follow . There goes your symmetrical bevel or polish on the edge . I see nothing swaying me to hold the hone in my hand . Also the edge gets honed with the same downward pressure for the entire length of the edge . Leading again to a more symmetrical honing process .

2. When portions of the edge are not on the hone , you get a slight blade warp where the hone material starts and stops . You can see it in the blade while honing . Especially if you apply too much pressure with a full hollow . The edge will fold where the hone material stops . Watch it using an overhead light .

To continue with the above paragraph , when using a narrow hone you are only honing a small spot on the edge . Then you have to slide the edge to one side using different muscles which leads to different downward pressures on the edge . Not good ....

3. Dealing with warped blades , what else better than a wide hone to true it back up . I finished removing a smiling edge on a Wade and Butcher just a few days ago . The DMT D8C worked like a charm . Now the edge is flat again . And I wonder how that edge was honed into a smiling one ??? Those darn small hones is how . Guys trying to save a dollar by not buying the proper equipment .

Someone once said to use to right tool for the job . I agree .


cityjim

cityjim said:

3. Dealing with warped blades , what else better than a wide hone to true it back up . I finished removing a smiling edge on a Wade and Butcher just a few days ago . The DMT D8C worked like a charm . Now the edge is flat again . And I wonder how that edge was honed into a smiling one ??? Those darn small hones is how . Guys trying to save a dollar by not buying the proper equipment .

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When you say "warped blade" and "smiling edge" in the same paragraph, I'm wondering if you are using them interchangeably. To me a warped blade is one where the center touches the hone, and the ends do not, on one side and the ends touch the hone, and the center does not, on the other side. How do you correct that on a wide hone? It seems to me that, if you hone down the ends so that the center touches, you would have a smile and if you honed down the center so the ends touch, you'd have a frown. Right?