Honing on an X...

**LaughingAtFate** · 01-16-2010, 03:53 AM

Okay, So I think I've sorta gotten the hang of the honing, I only have one or a dozen small questions

Which is "best" for a razor, Honing the razor from the heel to the toe only, or going both from Heel to toe, and Toe to heel? is there any benefit to only having the single stroke? Does the Angle of the scratch pattern make a substantive difference? is it possible to sharpen a razor using nothing but chicken soup and a straw??

Sorry if this is a bunch of odd questions that have possibly been answered before, but I was thinking that my honing efforts might improve if I ask, or at least learn something and get the questions outta my head

**English** · 01-16-2010, 04:18 AM

Heel to toe is the traditional figure of 8 honing pattern.

This will give you striations running at about 45 degrees to the vertical on both sides of the edge. If you imagine at the end of the striations, there are little teeth, the same as you find on a saw, the teeth are pointing in a 45 degree angle towards the heel.

When you shave, the logic follows that you should use a scything motion because in this way, the little teeth catch the hairs in the same way a saw catches into wood.

Anyway, that is definately the way to go if you have a hone that is not as wide as the blade.

However if you have a nice wide hone, you don't have to use the figure of 8 honing pattern and you can just go back and forth and get a 90 degree striation or if you hold the blade at a 45 degree angle you get a 45 degree striation.

To be honest, I have tried both ways, and I honestly can not tell the difference.

What I think is important however is that the striations on each side of the V, edge should match.

Hope that helps.

**Ray-man** · 01-16-2010, 07:44 AM

+1 on English

I have also noticed the following. Using synthetics up to say 16k produces the striations English is talking about, but there are other finishes from higher and different stones.

If you finish your edge with a Shapton 30k, you end up with a polished edge that even under a 60x scope looks like a mirror. It also doesn't seem to improve the smoothness of the shave either.

The finish from a Coticule, produces an edge that looks like it has been sand blasted. Strangely enough, this finish feels buttery smooth to a lot of people.

Using Chromium Oxide to maintain your razor between honings also seems to mute the striations, if you have them, and gives a somewhat coticule look to the bevel.

Wheather or not you use a 'X' pattern or a straight stroke has not seemed to make much of a difference in my experience. I think it boils down to two things. what does it take to get the job done and what are you comfortable with.

Find what works for you and stick with it.

Good luck,

Ray

**Bart** · 01-16-2010, 08:44 AM

I'm with both feet in the X-stroke (or figure 8, which is the same) camp.
But I'm not buying any of that striations theory. I've never seen any high magnification pictures (Both Scanning Electron Microscopy or just plain old Light Microscopy) that revealed any serrations or striations affecting the shape of the very edge. At least not on a razor that was known to shave well. Professor Verhoeven's well known study being probably the best source for such pictures. (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads...nifeshexps.pdf).

The main reason for advocating the X-stroke, is because many razors have a slight warp in the blade. On top of that, not all hones are perfectly flat across the width either. Some synthetics even cup a bit when they have dried and are re-moistened. For both reasons, a blade may have good contact at some spots and none at others. If an X-stroke is used, those points of contact shift continuously, and the slight out-of-trueness in the blade and/or hone is canceled out.
Honing straight up and down in such cases will not give good results: either the blade doesn't take good keenness at some parts, or you can hone till the "high" parts of a warped blade touch the hone, but that affects the straightness of the edge. It may sound paradoxical, but straight honing strokes are the best recipe to develop a frowning curve in a "straight" razor's edge.

Best regards,
Bart.

**Chimensch** · 01-16-2010, 09:03 AM

Hey Bart!

Words cannot express my joy at seeing you here on B&B. You are a great resource and I always appreciate your input. I've visited your new site and I think its excellent Welcome, welcome, welcome!

**leighton** · 01-16-2010, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by Bart

I'm with both feet in the X-stroke (or figure 8, which is the same) camp.
But I'm not buying any of that striations theory. I've never seen any high magnification pictures (Both Scanning Electron Microscopy or just plain old Light Microscopy) that revealed any serrations or striations affecting the shape of the very edge. At least not on a razor that was known to shave well. Professor Verhoeven's well known study being probably the best source for such pictures. (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads...nifeshexps.pdf).

The main reason for advocating the X-stroke, is because many razors have a slight warp in the blade. On top of that, not all hones are perfectly flat across the width either. Some synthetics even cup a bit when they have dried and are re-moistened. For both reasons, a blade may have good contact at some spots and none at others. If an X-stroke is used, those points of contact shift continuously, and the slight out-of-trueness in the blade and/or hone is canceled out.
Honing straight up and down in such cases will not give good results: either the blade doesn't take good keenness at some parts, or you can hone till the "high" parts of a warped blade touch the hone, but that affects the straightness of the edge. It may sound paradoxical, but straight honing strokes are the best recipe to develop a frowning curve in a "straight" razor's edge.

Best regards,
Bart.

Damn Bart, beat me to it!

Glad to see you here!

I reiterate for emphasis. There are no teeth in your razor edge. The coticule looks like its blasted with sandpaper because in relative terms, it was. Compared to the Shapton 30k.

The edge feels smoother because that is what naturals do. I don't have an explanation why, but naturals produce smoother feeling edges. But so do duller razors using higher angles.

**English** · 01-16-2010, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by leighton

I reiterate for emphasis. There are no teeth in your razor edge.

The edge feels smoother because that is what naturals do.

Ofcourse there are no teeth, you have said it and the photographs prove it.

That is why if you magnify the edge coming off a coticule it is quite crude but feels smooth and yet the mirror finish off a 50,000 grit diamond paste looks super smooth and it feels course.

I repeat I believe the teeth are the razors edge and when they are gone, the blade feels dull or blunt. When they are out of alignment, a good strop on a fine leather realigns them and the blade feels smooth again. Simple, logical and easily understood. I also believe that pastes when put on a strop, ware the teeth away and the paste does this quickly, thereby destroying the edge.

I like natural hones as well. I have tried Coticules (3), Eshers (2), Japanese naturals (4) and Charnley Forset (1). I actually choose to use a Japanese Synthetic as my choice. Once I have honed and stropped on a fine leather, I find the lowly synthetic gives me the smoothest edge of all.

So there we go again, the synthetic gives me the edge on my razors that are the smoothest not any of the naturals I have used.

**kwigibocity** · 01-16-2010, 12:26 PM

Firmly in the aforementioned 'no teeth' camp here. Played with an electronic stereo microscope for hours with this and simply don't believe it exists at any magnification.

But what I've rarely seen mentioned is that if one's always drawing a ~2.8-3" long razor blade across a ~2" wide hone with the razor's toe initially off of the hone and finishing with the heel off of the hone, the heel will tend to get a disproportionately lower amount of time on the hone than the toe and there will be some portion of the blade (nearer the toe) which is upon the hone for the entire duration of each stroke.

I keep the 'x' pattern for the reasons Bart mentions, but alternating between conventional toe-off-first passes and heel-off-first passes solves both of these issues. Just be sure to keep the spine perfectly perpendicular to the stroke motion in both cases.

**mainaman** · 01-16-2010, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Ray-man

The finish from a Coticule, produces an edge that looks like it has been sand blasted. Strangely enough, this finish feels buttery smooth to a lot of people.

Ray

Just to add to what you said, and may be you have tried that too,Japanese nat finishers also leave sandblasted like look on the bevel. I need to check but I think the scratch pattern is still there just too fine to distinguish.
As far as teeth, I have not seen any pic even at high mag that shows evidence. At the very best, and if at all possible to achieve, the edge will have the shape defined by the size of the carbides in the steel.

**Ray-man** · 01-16-2010, 01:24 PM

I must admit that the sandblast effect I mentioned is only predominant in the slurry stage of honing on the coticule. During the finishing stage, this pattern is almost totally removed from the edge and the bevel, as can be seen in this photo provided by Bart.

I needed to clarify this so that my reference to sandblasting can not be misconstrued as the final finish effect.

Ray

**leighton** · 01-16-2010, 02:44 PM

Thanks for the clarification. It certainly sounded like you were saying the final finish of the coticule looked sand blasted in comparison. After all, we are talking about final edges. All 1k stones look really ugly.

**LaughingAtFate** · 01-16-2010, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by kwigibocity

But what I've rarely seen mentioned is that if one's always drawing a ~2.8-3" long razor blade across a ~2" wide hone with the razor's toe initially off of the hone and finishing with the heel off of the hone, the heel will tend to get a disproportionately lower amount of time on the hone than the toe and there will be some portion of the blade (nearer the toe) which is upon the hone for the entire duration of each stroke.

I keep the 'x' pattern for the reasons Bart mentions, but alternating between conventional toe-off-first passes and heel-off-first passes solves both of these issues. Just be sure to keep the spine perfectly perpendicular to the stroke motion in both cases.

That's the sort of thing that made me question the "heel to toe only" stroke, it seemed that the toe gets a LOT more time on the hone, I suppose it's an explanation for a lot of razors that I've seen with "severe hone wear" having a lot more on the toe, I admit that We're probably talking about Years and years of honing to get it to that sort of thing, but it's just one of those things I guess

So there isn't any difference between Toe First and heel First honing strokes? Or do you balance it out with a half dozen strokes Toe First, followed by half a dozen Heel first?

It seems I re-opened a can of worms with the "Teeth/No-teeth" camps, I suppose everyone has their opinions (I myself believe that it's not teeth, the razor's edge is just fine enough to get between the scales of the hair and just slices thenceforth)

Hmm, there's a thought, has someone ever tried to film a HHT under a microscope to find out what exactly is going on? or is that kinda a little 'out there'?

**Bart** · 01-17-2010, 03:28 AM

I'm not sure I understand that toe first/heel first reasoning.
I don't see how it can make a difference with regards to giving the heel more attention during an X-stroke. The matter is that the heel sits next to the shoulder, and because of that, you can't have the heel on any other spot than near the edge of the hone. The toe, on the other hand, is not bound by anything, and can sit everywhere on the hone: from one side, over the middle, to the other side. Because of that, I don't think any X-stroke will favor the heel. Yet I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. Fact is, we hold the razor at the tang, while honing singlehandedly. For this reason, there will always be a bit more pressure going on at the heel than at the toe. This might very well make up for any lack of attention.

But let's not be anal about this. I hardly ever hone a razor with X-strokes only. The X-stroke is my basic stroke, but if I notice (doing an occasional TPT) that part of the edge stays behind a bit, I have no problem doing some extra straight strokes that favor this part of the edge, whether that is heel or toe.
On razors that seem to be slowly developing a tapering edge, or a frown, I equally don't have a problem with spending some extra "counteracting" time on certain parts of the blade.

Best regards,
Bart.

**richmondesi** · 01-17-2010, 06:03 AM

I prefer the X stroke as well even on larger stones. One thing that I've incorporated in my honing is doing some straight strokes (usually in 4/4/1 sets of slight pressure on the heel, then 4 on the toe, then 1 without emphasis on any portion of the blade) that encourage a slight smile. I read about that technique in a barbers manual, and the logic presented seemed reasonable to me.

**leighton** · 01-17-2010, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by LaughingAtFate

That's the sort of thing that made me question the "heel to toe only" stroke, it seemed that the toe gets a LOT more time on the hone, I suppose it's an explanation for a lot of razors that I've seen with "severe hone wear" having a lot more on the toe, I admit that We're probably talking about Years and years of honing to get it to that sort of thing, but it's just one of those things I guess

So there isn't any difference between Toe First and heel First honing strokes? Or do you balance it out with a half dozen strokes Toe First, followed by half a dozen Heel first?

It seems I re-opened a can of worms with the "Teeth/No-teeth" camps, I suppose everyone has their opinions (I myself believe that it's not teeth, the razor's edge is just fine enough to get between the scales of the hair and just slices thenceforth)

Hmm, there's a thought, has someone ever tried to film a HHT under a microscope to find out what exactly is going on? or is that kinda a little 'out there'?

No one does a toe first stroke. Its just hard and gives no benefit. A toe first stroke would cause even more toe wear than heel first. Think about it.

The excessive wear on the toe is due to noobish honing technique. It may also be there by design, but I question that. In most cases, its probably poor honing.

You don't drag the toe all the way to the end of the stone.

Your overthinking it. Just do what the wikis and the link in my sig says.

**kwigibocity** · 01-17-2010, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by leighton

You don't drag the toe all the way to the end of the stone.

Nor the heel for that matter. And I'd agree with Bart's, too, in that the heel's position adjacent the shoulder precludes its presence upon any portion but the very edge of a hone.

However, with conventional 'x' strokes and a 2x6" hone there's some of the blade that does drag all the way across the hone-when you reach the end of the conventional 'x' it is still touching the hone. If that stroke's always repeated then it'd serve to reason that that portion of the blade will show the hone's affects more quickly than the remainder of the blade. A longer and narrower hone (or for that matter a hone as wide as the blade) would not present this problem.

Suffice it to say that you should vary your strokes to correct for tendencies of some portion of the blade being neglected or overemphasized upon the hone. I don't find a stroke that finishes (instead of begins) with the heel aligned with a hone edge beyond my capacities, and consider it a valuable 'correction' tool. Uniformity of the edge alignment and bevel topography in the end is all that matters, no matter how you get there.

**r0ckrat** · 01-22-2010, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by kwigibocity

Nor the heel for that matter. And I'd agree with Bart's, too, in that the heel's position adjacent the shoulder precludes its presence upon any portion but the very edge of a hone.

However, with conventional 'x' strokes and a 2x6" hone there's some of the blade that does drag all the way across the hone-when you reach the end of the conventional 'x' it is still touching the hone. If that stroke's always repeated then it'd serve to reason that that portion of the blade will show the hone's affects more quickly than the remainder of the blade. A longer and narrower hone (or for that matter a hone as wide as the blade) would not present this problem.

Suffice it to say that you should vary your strokes to correct for tendencies of some portion of the blade being neglected or overemphasized upon the hone. I don't find a stroke that finishes (instead of begins) with the heel aligned with a hone edge beyond my capacities, and consider it a valuable 'correction' tool. Uniformity of the edge alignment and bevel topography in the end is all that matters, no matter how you get there.

One of the reasons I like a blade with a smile. There's always just a narrow cross section of blade in contact with the hone...