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Thread: "Good" Williams - Sodium Tallowate first?

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    Default "Good" Williams - Sodium Tallowate first?

    I know Williams has undergone many changes since 1840, and besides the basic mug soap, there have been luxury and menthol variations, as well as sticks, powders and creams.

    Of the more recent vintage Williams pucks, is the listing of Sodium Tallowate first mark it as "old formula" Williams in your book?

    I have several older pucks that start the ingredients list that way, and they certainly seem to lather easier than the current Potassium Stearate first pucks.
    Last edited by Topgumby; 02-20-2010 at 02:22 PM.
    "He must be a king. He hasn't got Williams all over 'im!" - cb91710
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    Default interesting

    I tried a laundry soap called Zote a few days ago. The first ingredient listed was sodium tallowate with 66% fatty acid content, made some very rich lather. any thoughts?
    Beat Cop with a Paddle Strop

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnichron View Post
    I tried a laundry soap called Zote a few days ago. The first ingredient listed was sodium tallowate with 66% fatty acid content, made some very rich lather. any thoughts?
    Did it get your clothes clean?
    Mark

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    Sodium tallowate is tallow (beef fat) that is now soap after saponification with lye. Sodium tallowate is the INCI name (international nomenclature).

    Two forms of lye may be used to make soap. NOH for hard bars or KOH for soft soap. Sometimes a mixture of both NOH and KOH.
    Sue

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    Thanks, Sue.

    The soap in question used to have an ingredients list like so:

    Sodium tallowate
    Potassium Stearate
    Sodium Cocoate
    Water
    Glycerin
    Tetrasodium Etidronate
    Pentasodium Pentatate
    Fragrance
    Titanium Dioxide


    Then, it got reformulated (I think) and now it's

    Potassium Stearate
    Sodium tallowate
    Sodium Cocoate
    Water
    Glycerin
    Fragrance
    Sodium Chloride
    Titanium Dioxide
    Stearic acid
    Pentasodium Pentetate
    Tetrasodium Etidronate
    May also contain Sodium Palm Kernalelate


    I think I have all the sodiumates in the right order, spelled right...

    Anyhow, the first list of ingredients is a fairly easy to lather product. The second set of ingredients seems to give a lot of folks fits.

    Is there an obvious reason for this? Could the change in ingredients be merely a change in packaging laws? Williams trivialists want to know!
    "He must be a king. He hasn't got Williams all over 'im!" - cb91710
    I spend my knights at the Veg Table.

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    Default

    Zote soap ingredients:


    Sodium Tallowate
    Sodium Cocoate
    Fragance
    Optical Brightener
    Dye
    Beat Cop with a Paddle Strop

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    Quote Originally Posted by mmack66 View Post
    Did it get your clothes clean?
    terry towels are sparkling white.. no kidding!
    Beat Cop with a Paddle Strop

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnichron View Post
    I tried a laundry soap called Zote a few days ago. The first ingredient listed was sodium tallowate with 66% fatty acid content, made some very rich lather. any thoughts?
    How was the shave? I bet your face was glowing with the Optical Brightener.

    I've seen it and considered buying it but I wasn't really sure how to use it.
    TheBigL



    Nick Rivers: Hillary. That's an unusual name.
    Hillary Flammond: It's a German name. It means 'she whose bosoms defy gravity'.
    Nick Rivers: I'm pleased to meet you. My name's Nick.
    Hillary Flammond: Nick? What does that mean?
    Nick Rivers: Oh, nothing. My dad thought of it while he was shaving.
    -Top Secret

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    Sodium tallowate is tallow (beef fat) that is now soap after saponification with lye. Sodium tallowate is the INCI name (international nomenclature).

    Two forms of lye may be used to make soap. NOH for hard bars or KOH for soft soap. Sometimes a mixture of both NOH and KOH.
    Sue
    Minor correction, NaOH, i.e., sodium hydroxide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctakim View Post
    Minor correction, NaOH, i.e., sodium hydroxide.
    Picky, picky, picky . I stand corrected.
    Sue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omnichron View Post
    Zote soap ingredients:


    Sodium Tallowate
    Sodium Cocoate
    Fragance
    Optical Brightener
    Dye
    The INCI names are not on the label. Tallowate and cocoate is saponified tallow and coconut. An optical brightener is frequently titanium dioxide and dye usually is noted also by INCI such as Violet 2, or Green 5 etc. Companies with the big bux behind them can be exempted from this if they can prove damage to their "proprietary" ingredients.
    Sue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topgumby View Post
    Thanks, Sue.

    The soap in question used to have an ingredients list like so:

    Sodium tallowate
    Potassium Stearate
    Sodium Cocoate
    Water
    Glycerin
    Tetrasodium Etidronate
    Pentasodium Pentatate
    Fragrance
    Titanium Dioxide

    Then, it got reformulated (I think) and now it's

    Potassium Stearate
    Sodium tallowate
    Sodium Cocoate
    Water
    Glycerin
    Fragrance
    Sodium Chloride
    Titanium Dioxide
    Stearic acid
    Pentasodium Pentetate
    Tetrasodium Etidronate
    May also contain Sodium Palm Kernalelate

    I think I have all the sodiumates in the right order, spelled right...

    Anyhow, the first list of ingredients is a fairly easy to lather product. The second set of ingredients seems to give a lot of folks fits.

    Is there an obvious reason for this? Could the change in ingredients be merely a change in packaging laws? Williams trivialists want to know!

    The amount of tallow is now second in order of predominance of ingredients.
    Stearic acid has been added also.

    That's how ingredients are listed, order of predominance. As far as as true recipe, it is not.

    Think making a chocolate cake. The ratio of flour to bakers chocolate will be higher. But two chocolate cakes may taste very different depending on how much chocolate has been added.... but the amount of flour will always be more than the chocolate if you were to list the cake ingredients in order of predominance.

    The same holds true in making a soap. If I send you the ingredients for my most superb :) chocolate cake as: flour, eggs, butter, dark cocoa, vanilla and Red 1, how much of each ingredient would you use.

    I hope this makes sense?
    Sue

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    Picky, picky, picky . I stand corrected.
    Sue
    Sorry! I was a chemistry major in college!!

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    Parenthetically, I have an old vintage puck of Williams that I got in a lot buy of razors and stuff off the Bay and I was amazed at how well it lathered compared to the modern Williams I tried from the local drug store. There is a difference in the tallow version IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctakim View Post
    Sorry! I was a chemistry major in college!!
    Yeah, excuses, excuses LOL, what is this thing called "college"?
    Sue

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctakim View Post
    Parenthetically, I have an old vintage puck of Williams that I got in a lot buy of razors and stuff off the Bay and I was amazed at how well it lathered compared to the modern Williams I tried from the local drug store. There is a difference in the tallow version IMHO.
    The old stuff, apparently can be subdivided further. There's "new old stuff" that has the second ingredient list, and there is an older formulation that was used up to the early 70's or late 60's, I think.

    In addition, the "luxury" soap was also different, perhaps in formulation and scent. It may have retained the rose scent of very early Williams.

    What I know about the stuff I've mostly learned from BobK1 and Clubman Rob. Seems a shame that there is no consolidated, detailed information on something so closely linked to American Wet Shaving.
    "He must be a king. He hasn't got Williams all over 'im!" - cb91710
    I spend my knights at the Veg Table.

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    To further confuse matters, there are two UPC codes in play.

    322170230330 is the Tallow first stuff
    011509230331 is the Potassium Stearate first stuff.
    "He must be a king. He hasn't got Williams all over 'im!" - cb91710
    I spend my knights at the Veg Table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topgumby View Post
    To further confuse matters, there are two UPC codes in play.

    322170230330 is the Tallow first stuff
    011509230331 is the Potassium Stearate first stuff.
    Both UPCs are registered to Combe, who took over manufacturing Williams in 2002. Is it possible that Williams was reformulated by Combe and tallow was the first ingredient as recently as 2002 ?



    - Peter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sue View Post
    The INCI names are not on the label. Tallowate and cocoate is saponified tallow and coconut. An optical brightener is frequently titanium dioxide and dye usually is noted also by INCI such as Violet 2, or Green 5 etc. Companies with the big bux behind them can be exempted from this if they can prove damage to their "proprietary" ingredients.
    Sue
    ah... interesting info. I shall not try Zote again.
    Beat Cop with a Paddle Strop

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greybeard View Post
    Both UPCs are registered to Combe, who took over manufacturing Williams in 2002. Is it possible that Williams was reformulated by Combe and tallow was the first ingredient as recently as 2002 ?



    - Peter
    I'd sure like to know what the timeline is!
    "He must be a king. He hasn't got Williams all over 'im!" - cb91710
    I spend my knights at the Veg Table.

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