Escher label but no escher cup?

SliceOfLife · Jan 3, 2010

This hone label appears to have the exact "escher" pitchline, even referring to the "trademark" of the hone... but I don't see any "escher cup".

Was the escher cup added or removed at some point or is it just a copycat label?

Isaac · Jan 3, 2010

Not all Eschers have the cup. I think the escher cup is on the E & Co. Hones. I have an escher that has the whole family scene picture without a cup. I dont know what to tell you with this one. Very well could be an escher, but a lot of the hones have similar user instructions.

SliceOfLife · Jan 3, 2010

Thanks, I've seen a lot of other ones with similar instructions... but this one is word for word identical to some escher's I've seen which has me thinking it might be one. In fact the TYPO'S even match.

Image by Gugi at SRP, of his Escher 5x1 box

Lord Fatboy · Sep 22, 2016

SliceOfLife said:
Thanks, I've seen a lot of other ones with similar instructions... but this one is word for word identical to some escher's I've seen which has me thinking it might be one. In fact the TYPO'S even match.

Image by Gugi at SRP, of his Escher 5x1 box

Did it turn out to be one, d'you think? I have one with the same green label, another black Thuringian, and a blue / black Mueller's "Poor Man's Thuri". All three together cost a fraction of a single "becupped" Escher stone (all bought at the same place, from the same chap, in the last week). The one with green label is considerably better quality, but still not sure about edge quality.
Spot the difference?

SliceOfLife · Sep 24, 2016

An Escher or a Thuringian?

An Escher, there's no way to know unless something fortunate happens like finding an add for an Escher with this label in it. But it seems very likely.

A Thuri was never a question. Celebrated razor hones and "Genuine water hone"s are thuringians.

rideon66 · Sep 24, 2016

I don't know for sure, but, it seems like escher,genuine thuringian water hone, droescher, and some others all came from the same hole in the ground. They were just marketed by different distributors of sorts. Many of the labels are exact or very similar just missing one trademark word or symbol. So to me they are technically escher, but don't have the trademark or name so technically aren't Escher even though they may be a part of the exact same rock just sold by someone else. I think stone with cup and without would have been cut and boxed all together in a pile then just labeled different on their way out the door by the same company which is why the labels are the same. It is much simpler to just take one thing out of the print press than make completely new labels for each.

SliceOfLife · Sep 24, 2016

Good point. I suppose it is kind of like that video where you see Oakleys or Ray Bans or whatever coming off the same assembly line and some getting stamped Ray Ban and having a $300 pricetag put on them, then others getting stamped Rey Bens and having a $1 pricetag put on them. Why wouldn't they label it definitely as an Escher unless they couldn't... and knockoff's do often emulate brand-name labels to exactly the point where they legally can't anymore.

Also a possibility is that maybe "Genuine Water Hone" was a product produced by a company in competition with Escher who was taken over by them... and then Escher just added the cup to their label and continued marketing "their" product.

Lord Fatboy · Sep 27, 2016

Escher were in Germany - like Droescher was in the USA - a distributor of Thuris (and maybe Bohemian black slate?) until about 1900 when they bought stakes in some mines and applied their high standard of Quality Control to the stuff they brought out of the ground. The various Thuris may have all come from the same holes in the ground and the same heaps, but it's the QC that sorts the good from the average.

Anyway, I bought the stone in the picture above and it's a high quality grey-green Thuri. It's small, so I may just use it for slurry.

SliceOfLife · Sep 27, 2016

Yeah. The question is how vital was the QC. I've got a handful of Thuri's in sizes I'm pretty sure Escher never sold (no labels) and several under labels that I have no reason to expect were related to Escher, and I don't notice a difference. Nor was I aware of anyone with a "Bad" Thuri until a single very recent exception (excepting all the guys with stones they only wish were Thuri's... we've all seen the Oil-encrusted "Thuri" with "Tigerstone" stamped on the back). It looks to me like Thuri's were a goldmine of high quality rock, that maybe dried up at some point, but which the flaws were rare. In fact David pulled my attention to some of the first flaw's I've seen in Thuri's just last week, and I've been going through my collection looking for anything similar. In fact, I don't know the details, but doesn't Peter wander around the mining area picking of scrap bits and turning them into hones? I've not heard any complaints about the quality of that rock, and he's certainly not the kind of operation one would expect from Escher back in the day... so it would seem the rock itself is pretty special.

rideon66 · Sep 27, 2016

I think the rock was special. I believe the ones Peter gets are left over end cuts and bouts from the original mined stones. I think it is from the barber's delight mine though mostly.

Lord Fatboy · Sep 27, 2016

SliceOfLife said:
Yeah. The question is how vital was the QC. I've got a handful of Thuri's in sizes I'm pretty sure Escher never sold (no labels) and several under labels that I have no reason to expect were related to Escher, and I don't notice a difference. Nor was I aware of anyone with a "Bad" Thuri until a single very recent exception (excepting all the guys with stones they only wish were Thuri's... we've all seen the Oil-encrusted "Thuri" with "Tigerstone" stamped on the back). It looks to me like Thuri's were a goldmine of high quality rock, that maybe dried up at some point, but which the flaws were rare. In fact David pulled my attention to some of the first flaw's I've seen in Thuri's just last week, and I've been going through my collection looking for anything similar. In fact, I don't know the details, but doesn't Peter wander around the mining area picking of scrap bits and turning them into hones? I've not heard any complaints about the quality of that rock, and he's certainly not the kind of operation one would expect from Escher back in the day... so it would seem the rock itself is pretty special.

Well said. I have three blue black Thuris with no label etc but they are all silky - one has a TINY iron or maybe quartz inclusion on the non-honing side, and I had never seen the more recent Thuris with serious inclusions until that ressurected wasserabziehstein post the other week. I have seen counter tops in Leicestershire (Home of the Charnwood) that could make 200 three inch by ten inch hones. I'll be there next year and I may just - carefully - walk around the old quarries there.

Slightly off topic - Black slate was mined on the East Coast of the USA - I wonder If any hones came out of that..?

SliceOfLife · Sep 28, 2016

Wait... they make counters out of Charnley material? Really? Those must look incredible.

rideon66 · Sep 28, 2016

SliceOfLife said:
Wait... they make counters out of Charnley material? Really? Those must look incredible.

Never would I have a dull knife ever. I would love just to see such a countertop. I think he is saying slate counter tops though if I read that right. They just happen to be in the same location as the Charnwood.

David · Sep 28, 2016

SliceOfLife said:
In fact David pulled my attention to some of the first flaw's I've seen in Thuri's just last week

I'm going on vacation next week, but when I get back I'm planning on starting a new thread about Thuringian inclusions. I've found two in my collection that have the "fools gold" type inclusions in them.

Lord Fatboy · Sep 29, 2016

SliceOfLife said:
Wait... they make counters out of Charnley material? Really? Those must look incredible.

I've seen a library countertop, in a small village library, made out of legit (antique) Charnwood stone that we would use for hones, and a smaller one in a old tea room of the same material. At some point that library will close down (welcome to Britain), and I'll do my best to be there, if I can relocate it in time (shouldn't be too hard).

I've seen slate roofs in Leicestershire made from the Charnley slate, which is different but has a greenish Charn like tinge. (see pic). My neighbour has just had their 17th century front garden ripped up (for shame) and it was full of paving that I'm pretty sure is Dalmore "blue" stone and a few bits of what look and feels like fine white Tam O' Shanter (tho' I cannot be sure of that)

FarmerTan · Sep 29, 2016

SliceOfLife said:
Wait... they make counters out of Charnley material? Really? Those must look incredible.

+1!!!

SliceOfLife · Sep 29, 2016

Lord Fatboy said:
I've seen a library countertop, in a small village library, made out of legit (antique) Charnwood stone that we would use for hones, and a smaller one in a old tea room of the same material. At some point that library will close down (welcome to Britain), and I'll do my best to be there, if I can relocate it in time (shouldn't be too hard).

I've seen slate roofs in Leicestershire made from the Charnley slate, which is different but has a greenish Charn like tinge. (see pic). My neighbour has just had their 17th century front garden ripped up (for shame) and it was full of paving that I'm pretty sure is Dalmore "blue" stone and a few bits of what look and feels like fine white Tam O' Shanter (tho' I cannot be sure of that) View attachment 691943

Why wait. Bribe a local politician to push through a bill saying that the Library needs updated countertops. (Welcome to America.)

Or maybe talk to the head of the library and suggest they could sell that counter for a small donation to the library as a fund raiser.

kcb5150 · Sep 29, 2016

Lord Fatboy said:
Slightly off topic - Black slate was mined on the East Coast of the USA - I wonder If any hones came out of that..?

Black mottled Vermont. No slurry needed, much better with a water soluble solution or oil. Gives off a really boosted edge like french finishers. Unfortunately, there's a lot of inconsistency in the stone so unless someone hand picks it for you it very well may not be viable

kcb5150 · Sep 29, 2016

There is still an industry but they are just cranking out material for construction.

Lord Fatboy · Sep 30, 2016

kcb5150 said:
View attachment 692059

Black mottled Vermont. No slurry needed, much better with a water soluble solution or oil. Gives off a really boosted edge like french finishers. Unfortunately, there's a lot of inconsistency in the stone so unless someone hand picks it for you it very well may not be viable

A case of convergence. About five minutes before I posted this someone on another forum explained that the "Vermont" stone was a quality hone (but this is better 'cos it's got pictures). I was in Vermont about 18 years ago, but I never thought to bring any rocks home with me and I wouldn't have known what to do with them if I had. "French finishers" - it does look a bit like La Lune

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Escher label but no escher cup?

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