Question for Vietnam Vets or other history teachers/military experts...

I'm currently doing my student teaching in an 11th grade history class. My school's in an upper-middle class suburb that's also next to an Air Force base, so most of these kids are either fairly spoiled or are military brats (some both, but most of the military kids are my best students). It's an interesting mix for sure. We just started our unit on the Vietnam War, starting with the French colonialism and just now getting into to the escalation of the war. When it's all said and done, we're going to spend about 5 weeks on it.

I didn't learn a lot about Vietnam when I was in school because we never had enough time. Now, a lot of schools are changing their curriculum so that they start the school year after the Civil War, with everything previous to that being covered in other years in school. This means we get more time to cover the Cold War, Vietnam, the 1980s, and other historical eras previously given little to no attention.

As someone who doesn't have any close relatives or friends who fought in Vietnam and who didn't get to study it in school, I'm learning a lot of this stuff along with my students. Is there anything in particular that I need to tell them, anything important that gets overlooked or lost? For you vets, if you were standing in front of my class what would you tell them? I want my students to understand this war, this time period, and be able to have open and honest discussions about it.

Thanks for the help. Any ideas/suggestions are appreciated.

Here's a good resource for you.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/

My Dad is a Vietnam Vet. I interviewed him as a class project twice, once for a Vietnam course I took in High School for extra credits and another time for a college course on American Military History.

He talked about being drafted, boot camp, NCO school, going on patrol out of the firebase, etc. etc., but the thing that always stuck with me and I think makes for an interesting compare/contrast is the way those guys were treated when the came home. Iraq and Afghanistan today are controversial and debated as was Vietnam, yet the troops of today are treated a lot better than my Dad was when he came home. I think it's really enlightening about the culture and social views at the time, etc. A lot of these guys had fathers that fought in WW2 with their stories and experiences and the way they were treated as heroes and suddenly they came home with no fanfare and sometimes with no thanks at all.

The after effects of Vietnam on American society is a very interesting study. I'm not sure what place it really has in a History class, depending on what you are teaching. You just have to look at things like Platoon, Born on the 4th of July, The Things They Carried, etc. etc. to see the effects.

Military-wise, you might want to delve into how handicapped the US forces where when it came with what they could not do, go into Cambodia, etc. etc. Also the guerilla tactics used by the VC and how many times the US won battles, only not to have won anything at all.

Amer said:

but the thing that always stuck with me and I think makes for an interesting compare/contrast is the way those guys were treated when the came home. Iraq and Afghanistan today are controversial and debated as was Vietnam, yet the troops of today are treated a lot better than my Dad was when he came home. I think it's really enlightening about the culture and social views at the time, etc. A lot of these guys had fathers that fought in WW2 with their stories and experiences and the way they were treated as heroes and suddenly they came home with no fanfare and sometimes with no thanks at all.

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This is the first thing that jumped out at me as well. My Father served during Vietnam (though he did not go to Vietnam) and for every story of random people shaking my hand or crowds clapping as I walked off of the plane after a deployment he has ten of being booed, yelled at, or spat upon. I think it is important for all Vets of that era that the children of today and tomorrow learn just how wrong it is/was to treat Vets that way. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines follow orders, its what we do. We may not always agree with everything 100% but we follow orders.

Michael Herr's landmark account Dispatches is a remarkable document of the conflict, and a milestone of modern journalism. Although your school district may frown on some of the dialogue (Imagine, grunts actually used profanity in combat!) it's a total-body immersion in the experience--one of the best books ever written about war.

Talk to your local VFW or VA I'm sure there are many happy to talk about their experiences, some may even find the experience beneficial for treatment of PTSD. I'm in the UK so we do not officially have Vietnam Vets (Australia and NZ do though...).

When I did part of my degree course on Vietnam I found it good to gauge knowledge with a short quiz, then follow it up with a brief time line leading up to Vietnam at home and of course in Vietnam itself, such as the Kent State shootings etc. and of course the immoluation practised by the buddist monks. This really hits home and gives an all over impression of the world then. Then lead on to the War itself, several good films exist, such as "Born on the 4th of July". I'll try and dig out my notes if you'd like, the pack rat I am means they are probably around somewhere. When talking about the war itself I found the many pictures avaliable through time and other magazine sites to be very useful, the iconic images of Mai Lai, the girl running from the Napalm etc. and then of course the G.I. images that were heavily used, if your students are old enough, a viewing of Full metal jacket may add an interesting dimension to public perception, however I don't know what ages you'll cover as everyone on my courses were 18+++

The three textbooks I worked from are:

Hoffman and Gjerde's "Major problems in American History, Volume 2: Since 1865" - This has some good chapters on Vietnam and the political turmoil it caused.

Isserman and Kazin's "America Divided; The Civil War of the 1960s"

&

Heale's "The Sixties in America; History, Politics & Protest"

There are of course others but these were the ones required by the University.

I hope this is of some help

ATB,
Tom

Amer said:

...but the thing that always stuck with me and I think makes for an interesting compare/contrast is the way those guys were treated when the came home. Iraq and Afghanistan today are controversial and debated as was Vietnam, yet the troops of today are treated a lot better than...

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This sticks out most to me as well.

My dad was a Colonel in the Army from WWII into Vietnam, my brother and sister are Vietnam vets, I lost a cousin over there, and I missed being a Vietnam vet by 2 years. We all went in voluntarily.

If I were standing in front of your class, I would tell them that the Vietnam War era was a time of upheaval in American history. The war in Vietnam was escalating, the Cold war was at its peak at the brink of a possible nuclear war between the ‘Super Powers’, a President was assassinated, racial tensions increased across the country, a great civil rights leader was assassinated, a senator running for President was assassinated, protesters getting shot on campus, defense contractors getting rich…

Warranted or not, there was a lot of distrust directed at the government. Unfortunately, the American Soldier was a face the general population could readily identify as part of the government they ‘hated’ and was an easier target than our elected officials. The outrage of the “make love not war” groups had pigeonholed all vets as ‘baby killers’, even vets that were never ‘in country’, just as I had pigeonholed the “make love not war” groups.

If I were in front of your class, I would place emphasis that it took far too long for people to realize that regardless of how you may feel about a war as an individual, that all of our armed forces personnel are doing a job they were assigned to do. They swore an oath to follow the direction of our elected leaders and to defend our country against all enemies, foreign and domestic. They deserve every ounce of respect that can be extended for maintaining the honor and integrity of serving our country, which allows its citizens to speak and act out freely, even against those same soldiers defending those rights.

Who knows, if things keep going the way they are, your students may see another civil war in their lifetime.

I was draft age during Vietnam. I was strongly against the war and applied for Conscientious Objector status. I did two years of alternative service in a mental hospital.

The way the returning vets were treated was an absolute scandal and I was always careful to be polite and respectful for the courage they demonstrated and the sacrifices that they made, even though I thought that the war was wrong.

In regard to your question, two things come to mind. One is the effect that the My Lai Massacre had on everyone on both sides of the issue. My application for CO status came before the draft board right at the time that Lt. Calley was indicted. Draft boards all over the country were furious because they were sending young men over there to fight and they didn't think it was right for them to be prosecuted. They actually stopped drafting people for a while and applications for CO status, like mine, were automatically approved.

The second thing, and I don't want to start an argument here, is that the war accomplished nothing that was worth the sacrifices that were made and the same thing could probably be said for all wars. But, given that I was a CO, what else could I say?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zdH09mWVF8[/youtube]Might as well expose your students to the OTHER side of history, too.

I'm sure that there are lots of guys who will chime in with good sources. If you want to talk about the French in Indochina, I would recommend reading through "Street Without Joy" or "Hell in a Very Small Place." Both by Bernard Fall.

William Broyles, creater of China Beach and (I believe) the screenwriter for Jarhead, wrote an impressive essay about his experiences as a Marine Platoon Commander called "Why Men Love War." Someone has already mentioned the novel "The Things They Carried"--a really memorable book. Even if you have absolutely no interest in Vietnam, you should read it. I also like "Dispatches" by Michael Herr--a strange and challenging account. Philip Caputo's "Rumor of War" is also compelling, and presents a morally ambivalent narrative of a Marine's war. Jim Webb's novel "Fields of Fire" is also one of the better fictional accounts of the war.

dpm802 said:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zdH09mWVF8[/youtube]Might as well expose your students to the OTHER side of history, too.

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Great song, and very evocative of the time.

Tom

When I was in 11th grade, the war had been going on for most of years in which I was able to read or reason. It was in the newspaper and on TV every day. And the most important thing to me was the draft, something you may have trouble understanding at your age and something even less concrete to your students. We have been at war in Afghanistan since 2002 and Iraq since 2003, when they were in elementary school, without even one person being sent to fight against his will.

Try to get your students to imagine what it would be like if every male in the room knew, for sure, that within a year or two the government would force him to risk his life as a soldier, go to prison for resisting, leave the country and every person he knew permanently (so far as anyone knew at the time), or, if he got lucky in the lottery or got a deferment, not. (If you don't know about the draft lottery and deferments, they're worth looking into.)

The Vietnam War, like WWII and Korea, meant a lot to everyone because we all shared the risk of losing our lives or the lives of our loved ones. Unlike WWII and Korea, however, the favored classes could get out of it--only two or three congressmen or senators had sons who served in in Vietnam. The contrast with today's situation might make your students appreciate today's volunteer military even more.

Here's the life links:

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gallery/23073/vietnam-war-in-the-sky

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gallery/23076/vietnam-support-for-the-war

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gallery/22969/vietnam-protesting-the-war

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gallery/23075/vietnam-children-of-war

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gallery/25822/vietnam-war-the-fall-of-saigon

Tom

Unknownsoldier said:

Here's the life links:

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gallery/23073/vietnam-war-in-the-sky

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gallery/23076/vietnam-support-for-the-war

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gallery/22969/vietnam-protesting-the-war

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gallery/23075/vietnam-children-of-war

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gallery/25822/vietnam-war-the-fall-of-saigon

Tom

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Cool source!

My sense is that it is really too soon to be teaching the Viet Nam war as history, at least the US involvement. I think it is still difficult for anyone to have an objective view or to know the really meaning and effects of the war.

There used to be a very good series of lectures available from The Teaching Company on the Viet Nam war from a military perspective that I thought was very enlightening. But it does not seem to be available anymore, at least last time I checked, which has been a while. It may have been withdraw because the lecturer emphasized the lessons learned in Viet Nam that were being successfully applied in Iraq. It was early in that war.

SlagleRock said:

Cool source!

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It is really super useful for finding those HTF pictures and some of the interviews avaliable elsewhre give a real insight.

cstrother said:

My sense is that it is really too soon to be teaching the Viet Nam war as history [The second it happened it became history, no getting away from that.], at least the US involvement. I think it is still difficult for anyone to have an objective view or to know the really meaning and effects of the war [I would suggest going by this logic, Vietnam would never be taught, one can only teach as it is found and alter as things expand, history afterall is an organic and everchanging, developing, evolving form and is one of the key stones in virtually every other subject somewhere along the line, look at science history shows us that the according to science the earth was flat, the body had four humors and that the sun revolved around earth.... they were dispelled and changed as their understanding grew, much the same will happen with Vietnam.].

There used to be a very good series of lectures available from The Teaching Company on the Viet Nam war from a military perspective that I thought was very enlightening. But it does not seem to be available anymore, at least last time I checked, which has been a while. It may have been withdraw because the lecturer emphasized the lessons learned in Viet Nam that were being successfully applied in Iraq. It was early in that war.

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Now I disagree, as a history student I've studied from Alfred the Great to the war in Afghanistan and believe you me, being objective, even on old stuff is still hard. Especially with local divides between N/S and even areas because of age old rivalry's between fotball teams and battle sides drawn, look at the wars of the roses, still going on to this day... my Uncle will only have white roses, never red.... he'd behead any coming in his garden!

Objectivity is something that whilst widely taught and talked about is impossible to get around no matter how new/old the subject, and many of the problems historians today are facing is lack of primary evidence, there is lots of tertiary evidence, but little primary or even secondary, something which there is an abundance of with Vietnam and whilst sources may give one side, this only allows the subject to be broached and other aspect/angles/opinions explored and notated. This gives us the opportunity to really get to grips with history. If we took a postmodernist approach to Vietnam, you could go even further with your distrust, but for school children I think a basic overview will suffice.

Tom

So far it appears I'm the first that can say, to quite Elmer Keith, "Hell, I was there."

Unfortunately, the lessons of Viet Nam have yet to be learned.

The main point is that no matter how good the military, if the government does not have the will to do what is needed to win quickly, support of the people will evaporate and the mission will fail.

I was there. Coming home was like walking into a 3rd-degree interrogation in most places. I'll leave my experience at that as far as this thread goes, but I recommend that DVD series with Walter Cronkite.

To be anti-war is one thing, to be anti-armed forces is to me, unthinkable, afterall you have no say where you go or what you do, you are ordered forth.

Tom

Gents, lets all try and keep on topic for the OP. We don't need to debate the war, or the varying points of view. The op is simply looking for good educational resources. So far this has been a great thread and I'd hate to see it slip off topic.