Bart - thanks for the thoughts. Definitely not too technical - with such things, if you dont understand the science/physics of what's going on, at a certain point you just have to take your knowledge on faith (or on experience, with one thing working better than another, or whatever). But a few follow-ups: 1) shouldnt there be a way to remove the slight burr you're talking about? 2) why is it, anyway, that you do edge-first on a hone and edge-trailing on strops (even a bench strop; and I thought even a "bench hone," balsa with e.g. CrOx?) ? you seem like you understyand the physics enough to know that answer, 3) dont you still need some smoothing agent, like a CR02 after you use your coticule/hones? 4) I was told to use the CrOx after I use diamond pastes, even as small as .25 micron. If the CrOx has a particle size of .5 micron, is it then not suitable for use after anything smaller than .5 micron? (I dont think any hone - like a barber, coticule, 16K, or even 30K, is working finer than .5 micron, but I could be wrong?)?
My first no-irritation straight shave
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I got in another shave today, 1 WTG and 1 XTG pass. Achieved CCS, but with increased irritation. I was feeling the scraping/sandpaper type feel that I felt a week ago, so am thinking of a few laps on CroX now.
Queequeeg - definitely interested in hearing answers to your questions as well.
Queequeeg - definitely interested in hearing answers to your questions as well.
Bart: speaking only as a newbie who is beginning to encounter these issues, I can only say, "Please keep going!"
What I understand of this is greatly informative, and what I don't understand, I'll just file away for future referenceI know there'll come a point where what was abstract to me in the discussion becomes concrete and practical to me, and I will be able to refer back to it profitably.
Thanks for sharing so freely of your knowledge.
The simple answer to that is, Balsa, Leather, etc. that which we use to create strops with have the "give" that Bart was talking about earlier, that give, even when the razor is lying flat on the strop, is enough to dig the edge into the material that is used for the strop
Hones, on the other hand, are Solid Chunks of silicate, whether it be an escher, barbers hone, jnat, or whatever, They have not got the give that strops do...
Here's where you get to experiment a little, Try running your razor edge first on the strop, Bet ya it'd dig in, cause a nice large chunk to be sliced out of the strop, if not a slice deep enough to cut the strop in two. That is why we strop edge leading, Not because it benefits the edge (well, it does, but the polishing action works both ways, heck, you can possibly even strop going parallel to the edge rather then perpendicular), but because it saves us having to purchase a strop every week. That gets kinda pricey that does...
And Tony Miller would get upset if we kept destroying his beautiful creations
I hope not. Because that "slight burr" is the very tip of the edge itself (on an edge that was shaped primarily edge trailing). Remove it, and you are removing that final bit of keenness that you were after in the first place.
Couldn't explain it any better than LaughinAtfate in the previous post. With one small remark: I think that stropping on clean leather is the only exception. It does require edge trailing, because the very principle of clean leather stropping is not to abrade, but to (re)align extremely small bur-like structures present at the very tip of the bevel. Let's look at a picture, borrowed from the excellent paper of Prof. Verhoeven. It a photo from a Scanning Electron Microscope image out of his study about knife sharpening.
In both the image at the left (which show the very tip of a cutting bevel) and the image at the right (which shows the side of the bevel tip), you can clearly see these bur-like structures. Mini-burrs so to speak. It is my understanding that efficient leather stropping "irons" these structures all in the same direction. An alignment they tend to loose from the stresses that occur during the shave, hence the need to re-strop.
"Finish" honing is not about width of scratches, it's about depth of scratches. Diamond particles are the hardest abrasive particles available. They cut aggressively and relatively deep. Other substance, like CrO, are softer. They make shallower grooves, which will result in a smoother edge.
We're not just slicing tomatoes with our razors. The idea is to sever hair and NOT remove skin cells at the same time. That calls for the right amount of keenness, and for the absence of microscopical teeth. For that purpose some hones and abrasive compounds are more suitable than other. It also depends on a person's shaving style (pressure and angle), and what his skin will take, to know what type of edge gives him the best results.
Best regards,
Bart.
+1
I'd also like to add that the intelligent and articulate questions put forward by closer are as valuable to myself (str8 newb) and this wonderful thread as are the knowledgeable answers given in response.
Keep it up gents.
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Got a couple more shaves in. I'm still using my left hand for the left side of the face, and right hand for right side of the face. I'm getting better with control, and can get the upper lip as well as corners of the mouth/lower lip quite clean. Also, am getting better at following the curves of the jawline and chin, although not as close as I would like. Followed it up with an XTG pass on the face, and ATG pass on neck. Changed the XTG approach today, and liked it better - went from corner of lips to ear, rather than doing the reverse, found it more doable. Ended up with a nice clean shave, CCS+, even BBS in a couple of areas. Presentable for work.
I should add that I have not used CroX again, since the first WTG pass is quite comfortable. I am experiencing some minor irritation on the XTG pass, but guessing at least part of that is due to technique, since its improving with every shave. So, this has been 8 shaves with just the Filly strop leather surface.
One thing I've found is that straight razor shaving exposes any faults in prep. The prep I used for DE does not work anymore. In addition to cleaning my face with Neutrogena face wash, I now lather up and let the lather sit for a few minutes, while I strop, and that seems to help.
I should add that I have not used CroX again, since the first WTG pass is quite comfortable. I am experiencing some minor irritation on the XTG pass, but guessing at least part of that is due to technique, since its improving with every shave. So, this has been 8 shaves with just the Filly strop leather surface.
One thing I've found is that straight razor shaving exposes any faults in prep. The prep I used for DE does not work anymore. In addition to cleaning my face with Neutrogena face wash, I now lather up and let the lather sit for a few minutes, while I strop, and that seems to help.
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All - I need some help again. Yesterday, I touched up the razor with 10 laps on Crox, then stropped it on leather for 20 laps. Note: the last CrOX touchup was about 10 shaves ago. This morning, stropped on leather for about 50 laps, then shaved. I performed 2 passes, WTG and XTG - got a very close shave, close to DFS, but had more irritation than I've experienced in the last couple of weeks. Even on the first WTG pass, I experienced the sandpaper-type scraping feeling.
So, I'm confused - I thought touching up on CrOX would make the edge sharper, and more comfortable. It still seems sharp, since I got a close-to-DFS shave, but is definitely not comfortable anymore. Did I overdo the Crox? Or, did I not strop sufficiently on leather afterwards (I was doing 100 laps on leather previously, this time only did about 50). Or, is this a technique thing - maybe the blade angle was too steep? Any ideas?
So, I'm confused - I thought touching up on CrOX would make the edge sharper, and more comfortable. It still seems sharp, since I got a close-to-DFS shave, but is definitely not comfortable anymore. Did I overdo the Crox? Or, did I not strop sufficiently on leather afterwards (I was doing 100 laps on leather previously, this time only did about 50). Or, is this a technique thing - maybe the blade angle was too steep? Any ideas?
I think that's only logical. There is not a lot of reason why the razor would clip a hair shorter by performing a second identical pass.
I think you could be surprised by what an ATG (Against The Grain) pass can do for smoothness. It's nothing to be afraid of: just use short, gentle strokes, and keep the blade at a nearly flat angle.
That seems rather flat for WTG, but if it cuts the whiskers, I wouldn't worry about it. A steeper angle during WTG might clip the hairs shorter to the skin, but that is of no consequence if you are going to do a second pass ATG.
I consider it more or less a myth that stropping should be done at zero pressure. If you strop correctly, focused on the spine, so that the slight bend in the strop is mainly below the spine, you can get a way with more pressure than you would normally need in order to get some friction going. In my experience, friction seems key for efficient stropping on clean leather. (pasted stropping is an entirely different matter). If your strop has a lot of draw, it 'll demand for less pressure to achieve good friction. But if it has little draw, you need to counteract with more pressure. Obviously, the more pressure you're going you put on the razor, the harder you need to pull the strop taut. How much pressure? Enough to feel a slight resistance. It doesn't take a lot. As long as you keep most of the pressure focused on the spine and let the edge follow, so that the strop bends mainly under the spine, you don't need to worry about deflection. I once made a drawing that shows this in detail:
I use many different shave angles, depending on the direction of the pass and the part of my face.
Here's another drawing I made to illustrate the principle:
The answer remains the same as in the other posts you posed the question
Kind regards,
Bart.
This is some really good information
It's nearly impossible to assess, without seeing the razor at magnification.
What kind of CrO strop do you use? Balsa, a leather paddle, a leather hanging strop, linen or felt, a loom strop?
All these substrates have a different effect and speed.
On Balsa, which is acts very fast with CrO on top, it's perfectly possible to strop the edge till it crumbles. On more flexible, loose strops loaded with CrO, a convex shape slowly develops into a rounder and rounder edge, till the point where that introduces serious pull during the shave.
Right after a touch-up on CrO, stropping on clean leather makes not that much immediate difference. I don't think you must blame the stropping session on leather, unless your stropping skills are worse enough to smother the edge instead of reviving it. (somehow I doubt that's the problem here).
It is typical during the learning curve of a new straight shaver that the edge deteriorates much quicker than average. Weird shaving angles, small stropping mishaps, more attempts than necessary to improve the edge while it's actually the shaving skills that need improvement, less than perfect care of the razor post-shave, etc. These things happen with new shavers, and they don't really help the condition of the razor. In short: it might be wise to have the razor looked after at this point. Do you have some one in the vicinity who can do that for you?
Best regards,
Bart.
Thanks, Manco.This is some really good information
I've recently made an instructional video to illustrate the traditional - and in my humble opinion: best- style to strop a razor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyV6J4X0-2g
Thought I'd share it here as well.
Kind regards,
Bart.
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- #32
Hi Bart, thanks again for your response.
I looked at the edge with a 20x Belomo loupe. Its difficult to keep focus with the louple, but to my untrained eye, I see the bevel being quite smooth and shiny, however, the very edge of the bevel looks like it may have the "microdamage" you have mentioned before. Strangely, I see this from one side, not the other.
I use the back side of the Filly strop, which came pasted with a layer of green CroX.
The razor has been through about 16-18 shaves, and has touched Crox twice - once after the 7th shave, and once after the 17th shave (roughly), both times for 10 laps. The first time I used Crox, the edge was fantastic after that. However, it seems to have deteriorated slowly in the 10 or so shaves since. The second attempt at Crox did not work, it actually made things worse. Again - the razor is still cutting hair, I've got 2 almost DFS shaves out of it, but its not comfortable, and I'm getting weepers now.
This makes sense. The other thing I can think of is that I've started utilizing ATG passes on the neck in the last 6-8 shaves, and that's where I've seen the edge deterioriate. When I started shaving with a DE, I used to do WTG and XTG passes with Feather blades, and I could use the same blade anywhere from 4-6 shaves. Once I started incorporating ATG passes, I could not use the same blade for more than 2 shaves, presumably because the edge deteriorates much quicker on ATG passes due to my coarse hair. Is it possible its a similar issue at play here?
When I last looked, there were no honesters in the NYC vicinity area, but I'm not averse to sending the blade out. However, I do want to see if there is something I can do to bring the edge back. Will a few laps on a finishing stone like a barber hone, coticule or Chinese 12k do at this point? I'm guessing it couldn't hurt, though, right?
I looked at the edge with a 20x Belomo loupe. Its difficult to keep focus with the louple, but to my untrained eye, I see the bevel being quite smooth and shiny, however, the very edge of the bevel looks like it may have the "microdamage" you have mentioned before. Strangely, I see this from one side, not the other.
I use the back side of the Filly strop, which came pasted with a layer of green CroX.
The razor has been through about 16-18 shaves, and has touched Crox twice - once after the 7th shave, and once after the 17th shave (roughly), both times for 10 laps. The first time I used Crox, the edge was fantastic after that. However, it seems to have deteriorated slowly in the 10 or so shaves since. The second attempt at Crox did not work, it actually made things worse. Again - the razor is still cutting hair, I've got 2 almost DFS shaves out of it, but its not comfortable, and I'm getting weepers now.
This makes sense. The other thing I can think of is that I've started utilizing ATG passes on the neck in the last 6-8 shaves, and that's where I've seen the edge deterioriate. When I started shaving with a DE, I used to do WTG and XTG passes with Feather blades, and I could use the same blade anywhere from 4-6 shaves. Once I started incorporating ATG passes, I could not use the same blade for more than 2 shaves, presumably because the edge deteriorates much quicker on ATG passes due to my coarse hair. Is it possible its a similar issue at play here?
When I last looked, there were no honesters in the NYC vicinity area, but I'm not averse to sending the blade out. However, I do want to see if there is something I can do to bring the edge back. Will a few laps on a finishing stone like a barber hone, coticule or Chinese 12k do at this point? I'm guessing it couldn't hurt, though, right?
The CrO has started to form a very small burr at the very edge. It cuts well, but at the cost of discomfort and irritation, because the scraping effect on the skin. The bur folds to your last stropping stroke. If you stop the stropping on the other side next time, you'll probably see the damage appearing at the the opposite side.
Unfortunately, a hanging strop is highly effective for pasted stropping in experienced hands, but also highly critical for less than perfect practice.
Next time you use it, try putting it on solid surface. Pasted stropping can best be done on a very taut strop. That's why you'll often see pastes applied to paddle or loom strops.
Yes, weepers are typical for a harsh and/or toothy edges.
Sorry. I don't know. It's the first time I've heard this. I would think that a hair is coarse, regardless the angle of approach. But maybe the ATG action puts more stress on the edge. I really don't know, but you got this far, and you may expect that the longevity of your edge will improve drastically in the nearby future, together with all the skills you are learning.
Fact is that the hanging CrO strop without any doubt has introduced some rounding on the tip of the edge. How much, is impossible to tell, but before a hone can touch the very edge, the belly needs to be honed out.
Care for an illustration?
So the razor will need a bit of bevel correction at the very least. A Coticule is capable, I'm sure. The Chinese12K and the barber hone probably need company of some other hone, because these are both mere finishers.
If you want I can send you a cheap, but decent shaveready razor. All I ask is that you return it to Rayman (he's in the US, so it will be cheaper to send it to him, than to me in Belgium), at some future point. You may shave with it and touch it up as often as you can get away with. In the mean time you have some time to learn how to hone your razor, or to send it out for sharpening.
Best regards,
Bart.
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- #34
Ok, I'll keep this in mind.
Ok. But if the cause of the discomfort is the burr at the edge, can I backhone and try to remove it?
That's the best part! Your detailed responses have been invaluable!
When I decided to get into straights, I thought I would send the razor out for honing to somebody qualified, when needed, but I also thought I would be able to maintain the razor longer than a couple dozen shaves. There is also an appeal to honing/maintaining one's own razor, not to mention it will become mandatory later on, so am wondering whether I want to take up the learning curve now. Leaning towards a coticule/bbw combo, but I understand there are many other options available. Time to start hanging out in the honing forum now
This is a very generous offer! Will send you PM. Thanks.
I find "backhoning" a very unreliable method for removing the remaining parts of a failed edge.
There is one thing you can try, but I don't guarantee that it will restore the edge. Find a wooden stick with exposed and grain. (like a match, but preferably something thicker). Put the razor on top of the grain, edge down, and slowly, without any exerted pressure, drag it once over the end grain of the wood. At Dovo, they use a piece of wet cow horn for this, but I figure that won't be available to you.
This should remove any remnants of the bur.
Now you need to rely on the pasted strop to get the edge up to speed again. I know it sounds contradictory to bring the edge to the same tool that caused the bur in the first place, but you don't have much choice. At Dovo, they use their 2micron red paste at this point. But CrO will work too.
Put the strop on a hard flat surface, so that it can't bend. I hope there's not a thick fuzzy layer of CrO on the strop, because that won't do much good. A thin slightly translucent coat is what you need.
Take some clean (freshly washed) thick healthy hairs.
Strop 10 round trips on the CrO. Try to pop a hair at about 1" of the holding point. Try this at different parts of the edge. When it fails, repeat 10 laps. Try again. You can repeat this procedure 10 times, but do stop as soon as the edge passes the hanging hair test. If it doesn't work within 100 laps, the bevel is probably too rounded for the very edge to respond. At that point, you can try to use the strop hanging style, as a very last resort. If also that doesn't work, sue me.
It's a fair shot.
Best regards,
Bart.
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- #36
I've got a Gold Dollar on the way from KenRup. I thought of sending my TI out for honing, but haven't yet. In the meantime, I've been using the shavette, and continuing to improve on the technique - the shavette being so sharp, just reinforces the "no pressure" mantra.
Then, on Saturday evening, I opened up a bottle of wine to share with the wife, and it occurred to me - I could use the cork to remove the burr, as Bart described above. I've read about people corking their DE blades, and I figured, in the worst case, if it doesn't work, I"ll send the razor out. As well, Bart already gave me license to sue him
So.. I ran the razor very slowly over the top of the cork, with only enough pressure to sink the bevel into the cork. Did this a couple of times, then stropped on the CrOx side of the Filly for 10 laps *very gently with no pressure*, then followed with leather side on the Filly for 50 laps, and checked with the 20x loupe - no burrs, edge was clean.
Next - I did a couple of tests, which have not been reliable for me before. First, the TPT - I ran the thumb very gently over a few areas of the edge. Not sure what I'm supposed to feel - edge felt smooth, I thought if I applied any more pressure, it would slice effortlessly through. Next, the HHT - pulled a hair from the hairbrush, laid the hair gently on the edge, and tried to pull it - it got cut, but didn't sever completely, kept hanging. Then, I took the hair, and hit it against the edge from about an inch away - it popped right off. I did this on 3-4 places along the edge, with the same result, so I figured I had a good edge. The razor even shaved a few arm hair.
Today in the morning, stropped for another 30 laps, then went to work on my 3-day old stubble. The razor went through it with no trouble, and I got the closest WTG shave I've had so far. Followed it up with an XTG pass, and ended up with a very presentable DFS. Trouble area is the chin, as well as the areas above and below lips, for XTG. Also, I can feel some ATG stubble on the area just below the jawline, I'm not comfortable going ATG while following the contours of the jawline yet. All in all, a much better result than I expected, and I'm happy I could use the razor without too much discomfort. ASB revealed some minor irritation, so still not irritation free though.
I think I'll keep touching this razor up with Crox as needed, and see how far I can take it.
Then, on Saturday evening, I opened up a bottle of wine to share with the wife, and it occurred to me - I could use the cork to remove the burr, as Bart described above. I've read about people corking their DE blades, and I figured, in the worst case, if it doesn't work, I"ll send the razor out. As well, Bart already gave me license to sue him
So.. I ran the razor very slowly over the top of the cork, with only enough pressure to sink the bevel into the cork. Did this a couple of times, then stropped on the CrOx side of the Filly for 10 laps *very gently with no pressure*, then followed with leather side on the Filly for 50 laps, and checked with the 20x loupe - no burrs, edge was clean.
Next - I did a couple of tests, which have not been reliable for me before. First, the TPT - I ran the thumb very gently over a few areas of the edge. Not sure what I'm supposed to feel - edge felt smooth, I thought if I applied any more pressure, it would slice effortlessly through. Next, the HHT - pulled a hair from the hairbrush, laid the hair gently on the edge, and tried to pull it - it got cut, but didn't sever completely, kept hanging. Then, I took the hair, and hit it against the edge from about an inch away - it popped right off. I did this on 3-4 places along the edge, with the same result, so I figured I had a good edge. The razor even shaved a few arm hair.
Today in the morning, stropped for another 30 laps, then went to work on my 3-day old stubble. The razor went through it with no trouble, and I got the closest WTG shave I've had so far. Followed it up with an XTG pass, and ended up with a very presentable DFS. Trouble area is the chin, as well as the areas above and below lips, for XTG. Also, I can feel some ATG stubble on the area just below the jawline, I'm not comfortable going ATG while following the contours of the jawline yet. All in all, a much better result than I expected, and I'm happy I could use the razor without too much discomfort. ASB revealed some minor irritation, so still not irritation free though.
I think I'll keep touching this razor up with Crox as needed, and see how far I can take it.
