new razor advice for newbie please (WTB straight)

[nichhel]

After about six months of DE shaving (I started here on BB!) I want to try straight razors. I got a cheap KeenCutter from Josh on SRP to start with. At first I found the edge wobbly (as in, not firm) and couldn't shave with it. It pulled, and seemed bendable, and basically scared the bejeesus out of me.

A week later (yesterday) I read Moses' thread and the comment by Joel therein ( Many thanks Joel!! ) on using a confident stroke, so I tried it again. Voila! Very hassle free shave of the jawline and neck, with just a frisson of mind-buggering fear. Now I'm sold! I especially like that it's somewhat less messy than a DE shave, once you get started (I rinsed the razor once per side).

I have a nice rehoned Solingen razor coming from Alex (LX_Emergency here) and I want to get one more rehoned razor (under 40$ since I need to get a strop too), with these characteristics:

1. preferably Sheffield.
2. preferably a wedge -- I don't really know if a wedge is stiffer than say a full hollow, but I would expect so. Also it might be easier to strop? I like the stiffness of straight razors, esp while shaving the neck.

What helpful advice would you have for a newbie to choose a good straight? I really don't know what I want in a razor other than the above two points. For now the razor needn't be a 'looker' -- just a solid shaver. I believe Genco's are great at this but dunno.

I really want to experience that feeling of just swiping the whiskers off that Lynn Abrams mentions. Any suggestions on what kind of razor should I be looking for? Is a sheffield very different? Is a wedge better? Which is easier to strop, sheffield or solingen? Stainless or carbon?

Hopefully once I get these questions sorted out I can begin to face my nascent SRAD!


Thanks for any responses! And many thanks for getting me started with quality creams (Scotto!), good blades, and colognes (decant club!).


Dan

[joel]

Dan,
I would concentrate less on the "type" of steel, and the grind, and more on the quality of the razor. You can take the BEST type/quality of steel, and the perfect grind suited for your needs, and have poor heat treating, grinding etc - and have just a highly mediocre result.

PERSONALLY, I am not overly impressed with wedge razors. Yeah, they are heavy, extremely rigid/robust, etc - but they can also be very tricky to hone, and in my opinion do not take as delicate of an edge. The whole popular trend right now is really big, heavy, robust large bladed razors (read: wedges) and while they can/will deliver a superb shave and tend to work well for very densely bearded gentlemen, there is a reason why pretty much all of the razors manufactured today are at LEAST 1/2 hollow, but more typically 1/4 or full hollow ground. Take for instance Dovo... they only offer one model in a wedge, and it is more of a "hair shaper" model, that only comes in small sizes from 2/8-4/8 with a french point, so being a wedge helps it get through hair, and the weight/heft is somewhat practical - but all other Dovo straights currently offered are 1/4 and below ground.... which are harder, and more costly to make. Thiers Issard offers NO wedge style razors, and to my knowledge, and according to their marketing material, has never offered a wedge razor, as they feel they cannot develop as fine an edge and are a much "lower" grade of razor they prefer not to associate their name to. obviously TI and Dovo aren't making a whole bunch of wedge-style razors for a reason..... they just aren't all that amazing. Also - notice NONE of the super high end razors are wedges? You won't see a wedge from Maestro, or a damscus TI or the like from TI.

Sure... if you are a wolley mammoth a medium sharp wedge will spank the pants off of a SAME SIZED full hollow, however if you have a much larger full hollow - IE a 6/8 wedge, versus a 8/8 full hollow, you'll get about the same affect, with the ability to develop a much finer edge, with less hassle.

To each their own, but it is my opinion Wedges can be good.... but they aren't all that great - and i've got probably 1/2 dozen of 'em (and some terribly nice/expensive ones at that) and even when they come from the most prestigious honemeisters, I can still develop a much superior edge on one of my 1/2, 1/4, or full hollow ground razors with ease.

Unfortunately within your price range, I don't really have a proper suggestion, as any razor in that range (in decent condition) is going to have to be an Ebay razor, so you'll have to throw in the cost of professional honing, and cross your fingers a bit on what you buy, as any "prestigiously" branded wedge bigger than 4/8 (like a W&B or Frederick Reynolds) is going to pull in more than $40.

Personally, if it were me, I'd be patient, save a little coin, a purchase a "Shaver" grade (not super fancy/full of frills flashy razor - but still a reat shaver) from Dovo or Thiers Issard for around $70-90. In that range you can get a 1/2 hollow TI (which is going to be a REALLY damn stiff razor, and will take a hell of an edge) or a Dovo 1/4 hollow like the Dovo Special (see the review in the review section) that will also be mighty stiff, and take a hell of an edge.... and most importantly they'll be easier to maintain, much more docile to use, and in my opinion (and in TI's & Dovo's) will deliver a much finer shave.

If you get a new TI or Dovo, pm me, lemme know and i'd be more than happy to hone it up for you gratis if you cover the shipping

Hope this helps.

[AFDavis11]

That Joel is pretty sharp huh?

Good questions. I don't think there is any difference stropping in any of the variances you describe. I've been under the impression that a true wedge is a little more difficult to hone than some full hollows and might suggest a 1/4 or 1/2 hollow first, but don't have any personal experience with them. I hear more people talk about honing them than shaving with them.

I guess someone could argue that a stainless razor should be harder to strop, but its not my experience. I strop very fast and I have a little trouble changing the pace when I move to a wider razor like a 6/8. For a few years I've wanted a TI 6/8 1/2 hollow Gnome razor (and they are cheap too), but I've never pulled the trigger.

You may just have to experiment a little but continue your research.

[LX_Emergency]

If you really want one I have one lying around that I'll send you for $10 plus the cost of shipping. But I have to warn you....I can't get it sharp enough myself. I've been working on it for over an hour on the hones before I put it on the strop and it still wasn't sharp enough. I just can't get the little bugger ( It's a smiling 5/8 sheffield full wedge) sharp enough. So i've come to dislike the wedges. Especially when my 6/8 Worldmaster sheffield gets see sharp it kinda scares me sometimes. And that without effort at all!

[mparker762]

If you're disturbed by the floppiness of your razor, you should know that not all full hollows are that floppy, yours sounds like an extreme case. And once you get to 3/4 hollow you're about as stiff as you're ever gonna get - the 1/2 and 1/4 hollows just add weight, and wedges both add weight and make it tough to hone.

Don't worry about where the steel came from, all the razor-making regions made both good and bad razors (except pakistan, which never seemed to figure "good" out). Genco's are great, but they made some floppy razors as well, my 5/8 Genco Di Roma was basically a sharp piece of foil, but my 6/8 Genco chromed steel is very stiff.

[Joe Chandler]

One thing to think about, too, is this: No matter what kind of razor you use, or how sharp it is, using a straight requires good technique to "wipe the whiskers away". Lynn's been doing it for a number of years.

[mparker762]

One thing to think about, too, is this: No matter what kind of razor you use, or how sharp it is, using a straight requires good technique to "wipe the whiskers away". Lynn's been doing it for a number of years.

Except with the feather, though with it you have to worry about it wiping the skin away too :-)

More seriously, the floppy razors really expose poor prep and technique. The heavier and stiffer razors only have an advantage if you're deficient in these areas. If you're just starting the heavier razors are both a blessing and a curse, because you can get decent shaves even with poor technique but because of this your technique doesn't really improve much. And the little thin razors give a tremendous amount of feedback that the wedges don't, once you're used to that kind of feedback then shaving with a wedge is almost like shaving blind.

[Steelforge]

One thing to think about, too, is this: No matter what kind of razor you use, or how sharp it is, using a straight requires good technique to "wipe the whiskers away". Lynn's been doing it for a number of years.

I totally agree, it takes a lot of practice to get to the point where it's like that. I've been shaving with a straight for 4 or 5 months now and I'm starting to get there, but still quite a ways to go yet.

The main thing to concentrate on is to find a razor made of a very good quality steel, and preferably without too much wear. Then get it honed by someone who really knows what they are doing. That's much more important than the size/grind of the blade.

Now I've learned to hone them properly, my two best shavers are Maestro Livi razors costing $400 and $700 respectively. However I also have a Dubl Duck Satinedge that I picked up on Ebay for $40 and had honed by Lynn, it shaves just as well as either of the Maestro's do.

Look for razors by Dubl Duck, Wustenholm, Boker, Wade & Butcher, Bengall, Bismarck (pre-Dovo), Joseph Elliot, Henckels, Thiers Issard, any of these in good condition have the potential to be great shavers. Of course there are many other brands too, these were just off the top of my head.

[LX_Emergency]

Dorko, Worldmaster, Weltmeister, Macero, Puma, Genco, Geneva, Abr..(something) & sons, Aevos, Kuckuu duo etc etc etc There really are more good brands then one can name. So looking for a brand might not be needed. I'd look for an older blade (at least 50 years old) that's still in good shape. That way you'll have around 80-90% chance that it's at least decent. And the unknown brands are at least a little bit cheaper.

[netsurfr]

Dan,
I would concentrate less on the "type" of steel, and the grind, and more on the quality of the razor. You can take the BEST type/quality of steel, and the perfect grind suited for your needs, and have poor heat treating, grinding etc - and have just a highly mediocre result.

PERSONALLY, I am not overly impressed with wedge razors. Yeah, they are heavy, extremely rigid/robust, etc - but they can also be very tricky to hone, and in my opinion do not take as delicate of an edge. The whole popular trend right now is really big, heavy, robust large bladed razors (read: wedges) and while they can/will deliver a superb shave and tend to work well for very densely bearded gentlemen, there is a reason why pretty much all of the razors manufactured today are at LEAST 1/2 hollow, but more typically 1/4 or full hollow ground. Take for instance Dovo... they only offer one model in a wedge, and it is more of a "hair shaper" model, that only comes in small sizes from 2/8-4/8 with a french point, so being a wedge helps it get through hair, and the weight/heft is somewhat practical - but all other Dovo straights currently offered are 1/4 and below ground.... which are harder, and more costly to make. Thiers Issard offers NO wedge style razors, and to my knowledge, and according to their marketing material, has never offered a wedge razor, as they feel they cannot develop as fine an edge and are a much "lower" grade of razor they prefer not to associate their name to. obviously TI and Dovo aren't making a whole bunch of wedge-style razors for a reason..... they just aren't all that amazing. Also - notice NONE of the super high end razors are wedges? You won't see a wedge from Maestro, or a damscus TI or the like from TI.

Sure... if you are a wolley mammoth a medium sharp wedge will spank the pants off of a SAME SIZED full hollow, however if you have a much larger full hollow - IE a 6/8 wedge, versus a 8/8 full hollow, you'll get about the same affect, with the ability to develop a much finer edge, with less hassle.

To each their own, but it is my opinion Wedges can be good.... but they aren't all that great - and i've got probably 1/2 dozen of 'em (and some terribly nice/expensive ones at that) and even when they come from the most prestigious honemeisters, I can still develop a much superior edge on one of my 1/2, 1/4, or full hollow ground razors with ease.

Unfortunately within your price range, I don't really have a proper suggestion, as any razor in that range (in decent condition) is going to have to be an Ebay razor, so you'll have to throw in the cost of professional honing, and cross your fingers a bit on what you buy, as any "prestigiously" branded wedge bigger than 4/8 (like a W&B or Frederick Reynolds) is going to pull in more than $40.

Personally, if it were me, I'd be patient, save a little coin, a purchase a "Shaver" grade (not super fancy/full of frills flashy razor - but still a reat shaver) from Dovo or Thiers Issard for around $70-90. In that range you can get a 1/2 hollow TI (which is going to be a REALLY damn stiff razor, and will take a hell of an edge) or a Dovo 1/4 hollow like the Dovo Special (see the review in the review section) that will also be mighty stiff, and take a hell of an edge.... and most importantly they'll be easier to maintain, much more docile to use, and in my opinion (and in TI's & Dovo's) will deliver a much finer shave.

If you get a new TI or Dovo, pm me, lemme know and i'd be more than happy to hone it up for you gratis if you cover the shipping

Hope this helps.

Joel -
Just wanted to express my appreciation for the quality and depth of your post. I am also a relative newbie and found the information most enlightening.
Thanks again,
Steve

[ScottS]

Take a look at the shop section of thewellshavedgentleman.com, where you can get a pre-honed (which is quite important) set with a strop for not much beyond your price range. I wish they would offer a set without soap/mug/brush, but I can't imagine that stuff adding too much to the cost.

Also, make your needs known at straightrazorplace.com, and you might get some interesting deals on some pre-restored ebay blades in your price range. My recommendation would be to avoid ebay directly until you know what you're looking for.

[nichhel]

Joel,

I am not a woolly mammoth!

Dan,
I would concentrate less on the "type" of steel, and the grind, and more on the quality of the razor. You can take the BEST type/quality of steel, and the perfect grind suited for your needs, and have poor heat treating, grinding etc - and have just a highly mediocre result.

PERSONALLY, I am not overly impressed with wedge razors. Yeah, they are heavy, extremely rigid/robust, etc - but they can also be very tricky to hone, and in my opinion do not take as delicate of an edge. The whole popular trend right now is really big, heavy, robust large bladed razors (read: wedges) and while they can/will deliver a superb shave and tend to work well for very densely bearded gentlemen, there is a reason why pretty much all of the razors manufactured today are at LEAST 1/2 hollow, but more typically 1/4 or full hollow ground. Take for instance Dovo... they only offer one model in a wedge, and it is more of a "hair shaper" model, that only comes in small sizes from 2/8-4/8 with a french point, so being a wedge helps it get through hair, and the weight/heft is somewhat practical - but all other Dovo straights currently offered are 1/4 and below ground.... which are harder, and more costly to make. Thiers Issard offers NO wedge style razors, and to my knowledge, and according to their marketing material, has never offered a wedge razor, as they feel they cannot develop as fine an edge and are a much "lower" grade of razor they prefer not to associate their name to. obviously TI and Dovo aren't making a whole bunch of wedge-style razors for a reason..... they just aren't all that amazing. Also - notice NONE of the super high end razors are wedges? You won't see a wedge from Maestro, or a damscus TI or the like from TI.

Sure... if you are a wolley mammoth a medium sharp wedge will spank the pants off of a SAME SIZED full hollow, however if you have a much larger full hollow - IE a 6/8 wedge, versus a 8/8 full hollow, you'll get about the same affect, with the ability to develop a much finer edge, with less hassle.

Thanks for your perceptive advice. I didn't know wedges were the current rage, but someone on SRP had started a thread on progression of razors from newbie to experienced, and I remember wedges being touted as a newbie razor. I shall defer to your judgement though, and not obsess about these any more.

Personally, if it were me, I'd be patient, save a little coin, a purchase a "Shaver" grade (not super fancy/full of frills flashy razor - but still a reat shaver) from Dovo or Thiers Issard for around $70-90. In that range you can get a 1/2 hollow TI (which is going to be a REALLY damn stiff razor, and will take a hell of an edge) or a Dovo 1/4 hollow like the Dovo Special (see the review in the review section) that will also be mighty stiff, and take a hell of an edge.... and most importantly they'll be easier to maintain, much more docile to use, and in my opinion (and in TI's & Dovo's) will deliver a much finer shave.

If you get a new TI or Dovo, pm me, lemme know and i'd be more than happy to hone it up for you gratis if you cover the shipping

Hope this helps.

Indeed it helps. Your advice to ignore the type of steel and concentrate on quality is well-taken. I will save some coin and pick up a Tony Miller set, which means a Dovo. Though he doesn't have a great selection, the tortoiseshell razor or the ebony razor look nice (is the ebony a natural wood?).

But for the TI 1/2 hollow I see in my future I may take you up on your generous offer on honing!

Regards,
dan

[M Guthner]

About the only tip I can give you is to watch the spike points - they can bite real hard

[joel]

Joel,


Indeed it helps. Your advice to ignore the type of steel and concentrate on quality is well-taken. I will save some coin and pick up a Tony Miller set, which means a Dovo. Though he doesn't have a great selection, the tortoiseshell razor or the ebony razor look nice (is the ebony a natural wood?).

But for the TI 1/2 hollow I see in my future I may take you up on your generous offer on honing!

Regards,
dan

Dan,
I'd suggest getting the bare bones first - then if you like it - jump in and get all the equipment.

[Tony Miller]

The Ebony on the Dovo razors is a natural wood. Some offerings like "pakka wood", "fibron" and "red stamina" are wood based laminates or composites, not solid, natural woods.

I also think you won't find a huge variation is steel on most Dovos. Below $100 or so they will all be cosmetic variations of the same steel with identical grinds. Above $100 you may have stainless and full hollows on some offerings. I think with TI there may be a similar trend. Most of my sub $100 TIs seem similar except for grind, about $140 and above they all seem to have a harder steel.

As for there being no wedges today, well, I often wondered if in days gone by the wedge was simply the easiest, least expensive grind that could be done and was an entry level razor. Today, hollow grinds are easy so everything is hollow ground to some degree.

Tony

[nichhel]

Tony,

Thanks for the info on woods. On your website, the "grain" of the ebony is not visible (if such a thing even exists) despite zooming in, so it's hard to get a feel for what the razor will look like. I suspect it's a handsome looking razor, and I am quite decided that this is the razor I'm going to buy, along with a full set of strops (pasted paddle and hanging).

Meanwhile I've ordered a basic strop from your store so I can practice with the two razors I have now (Simmons and a European Solingen).