Two Issues Related to Honing

**Joe Lerch** · 01-16-2007, 02:08 PM

I happened to be doing some research and ran into this http://users.ameritech.net/knives/Juranitch1977Feb.htm. Go to the end of the page where we have the microscope shots.

It has to do with knives, but there are two issues of interest to us.

First, A microscope shot at 3000x shows the difference between dry honing and honing with oil. I assume the same issue arises with water. The suggestion is that the swarf contains microchips of metal that will produce tiny gouges in the edge, which you won't get with dry honing. It looks like the gouges are no more than a few microns, which you won't see with your 100x microscope.

Second, there are two shots on the right that show the effects of steeling. Without steeling, you get the usual scratch lines and microserrations. With steeling, the metal is caused to "reflow" and the scratch lines and microserrations disappear. The bottom picture shows a perfectly smooth edge (no visible scratch lines) at 3000x.

Has anyone ever tried gentle steeling with a razor? What I would do is steel with the spine and edge on the steel. Just to put things in perspective, at 3000x, what looks like 3mm is actually 1 micron, the scratch line width of a 15K hone.

In any case, I think we have two interesting issues here, and I hope we can have lots of discussion, opinions etc.

**Scorpio** · 01-16-2007, 06:21 PM

Very interesting article. I noticed a statement that mentions double edging. I was curious if this process would work for straights. I dont know if the straight edge is too fine to support this type of finishing hone technique.

How is steeling accomplished?

Raf

**moviemaniac** · 01-17-2007, 02:56 AM

Honestly, I wouldn't steel my razor, I'm quite sure it would destroy the "cutting edge" and thus make it unusable for shaving.

**AFDavis11** · 01-17-2007, 10:26 AM

I think the guy has issues. His theory is very poorly supported. If you look close at the dry honed edge it has more chips in it than the oiled stone honing. Here is what I think happened. He honed a few knives (Ok, hundreds) and people found with dry honing that they were "better cutters". Better cutting knives, cut by being pulled through material. So what was really happening is exactly what you see in the photo, a semi serrated edge. Chips all through it. The chipping created a serrated edge. Remember this article is 30 years old. So with a dry hone more chipping on the edge, better pulling cuts.

His theory about swarf particles and chipping the edge, sounds like BS to me.

Now with razors we mostly push them perpendicularly to the whisker, so smoother honing is better. Water, lather, heck even oil is better. Look close at the picks and you'll see the oil honed knife is actually smoother, not chipped as he surmised. Looks to me like the 3kx photos were taken after the interview.

Now, on to steeling. I think he is right on the money here. Its clear from the photos that its smoothed out. I think, if you found the right steel, theoretically you could improve the edge of a razor. Unfortunately, I think this is pretty much what stropping does already. Almost the exact same concept. And it does it less drastically.

If your up for it I'd be willing to watch while you steel your razor and see if you like it.

I would think you would want to use a smooth steel though. But I see no reason why it wouldn't improve the edge. I too would be worried about screwing it up more in the process though.

**Scorpio** · 01-17-2007, 03:39 PM

Please forgive the dumb question but by steeling he means using a piece if smooth steel instead of a finishing stone? If this is the case the steel has to be super smooth.

Raf

**Joe Lerch** · 01-17-2007, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Very interesting article. I noticed a statement that mentions double edging. I was curious if this process would work for straights. I dont know if the straight edge is too fine to support this type of finishing hone technique.

How is steeling accomplished?

Raf

By "double edging", do you mean a compound bevel? I don't think you can do it on a razor without deteriorating sharpnes.

I know how to stell a knife, but I'm not sure about a razor. My gues is that you would do it very lightly and either have the edge and spine touching the stell at the same time or have the spine very slightly raised. I've ordered a burnisher with a Rockwell hardess of 64, and I'm going to do some experimenting.

On the dry honing, Juranitch is an expert who developed honing for the meat (butchering) industry. He claims that his customers could tell the difference in sharpness when an edge was dry honed and that it lasted longer.

**Joe Lerch** · 01-17-2007, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Please forgive the dumb question but by steeling he means using a piece if smooth steel instead of a finishing stone? If this is the case the steel has to be super smooth.

Raf

Absolutely! And as hard as possible. I ordered a mirror polished burnishing rod with a Rockwell hardness of 64 to do my experimenting.

**Joe Lerch** · 01-17-2007, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by moviemaniac

Honestly, I wouldn't steel my razor, I'm quite sure it would destroy the "cutting edge" and thus make it unusable for shaving.

It wouldn't cause irreparable harm, and it may just be a matter of how you do the steeling.

**bbqncigars** · 01-17-2007, 04:27 PM

A burnishing steel (similar to that used to set the edge on cabinet scrapers) was what I initially thought of when steeling was mentioned. The next thought was to a flat steel. Instead of a polished flat burnishing steel (may not be readily available), how about glass? Comments?

Wayne

**Joe Lerch** · 01-17-2007, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I think the guy has issues. His theory is very poorly supported. If you look close at the dry honed edge it has more chips in it than the oiled stone honing. Here is what I think happened. He honed a few knives (Ok, hundreds) and people found with dry honing that they were "better cutters". Better cutting knives, cut by being pulled through material. So what was really happening is exactly what you see in the photo, a semi serrated edge. Chips all through it. The chipping created a serrated edge. Remember this article is 30 years old. So with a dry hone more chipping on the edge, better pulling cuts.

His theory about swarf particles and chipping the edge, sounds like BS to me.

Now with razors we mostly push them perpendicularly to the whisker, so smoother honing is better. Water, lather, heck even oil is better. Look close at the picks and you'll see the oil honed knife is actually smoother, not chipped as he surmised. Looks to me like the 3kx photos were taken after the interview.

I'm not so sure he's wrong. The dry edge has the expected fin, but although the wet edge looks smoother in parts it has microchips which are larger than the teeth, and the chips would catch on whatever they're cutting.

He's been pushing this for a long time, and he's had lots of experience in the butcher industry. Their knives are supposed to be super smooth, not serrated. His customers actually found that they noticeably cut smoother and the edge lasted longer. Although they are slicing, the fact that it became smoother (not tearing) and easier means the edge was sharper. A sharper edge also works for us, even though we're mostly pushing.

Now, on to steeling. I think he is right on the money here. Its clear from the photos that its smoothed out. I think, if you found the right steel, theoretically you could improve the edge of a razor. Unfortunately, I think this is pretty much what stropping does already. Almost the exact same concept. And it does it less drastically.

If your up for it I'd be willing to watch while you steel your razor and see if you like it.

I would think you would want to use a smooth steel though. But I see no reason why it wouldn't improve the edge. I too would be worried about screwing it up more in the process though.

I ordered a mirror polished burnishing rod with a Rockwell rating of 64 for my experiments. I'm not going to try it on any good razors unless it works.

I have to disagree about the stropping. It's mostly an alignment process with very slight abrasion. A polished steel would have almost no friction. What got me to thinking is that if you look at the photos, it looks like the metal was distorted or flowed to fill in the scratches and microserrations. Stropping won't do that, and even a lot of stropping just wears the scratches. What would happen after a long time, I don't know.

That edge looks perfectly smooth at 3000x. With that magnification, a scratch that looks 1mm wide is actually 1/3 micron, smaller than what a .5 micron paste leaves. After steeling, we see absolutely no scratches or microserrations at the edge.

**Joe Lerch** · 01-17-2007, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by bbqncigars

A burnishing steel (similar to that used to set the edge on cabinet scrapers) was what I initially thought of when steeling was mentioned. The next thought was to a flat steel. Instead of a polished flat burnishing steel (may not be readily available), how about glass? Comments?

I think you need something round. The steel seems to have moved around metal microscopically. You get a lot of force to do that at the point of tangency of a cylindrical rod, but it would be a lot less with a flat surface.

According to a paper written by prof. Verhoven about sharpening, a hone moves metal microscopically. but in this case it moved metal away from the edge causing rounding or a slight burr.

I'm thinking you need something hard. Is glass harder than Rockwell 64 steel? Will the steel scratch it? There are some serrated knives that are advertized as cutting a glass bottle. Doesn't that mean the steel is harder?

**mparker762** · 01-17-2007, 05:00 PM

doesn't a strop do this too? it's a lot softer than glass.

OTOH, if hardness is a major criterion for burnishing I don't think your 64RC steel is gonna do the job - most straights are about that hard. Robert Williams had a bunch of razors tested in a variety of locations on the blade, and they mostly worked out from 57 (sheffields) to 64 (friodurs, some pumas, and some of the american razors). There's a post on SER where he's discussing his heat-treating process with Mike Blue where he talks about this.

**Tony Miller** · 01-17-2007, 05:24 PM

Glass would likely work. Have you ever seen those all glass razor blade sharpeners on eBay? They have a curved, for a lack of a better word, "half pipe" (go ask any skate board guy) that you rub your DE blade against, burnishing the edges just like a steel. They also have the one with 2 marbles that do the same thing.

You could use a rod but with the concentrated pressure it is VERY easy to crack the edge.

Tony

**BOGARTUS** · 01-18-2007, 03:14 AM

Once I experimented with a leather glued and wrapped around a 3/4" wood dowel coated with .5 micron paste.

It worked well in a stiff blade but, on a thin blade you had to be carefull.

**BOGARTUS** · 01-18-2007, 03:17 AM

forgot,

I used a stropping,not steeling motion.

Now for some coffee!

**Joe Lerch** · 01-18-2007, 07:21 AM

Originally Posted by mparker762

doesn't a strop do this too? it's a lot softer than glass.

OTOH, if hardness is a major criterion for burnishing I don't think your 64RC steel is gonna do the job - most straights are about that hard. Robert Williams had a bunch of razors tested in a variety of locations on the blade, and they mostly worked out from 57 (sheffields) to 64 (friodurs, some pumas, and some of the american razors). There's a post on SER where he's discussing his heat-treating process with Mike Blue where he talks about this.

I'm going to check it out. I trust his data because it comes from tests done by a professional lab.

But let me say that John Crowley, who knows more about razors than anyone I know of, says they're usually between 58 and 61. When he gets one at 61 or higher, he talks about it. Robert also told me that his best were 64, which he considered unbelievably hard to hone. Friordors (not Pumas) have been the toughest for me, but not nearly as difficult as Robert indicated.

**Joe Lerch** · 01-18-2007, 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Glass would likely work. Have you ever seen those all glass razor blade sharpeners on eBay? They have a curved, for a lack of a better word, "half pipe" (go ask any skate board guy) that you rub your DE blade against, burnishing the edges just like a steel. They also have the one with 2 marbles that do the same thing.

You could use a rod but with the concentrated pressure it is VERY easy to crack the edge.

Tony

Thanks Tony, I remember those glass things ("Lilli" something). They call them hones. I wondered how they could do anything abrasive. Isn't burnishing just realigning the microserrations, like a strop? Or is it what the steel seems to do? At 3000x you can see that the moved metal to cover the scratches, and it totally smoothed out the microserrations. No strop does that. In all the other microscope shots I've seen, I've never seen an edge that's totally smooth at 3000x.

I think I'll get one of those glass hones and try it, as well.

I've cracked a few edges in my time, once through over-zealous hand polishing. Now, whenever I work on an edge aggressively, I put the blade on a bar magnet so the edge is drawn against the magnet surface. It provides protection and support, and it dissipates a lot of heat. My blades do stick together.

**mparker762** · 01-18-2007, 07:38 AM

I've got one of Robert's razors, and they're hard to hone both because they are hard steel and because they tend to have pretty big bevels - he can't do full hollows yet (though I'm getting my order in as soon as he gets the equipment). I haven't had any razors hardness tested, but I've had a Friodur, a Mappin&Webb, a Waterville and a Clauss that were nearly as difficult to hone as the RW yet had much smaller bevels - all of these simply laughed at one or more of my hones. So while the really hard razors aren't common, I don't think they're terribly rare either, at least not if you're looking for them (which I am). Oh, and a Wacker, though that one's difficulties lay as much in its brittleness as its hardness...