I'm sure there's another thread about this somewhere but here goes. Anyone else notice a big difference in the slickness/padding you get when lathering with glycerin based soap vs a tallow based one? I've tried two of the four soap samples from conk( they smell pretty good to me), but just don't seem to get quiet the protection I do with tallow based soaps. Is there a difference amongst glycerin soap makers? I really want to try out some Mama Bear soaps, the scents sound out of this world, but am afraid of having a disappointing experience with the soap itself.
Glycerin soaps vs Tallow?
- Thread starter Strikur
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Yes, glycerin-only and tallow are very different. You might get completely opposite opinions on which is more protective and which is slicker. I've had this discussion with people and it really strikes me odd that we disagree on something like this, but apparently... YMMV. There are also soaps that perform in between the two, kind of like a combination.
While there are soaps and creams all over the map, in general tallow soaps are protective and glycerin soaps are slick... Or vice verse if you're one of those, but the type is the biggest thing. Oil soaps tend to be closer to tallow but have more variety in these qualities and ingredients, and creams are a different thing altogether, but I'm a tallow fan and won't diss them here.
While there are soaps and creams all over the map, in general tallow soaps are protective and glycerin soaps are slick... Or vice verse if you're one of those, but the type is the biggest thing. Oil soaps tend to be closer to tallow but have more variety in these qualities and ingredients, and creams are a different thing altogether, but I'm a tallow fan and won't diss them here.
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You can see a difference in tallow soaps too. Williams just isn't the same as Tabac. So, there are more differences than just glycerin vs tallow. I have just started using some HoneybeeSoaps, which are small hard pucks like Conk, but they are very nice. I highly recommend the French shea butter soaps and suggest trying Provence Sante Green Tea. I think the lather of the tallow based Tabac is still denser, but the shea butter and extra glycerin is much nicer on the skin.
that's like saying gin vs. whiskey.
I mean are we talking Hendrix vs. Ten High
or
Gilbey's vs Pappy Van Winkle
apples and oranges.
FWIW, Tabac and MWF have been giving me redness, itching, irritation, and break outs.
TGQ and HBS are my current weapons of choice. (so, Hendrix and Bafforts, I guess. LOL)
I mean are we talking Hendrix vs. Ten High
or
Gilbey's vs Pappy Van Winkle
apples and oranges.
FWIW, Tabac and MWF have been giving me redness, itching, irritation, and break outs.
TGQ and HBS are my current weapons of choice. (so, Hendrix and Bafforts, I guess. LOL)
Some melt-and-pour soap makers add clay (Bentonite is a common variety) to give the soap some extra slip. HBS and TGQ are two soapers that I know add clay to the their mix, both of which I find perform better than "stock grade" melt-and-pour shave soap.
Go for it with the Mama Bears. I have yet to try a tallow based soap yet, but plan to. I have tried Proraso cream which is consistantly good and forgiving and I think is a good reference point. I have tried QED glycerin (sandlewood and rose/geranium) which smells over-the-top fantastic, but for me it does not come close to Mama's in lather quality. I have tried about four different Mama's with a couple more just delivered. The scents are very good (but I think QED's is a bit better/intense), but more importantly the lather is fantastic. It is slick as all get-out, but cushions almost as well......maybe as well as the Proraso cream. I have some cream samples from various manufacturers that will go in the sons xmas stocking ( with a few for myself!) so after the holiday I should have experienced a few of the "top-line" creams. Also have a couple of pucks of Prairie Creations tallow based coming as well.....can't wait to try them!
Tallow soaps, for the most part are like the holy grail of shave soaps. IMO they offer the best of everything including slip and especially protection and give very good moisturizing also. I have yet to try a vegetable oil based soap that does as well as a tallow and most are in overwhelming agreement that the tallow versions are vastly superior to the reformulated non tallow. I will take a glycerin over a vegetable oil any day. YMMV of course.
Yes, glycerin-only and tallow are very different. You might get completely opposite opinions on which is more protective and which is slicker. I've had this discussion with people and it really strikes me odd that we disagree on something like this, but apparently... YMMV. There are also soaps that perform in between the two, kind of like a combination.
While there are soaps and creams all over the map, in general tallow soaps are protective and glycerin soaps are slick... Or vice verse if you're one of those, but the type is the biggest thing. Oil soaps tend to be closer to tallow but have more variety in these qualities and ingredients, and creams are a different thing altogether, but I'm a tallow fan and won't diss them here.
There's no such thing as a glycerin-only soap. If it was glycerin-only, then it would be just that: glycerin. So-called glycerin soaps just contain a lot of glycerin compared to most other soaps, especially triple-milled soaps. Fact is that you can't have soap without reacting two components, those being hydroxide and some sort of fatty acid. Now that fatty acid could be some sort of oil or it could be a solid fat of some sort, but regardless of whether or not it is solid, you need it to make soap.
I'm in the minority here, I think....
Of all the various soaps I've tried, the inclusion of Tallow or not has no impact on how well it shaves, for me.
There is more to soap making that just whether a soap contains tallow or not. There are numerous other factors.
I have tried Erasmic (tallow) and found it to be very poor. I have tried Cade, Mama Bears and Palmolive. All are fantastic, tallow or not.
So, it is not the Holy Grail people seem to think. I have had better, more consistent shaves from MB's and Cade than I have with Tabac and MWF. But then, Palmolive is great also, and it contains tallow. So there you go...
John
Of all the various soaps I've tried, the inclusion of Tallow or not has no impact on how well it shaves, for me.
There is more to soap making that just whether a soap contains tallow or not. There are numerous other factors.
I have tried Erasmic (tallow) and found it to be very poor. I have tried Cade, Mama Bears and Palmolive. All are fantastic, tallow or not.
So, it is not the Holy Grail people seem to think. I have had better, more consistent shaves from MB's and Cade than I have with Tabac and MWF. But then, Palmolive is great also, and it contains tallow. So there you go...
John
Chicken v. Egg argument again
exactly!
Si!
I'm struggling to find a name for these things. Previously, someone called me out with the same argument for calling them glycerin soap saying that all soaps have glycerin for the reason you mention. Maybe I'll just call them kazoo soaps.
How about melt-and-pour?
+1. Anthony you know what you're talking about. Through all of the soaps I've tried, I haven't seen glycerin or veggie soaps compare to tallow soaps in any category. Neither in slickness, cushion, stability of lather, richness and thickness of lather, closeness of shaves, etc. The only non tallow soap I've tried so far that compares is Provence Sante Green Tea Shaving Soap. The only benefit of glycerin soaps that I've experience so far is the variety of scents available.
I wouldn't say "glycerine" vs. "tallow" but "melt & pour" vs. "triple milled". Generally the 3M soaps are from big firms (the production of 3M dictates this mostly) and the M&P are from small artisans (although Conk &c can make them too.) Some 3M soaps have gone downhill a lot when tallow is removed, and other 3M soaps have always been superb and always tallow-free. There are personal preferences, but generally those who try both eventually lean toward the 3M.
There are, of course, differences in the M&P soapers. The bentonite clay issue is one example. Quality and intensity of fragrance is another.
I think you will find that Mama Bear is similar to the Conk, compared to a 3M soap. That may or may not float your boat, depending on personal preferences.
See here for the usual rebuttal. Off the top of my head, and certainly no exhaustive: Provence Santé, Pré de Provence, most likely Institute Karité are all as good as any tallow-based soap. The idea that tallow moisturises better is bovine scatology, to put it mildly (the molecules that are the actual soap don't moisturise one iota); and as for reformulated versions, I haven't seen many people complain about the performance of Trumper soaps once they got the new formulation down pat. The problem is that it takes time and money for a manufacturer to work out the kinks in the vegetal recipe, and that these are unlikely to be expended.
Using vegetal soaps has one advantage over tallow soaps: there's far less reformulation angst as they more or less have been conceived 'reformulated' from the start. I have yet to see any thread on any wetshaver discussion board where a fan of vegetal oils laments the decline of palm oil and/or shea butter usage, and is now planning to make his own soap. With tallow, I've seen four or five more or less serious announcements over the last year.
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Cymric, my friend, you need to add content to the wiki page on Tallow. Please! I hadn't read through your page to see all the very good content. If you wouldn't mind leaving out some of the commentary, I think we'd all appreciate your knowledge added to the wiki.
Erasmic stick, alas, is palm oil based.
The old tallow one was much loved.
Cymric,
Your rebuttal is well written and well thought out. However, I would have to disagree with your assessment. The number of good tallow based soaps vs. poor tallow based soaps are overwhelming. However there are more poor veggie based soaps than there are good veggie based soaps. I agree with you that the French veggie based soaps are as good as some of the better tallow based soaps (I've only tried Provence Sante Green Tea and am very impressed). However, other than those French soaps, there really is not that many good ones that I have come across. Before trying PSGT, my opinion was that all veggie soaps were inferior to tallow soaps. But now based on my experiences, I believe that most veggie based soaps are inferior to a good tallow based soap with exception to those fine French soaps. Williams is known to be a sub par tallow based soap. But other than Williams, the number of poor tallow based soaps are really limited but the number of poor veggie based soaps are very numerous. Please give me your recommendation of some good veggie based soaps because I would like to try some.
Actually I just finished touching up the page on Tallow, but Cymric is definitely welcome to add to it.
