Any Tax Accountants/Attorneys?

AndrewWiggin · Apr 12, 2010

Is anyone here a tax accountant or a tax attorney? I'm about to finish my undergraduate program and will be going for a Master's and then sitting for the CPA.

My thought is to work in tax for a few years, and then get an LLM in tax. Does anyone have any experience with this, or any ideas as to what that would do for earnings potential?

And if you're an accountant or an attorney, is this even a good idea?

Wil Dorenbos · Apr 12, 2010

Yes, tax accountant, but I am Dutch...But even so I think it is a great idea :thumbup1:

JBjunior · Apr 12, 2010

AndrewWiggin said:
Is anyone here a tax accountant or a tax attorney? I'm about to finish my undergraduate program and will be going for a Master's and then sitting for the CPA.

My thought is to work in tax for a few years, and then get an LLM in tax. Does anyone have any experience with this, or any ideas as to what that would do for earnings potential?

And if you're an accountant or an attorney, is this even a good idea?

So you don't plan on getting your JD but plan on going for an LLM? You would have to have your JD before you get any Masters in Law. We are the only country that does this and it is the only degree program where you have to have your doctorate before your masters. If you have found differing information let me know, I am leaning heavily to law school if the stars align for me.

AndrewWiggin · Apr 12, 2010

JBjunior said:
So you don't plan on getting your JD but plan on going for an LLM? You would have to have your JD before you get any Masters in Law. We are the only country that does this and it is the only degree program where you have to have your doctorate before your masters. If you have found differing information let me know, I am leaning heavily to law school if the stars align for me.

No, I meant JD and LLM. I'm not sure if I'd space them or not. Sorry that wasn't clear.

The only thing I've read is that if you want to get an LLM in something other than tax, don't. And if the LLM doesn't come from NYU, Georgetown and I think like two other universities, don't do it.

I have no idea if this is the case, which is why I'm asking...

pyrrhusmj · Apr 12, 2010

AndrewWiggin said:
No, I meant JD and LLM. I'm not sure if I'd space them or not. Sorry that wasn't clear.

The only thing I've read is that if you want to get an LLM in something other than tax, don't. And if the LLM doesn't come from NYU, Georgetown and I think like two other universities, don't do it.

I have no idea if this is the case, which is why I'm asking...

I have quite a few friends in tax, some with LLM's some without, and earnings all depend on you. If you are working in tax law when you get your LLM, you probably didn't need it. Most go for their tax LLM's to get a job, some to try and get a better job, but those are far and few between. Being a CPA is your best bet if you just want accounting and add the JD if you want to work on the legal side of the house. No matter what you do, network your rear off, it will do a wallet good.

Of course others may disagree.

Michael

Sparafucile · Apr 12, 2010

AndrewWiggin said:
Is anyone here a tax accountant or a tax attorney? I'm about to finish my undergraduate program and will be going for a Master's and then sitting for the CPA.

My thought is to work in tax for a few years, and then get an LLM in tax. Does anyone have any experience with this, or any ideas as to what that would do for earnings potential?

And if you're an accountant or an attorney, is this even a good idea?

I'm a Lawyer, 30 years experience. The job market is at an all-time low now, even here in NYC, even at the top law firms, even for tax lawyers. Salaries are down - I've taken a cut, and (obviously) haven't seen a bonus or raise since 2006.....

OTOH, if you graduate at the top of your class from an ivy, and clerk for a SC Justice, you'll do well.....

Sorry I don't have better news....

AndrewWiggin · Apr 12, 2010

Sparafucile said:
I'm a Lawyer, 30 years experience. The job market is at an all-time low now, even here in NYC, even at the top law firms, even for tax lawyers. Salaries are down - I've taken a cut, and (obviously) haven't seen a bonus or raise since 2006.....

OTOH, if you graduate at the top of your class from an ivy, and clerk for a SC Justice, you'll do well.....

Sorry I don't have better news....

Could you give an opinion on an up market? I won't be pursuing this for several years at least. If the economy hasn't improved by then... Let's not think about that.

Anyway, in a good time, does it make a difference?

pyrrhusmj · Apr 12, 2010

AndrewWiggin said:
Could you give an opinion on an up market? I won't be pursuing this for several years at least. If the economy hasn't improved by then... Let's not think about that.

Anyway, in a good time, does it make a difference?

It's been a down market for the past 20 years with minor periods of upswing. He is right, law is a tough industry to make it. I came out of law school and was laid off before I started (2000) because I went with a tech boutique that paid very well and promised moderate billables (1900 for first years to make your base, but I did learn later that everyone below 2200 hours were performance reviewed out and 2400 hours for chance of promotion) then the bubble hit while I was studying for the bar and the Austin office closed. From there I took a contract job in-house and got lucky with a case that saved the company quite a bit of money and was brought on full-time. Then was downsized 5 years later when my group was merged with a group that consisted of mostly senior attorneys at the VP level. This came after winning the companies highest award and being given an executive mentorship. Left there and decided I wanted a job that required less than 70 hr weeks and went to the government. Got sick of making the literally 1/3 of my former corporate salary and now work in house for a small oil & gas firm with a solid 6-figure salary after being cut 20% due to the downturn, but only work about 50 hr weeks and finally have a life.

I know this isn't tax related except that most of my tax friends have had a much tougher time and few, including the LLM's from a top school have cracked 125k a year. Yes several started at big firms, but it takes a certain personality to make it in biglaw or even bigtex/bigny/bigcal/bigdc etc more than a year or two. Of course you have to get the job first and firms have slashed their first year classes due to the downturn. Then to make it worse, many more were deferred to start a year or two later which keeps cutting don the number of future first year classes. Then mega-firms are merging and consolidating, again cutting more of the highest paying jobs.

On the flip side you have the small firms that pay crap with the thought that thy are training you to go out on your own and treat it like a medical residency.

You can always hang your own shingle if you are a very good salesman and businessman. If you are a good salesman and businessman you can become filthy rich. And if your firm is not PI, it might get sucked in to a biglaw firm for a nice chunk of equity. I'm not the business owner type, so I work a good job at a good salary and just wait until it's time to reinvent myself again.

Sparafucile gave you kind of the doomsday look at it, I tried to make it a little more real. I can't complain, was never a great student, skipped class, didn't outline, studied the bare minimum, but always managed to the right of the middle unless it was a class I liked (Crim Pro was one I loved) but I have done pretty well with salaries depending on the year and job between 85k at the low end and a little over 200 in my best years so far.

Tax friends are in the 45-250 range, PI friends are in the 70-1 million range. The couple of friends that have made it in a corporate law firm , that I am close to. 1 is of-counsel and is a very hard worker but will never been a salesman. 1 is a non-equity track partner doing very well but at the end of his road. The final is a senior associate coming out oh JAG and the USAG's office Most are in DFW/AUSTIN/HOUSTON with a few in DC and New York. None in Cali. And higher salaries pretty much follow the schools attended. There are just more opportunities for students that go to the top 5 schools or show, but the curve droops steeply when you hit about number 10 down to 3rd and 4th tier schools just placing a few students in the top jobs.

I didn't tell you all of this to discourage you, but to make sure you realize it better be something you love because the odds are against you making big money in any facet of law including Patent. On the flip side, you will usually make a good salary, above what most in other careers will make in life.

Now if it is all about money, go be a salesman...... heck I wouldn't even say doctor as I watch my best friend struggle in private practice. If it's about finding a field you love working in....... than money doesn't matter anyway.

Michael

Jim B. · Apr 12, 2010

pyrrhusmj said:
It's been a down market for the past 20 years with minor periods of upswing. He is right, law is a tough industry to make it. I came out of law school and was laid off before I started (2000) because I went with a tech boutique that paid very well and promised moderate billables (1900 for first years to make your base, but I did learn later that everyone below 2200 hours were performance reviewed out and 2400 hours for chance of promotion) then the bubble hit while I was studying for the bar and the Austin office closed. From there I took a contract job in-house and got lucky with a case that saved the company quite a bit of money and was brought on full-time. Then was downsized 5 years later when my group was merged with a group that consisted of mostly senior attorneys at the VP level. This came after winning the companies highest award and being given an executive mentorship. Left there and decided I wanted a job that required less than 70 hr weeks and went to the government. Got sick of making the literally 1/3 of my former corporate salary and now work in house for a small oil & gas firm with a solid 6-figure salary after being cut 20% due to the downturn, but only work about 50 hr weeks and finally have a life.

I know this isn't tax related except that most of my tax friends have had a much tougher time and few, including the LLM's from a top school have cracked 125k a year. Yes several started at big firms, but it takes a certain personality to make it in biglaw or even bigtex/bigny/bigcal/bigdc etc more than a year or two. Of course you have to get the job first and firms have slashed their first year classes due to the downturn. Then to make it worse, many more were deferred to start a year or two later which keeps cutting don the number of future first year classes. Then mega-firms are merging and consolidating, again cutting more of the highest paying jobs.

On the flip side you have the small firms that pay crap with the thought that thy are training you to go out on your own and treat it like a medical residency.

You can always hang your own shingle if you are a very good salesman and businessman. If you are a good salesman and businessman you can become filthy rich. And if your firm is not PI, it might get sucked in to a biglaw firm for a nice chunk of equity. I'm not the business owner type, so I work a good job at a good salary and just wait until it's time to reinvent myself again.

Sparafucile gave you kind of the doomsday look at it, I tried to make it a little more real. I can't complain, was never a great student, skipped class, didn't outline, studied the bare minimum, but always managed to the right of the middle unless it was a class I liked (Crim Pro was one I loved) but I have done pretty well with salaries depending on the year and job between 85k at the low end and a little over 200 in my best years so far.

Tax friends are in the 45-250 range, PI friends are in the 70-1 million range. The couple of friends that have made it in a corporate law firm , that I am close to. 1 is of-counsel and is a very hard worker but will never been a salesman. 1 is a non-equity track partner doing very well but at the end of his road. The final is a senior associate coming out oh JAG and the USAG's office Most are in DFW/AUSTIN/HOUSTON with a few in DC and New York. None in Cali. And higher salaries pretty much follow the schools attended. There are just more opportunities for students that go to the top 5 schools or show, but the curve droops steeply when you hit about number 10 down to 3rd and 4th tier schools just placing a few students in the top jobs.

I didn't tell you all of this to discourage you, but to make sure you realize it better be something you love because the odds are against you making big money in any facet of law including Patent. On the flip side, you will usually make a good salary, above what most in other careers will make in life.

Now if it is all about money, go be a salesman...... heck I wouldn't even say doctor as I watch my best friend struggle in private practice. If it's about finding a field you love working in....... than money doesn't matter anyway.

Michael

+1 based on my 34 years as a lawyer in California. Have made a good, not great, living but have hated nearly every minute of it. Life is much better now that I am pretty much retired.

pyrrhusmj · Apr 13, 2010

Jim B. said:
+1 based on my 34 years as a lawyer in California. Have made a good, not great, living but have hated nearly every minute of it. Life is much better now that I am pretty much retired.

On the flip side, I have liked most of it and even loved some of it. The day to day paper pushing is is not fun, but there are fun little gems now and then.

Michael

AndrewWiggin · Apr 13, 2010

I know this isn't in line with the information you've given, but I was under the impression that a lawyer in a decent firm brought home around $400k a year (family friends).

Is that possible? One was involved in real estate law and the other was involved with copyright law.

pyrrhusmj · Apr 13, 2010

AndrewWiggin said:
I know this isn't in line with the information you've given, but I was under the impression that a lawyer in a decent firm brought home around $400k a year (family friends).

Is that possible? One was involved in real estate law and the other was involved with copyright law.

Few, very very few make that much, and I don't think anyone is saying you won't do well, we don't know you or your future, just trying to give you a realistic expectation of the industry. I think the average salary is close to 150k a year for all lawyers which will include the top of their game named biglaw partner all the way down to the new DA and public interest attorney.
But yes you can do that well in Real Estate and when I was at the top of my salary so far it was in copyrights which eventually transformed into privacy. But 400k is not the norm, even for a 20 or 30 year guy. If you work hard and make the right contacts in a good firm and can take the hours, yes the sky is the limit..... but it is getting there that is difficult. If you are sold on getting your JD and possibly LLM along with making a fortune make sure you do what it takes to get into a top 5 school (since you are in Texas now, not even UT will open the doors a top 5 school will) and make sure you are noticed academically there and network network network.... Then you will have maximized your chances at eventually hitting the top salaries. Or you can always get a billboard and an afternoon commercial

Otherwise, like others have said...... you will make a good living, just not necessarily a great living.

Michael

Strikermike · Apr 13, 2010

This is a little off topic. But I have 2 close friends that are independent court reporters. Their best year was 300k plus they average a little over 200k. More than a lot of lawyers.

AndrewWiggin · Apr 13, 2010

I'm not necessarily looking to make a fortune, but I have heard from others that you double your money from being a Tax Accountant if you become a Tax Attorney, which I think is probably correct, unless you become a partner at a big 4 firm.

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Any Tax Accountants/Attorneys?

AndrewWiggin

Wil Dorenbos

JBjunior

AndrewWiggin

pyrrhusmj

Sparafucile

AndrewWiggin

pyrrhusmj

Jim B.

pyrrhusmj

AndrewWiggin

pyrrhusmj

Strikermike

AndrewWiggin

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