A defense of Charles Roberts

**Beethoven** · 12-30-2005, 09:58 PM

I've read Joel's posts about his experience with the Shavemaster brush, and though I can’t comment on the brush itself, I must say I certainly don’t recognize either Charles or Jean in Joel’s characterization; I certainly don’t recognize the Charles Roberts who wrote the moving, clearly heartfelt tribute to Ray DuPont posted at Method Shaving.

http://www.methodshaving.com/content/view/64/44/

I've purchased two Simpson's brushes from Charles and Jean and found both of them to be very pleasant, very helpful, and very generous with their time; I felt I was talking to a friend more than to someone trying to sell me something - they seemed more concerned with helping me achieve a happy shaving experience than in making a sale (ah, the signature of a truly professional salesperson).

And I do wonder how Joel’s brush would look photographed on a flat surface instead of on somewhat irregular tile; and I wonder just how eccentric the base is (the camera lens doesn’t seem to be perfectly centered on the axis of the base; Joel’s finger and thumb seem to be tilting the brush). Perhaps Joel could send the brush to another member for comment.

And Joel, though you are the moderator, I suggest you ask someone to review your messages before posting them. Had they been posted by another board member, I suspect you might have elided them for their immoderate, intemperate tone (moderator, moderate thyself!). If I knew neither you nor Charles or Jean, the tone of your writing would incline me to their side.

Happy New Year to all!
Michael Bradley

P.S. Though I’ve followed the B & B board for some while, this is among my first posts. I’d like to say thanks to all who do post their experiences with wet shaving - after 47 years or so of shaving (I’m 62), I’m tickled to find there’s so much still to learn. And it’s fun!

**joel** · 12-30-2005, 11:00 PM

Dude..... I posted that upon the request of the moderators, and several private parties.

I truly never understand these "defense" posts.... "Because it did not happen to me, surely this is out and out hogwash." You ever stop to think.... why would I try to get another shaving brush - if there was nothing wrong with this one?, I love the one I got to try for FREE so much I up and bought one... why in the heck would I "fake" there being something wrong with it? What good would it do, to send back a perfect brush back (and spend money on shipping) only to get another one back? What motive would there be - to have a YEAR LONG stance of enjoying CAR's products, then all of a sudden invent a problem with a brush - bring it to his attention polietly, him offer a solution, me not be to thrilled with it.... drop the issue - but then several days later have them contact me again to try to get to the bottom of the problem, only to then still remain silent on the issue, until I am called a liar and verbally attacked? - wait, but then still not saying anything, until prompted to do so by others? He VERY easily could have taken the brush back, swapped it, etc and bypassed the entire problem?

That is awfully far fetched my friend, and I am mighty insulted that you would suggest I RANDOMLY decided on a whim to FABRICATE pictures, and correspondences with Charles Roberts and Co. for no reason. As far as I am concerned, and as closely as I can read it - you are politely calling me a liar. Well, I am really sick to death of people taking pot shots and hiding behind them by touting themselves as being a "gentleman." Good god man - have yo ulogically peiced together what you are implying? Can you truly see ANY logic in it? Remember.... even gentlemen have duels.

Man up fellla and stick some powder behind your accusations - why don't you pay me the $250 - buy the defective brush and ladie da prove me wrong? Oh.... maybe like everyone else - you don't want a POS, shedding, funky handled brush. It is easy to play keyboard commando and "defend" the likes of Charles.... well cheif - MAN UP, I am callin' you out. What's the risk since Charles offers such tremendous service to you - I am sure he'll take it back

Listen - you wanna drop your jaw my friend - YOU contact Charles Roberts - and get him to send me an email giving express permission (so that it is documented) to post ALL of our email exchanges - and I will gladly do so. I have NOTHING to hide.... he on the other hand would be rather embarassed, and you would be quite shocked.

Simply put - Jean was incredibly polite, and seems like quite a lady... Charles was quite the opposite.

**joel** · 12-30-2005, 11:20 PM

Oh - one more thing I'd like to point out that chapped my hind end.

You randomly start your muckraking post with a link to something Charles wrote about a dying man... something Charles sent me and asked me to post on the site. I find it MIGHTY convienient you all of a sudden appear and link the VERY article Charles wanted exposure on this very site from.... not to mention you praising Charles with no logical reasoning, and attacking me.

Getting back to my chapped posterior..... what in the blazes does that little tidbit Charles wrote have ANYTHING to do with my situation, and me being disingenuous? If I showed you a short story I wrote in the 6th grade, would that have any more/less relevance? If I showed you hundreds of pages of garbled nonsense describing what I cut down and displayed in a few pages - would you not consider the originator of the garbled mess - somewhat "eccentric" and somewhat of a madman?

Sorry fellas... this just seems mighty fishy to me. I think this is a rue - and I want to nip this square in the bud before it goes ANY further. None of this nonesense and bickering should be on this forum..... Let's solve this, and move on.

**Scotto** · 12-31-2005, 06:58 AM

Michael,

It's time for some "straight talk" as we say in my business. Your post, while it may be heartfelt, smells pretty clearly like a troll. Why on earth would Joel lie about this stuff, especially when the history of how much he likes Charles' products is out there for anyone to see? It is nice that your experiences have been good ones, but that doesn't make Joel's experience untrue.

This board is for people to share experience; take each person's with a grain of salt if you wish, but unless you have some evidence, please refrain from insinuating someone is a liar or has ulterior motives. Joel's vehement response to you has to be seen in this light. I would suggest everyone take a collective deep breath from here on in and stick to the facts. If you have good experiences, continue to share them. If someone has poor ones, share those too. Everyone can make their own conclusions without getting too personal.

**roughrider** · 12-31-2005, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Scotto

Michael,

It's time for some "straight talk" as we say in my business. Your post, while it may be heartfelt, smells pretty clearly like a troll. Why on earth would Joel lie about this stuff, especially when the history of how much he likes Charles' products is out there for anyone to see? It is nice that your experiences have been good ones, but that doesn't make Joel's experience untrue.

This board is for people to share experience; take each person's with a grain of salt if you wish, but unless you have some evidence, please refrain from insinuating someone is a liar or has ulterior motives. Joel's vehement response to you has to be seen in this light. I would suggest everyone take a collective deep breath from here on in and stick to the facts. If you have good experiences, continue to share them. If someone has poor ones, share those too. Everyone can make their own conclusions without getting too personal.

Well said.

**EcoRick** · 12-31-2005, 11:36 AM

Personally, I think any product AND service is fair game for review. In this case, it's especially welcome. This is an expensive product and is untested. I think Joel's comments were tempered and he did make as many positive comments as he probably could. I have used CAR's products for awhile now and have mixed feelings, not as much about the results but more on the marketing and service side. Regarding RMWS, it's confusing when you buy a product for a specific method and find out that the method has change before you even use it. The RMWS product directions I've received vary from delivery to delivery. How can something be great one day and out of date the next? This also applies to the brush. How can a Simpson be the greatest brush in the universe one day (tested for decades) and then be inferior to a brand new, very expensive brush? I think any comment, good or bad, are helpful.

Also, I'd like to see the emails.

Rick

**joel** · 12-31-2005, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by EcoRick

Personally, I think any product AND service is fair game for review. In this case, it's especially welcome. This is an expensive product and is untested. I think Joel's comments were tempered and he did make as many positive comments as he probably could. I have used CAR's products for awhile now and have mixed feelings, not as much about the results but more on the marketing and service side. Regarding RMWS, it's confusing when you buy a product for a specific method and find out that the method has change before you even use it. The RMWS product directions I've received vary from delivery to delivery. How can something be great one day and out of date the next? This also applies to the brush. How can a Simpson be the greatest brush in the universe one day (tested for decades) and then be inferior to a brand new, very expensive brush? I think any comment, good or bad, are helpful.

Also, I'd like to see the emails.

Rick

Rick,
When I get home, I should scan and post some of the leaflets he sent me.... it gives THREE different instructions on how to use the same product throughout the guide! VERY confusing.... sometimes it tells you to use the paste 2 diff times, sometimes one, etc etc.

**Shermdog** · 12-31-2005, 04:20 PM

For what its worth.....

Joels posts and honesty in his reviews are the main reason I subscribe to this website and not SMF. I am a consumer and want to be steared clear of problematic and defective products that cost me money.

Joel....I read your posts and reviews of your problems and I take them seriously. Please keep them coming. Your reviews have kept me (a relative newbie wetshaver) from making unwise purchases. And, I have also found some terrific products too.

**guenron** · 12-31-2005, 10:57 PM

Greetings All,
I would suggest that this thread be renamed "In Defense of the Indefensible" and moved from Shaving Brushes, as it has nothing to do with them, to something more suitable like Trolls and Manure, more suited to the basic premises of the smarmy personal attack by Michael.
The product speaks for itself. No amount of prose can cover up the poor quality of this latest marketing monstrosity. It has real velocity into the nearest local landfill.
Oh, and by all means let us not look at the obvious, it must be a personal issue not hype that fails to deliver. Hah!

**Read** · 12-31-2005, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Beethoven

I've read Joel's posts about his experience with the Shavemaster brush, and though I can’t comment on the brush itself, I must say I certainly don’t recognize either Charles or Jean in Joel’s characterization;

Michael,
I agree with your assessment of Charles and Jean. There is always two sides to every story and I am sure we don't know it all but I have no doubt that Charles and/or Jean would welcome the opportunity to make things right with one of their customers; at least that has always been my experience. I would not be satisfied in the least if I had a brush as shown in the previous thread but I feel confident that it would be replaced at no charge or inconvenience to me. While Joel has the right to state his case and disparage a vendor, it is proper for those of us with different experiences to say so too. There is more than meets the eye here, past history and all, so one should consider both sides' reputations before assuming anything.

Read

**Nick** · 12-31-2005, 11:12 PM

Read,

Charles is more than welcome to state his case here.

As has been mentioned repeatedly, Joel has been an ardent, almost enthusiastic supporter of CAR for a good year.

Joel and I converse almost daily, and the past few weeks often the topic of conversation was Joel expressing frustration at how unbelievable it was that CAR simply wouldn't stand behind his product. So, you can feel confident that he'd replace your brush, but you don't have a faulty $250 brush sitting crookedly on your countertop, so in this case, I'd say experience trumps feeling.

I also agree, everyone should feel free to post their honest opinion of products, whether it be good, or bad.

Lastly, just about when this site first started, as you joined just a week or so after it opened, Joel sent me an email saying "A guy named Read just joined. He'll probably ask you to delete his account, as he did that 5 or 6 times on SMF." Low and behold, a month or so after that, you proceeded to ask me to delete your account, and when I told you I don't have the authority to do that, but I could ask the mods if you'd like me to, you tried PMing the admin account (which is just there for site maintenance). I suppose it's a good thing your account wasn't deleted after all?

Thanks for your post, and welcome aboard, we hope you'll continue to join in on the conversation.

-Nick

**Read** · 12-31-2005, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Nick

Read,

Charles is more than welcome to state his case here.

As has been mentioned repeatedly, Joel has been an ardent, almost enthusiastic supporter of CAR for a good year.

Joel and I converse almost daily, and the past few weeks often the topic of conversation was Joel expressing frustration at how unbelievable it was that CAR simply wouldn't stand behind his product. So, you can feel confident that he'd replace your brush, but you don't have a faulty $250 brush sitting crookedly on your countertop, so in this case, I'd say experience trumps feeling.

I also agree, everyone should feel free to post their honest opinion of products, whether it be good, or bad.

Lastly, just about when this site first started, as you joined just a week or so after it opened, Joel sent me an email saying "A guy named Read just joined. He'll probably ask you to delete his account, as he did that 5 or 6 times on SMF." Low and behold, a month or so after that, you proceeded to ask me to delete your account, and when I told you I don't have the authority to do that, but I could ask the mods if you'd like me to, you tried PMing the admin account (which is just there for site maintenance). I suppose it's a good thing your account wasn't deleted after all?

Thanks for your post, and welcome aboard, we hope you'll continue to join in on the conversation.

-Nick

Nick,
I don't believe Charles, or any vendor for that matter should feel like they have to state their case on any forum. Most businessmen probably do not have the time.

My account status has nothing to do with this thread. But since you felt the need to bring it up - I asked for my account to be closed after my posts were deleted. That was fine with me as I mentioned then the only reason I wanted it closed was because I didn't have the time to really be active.

Back to CAR. Yes, I do know Charles would do right by the brush (at least for me). If he won't for Joel, I know from experience that there must be more to the story. I will leave it at that.

Please get whatever permission you need and delete my account.

Thank You,
Read

**Joe Lerch** · 12-31-2005, 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by Beethoven

I've read Joel's posts about his experience with the Shavemaster brush, and though I can’t comment on the brush itself, I must say I certainly don’t recognize either Charles or Jean in Joel’s characterization!

Hey Ludwig, nobody asked you for a character reference for CAR. What's the point of your irrelevant tripe?

If a guy is writing a review of a product I expect a fair review, and I expect to be told about any unusual treatment from the vendor. Anything else would be dishonest, and I would be very unhappy if I wasn't told the kind of thing that happened here. Lots of people rely on these reviews in making purchases, and we're not talking about peanuts here. I've never seen Joel do a review here or on SMF that wasn't complete, fair and even handed. I'm very happy that Joel gave us the whole story this time and may saved a lot of us from making a big mistake.

So, what was your issue with the review? Why are you suggesting that Joel faked something or was dishonest? Are you so naive as to believe that if a salesan is nice to you on the phone when selling you expensive products that they must be that way and anyone who had a contrary experience must be a liar?

I just don't get it. What was the point of that post? Why all these innuendos against a guy who gave us an honest review and accounting of how he was treated? Unless you have some more information for us, I think an apology would be in order.

**Joe Lerch** · 01-01-2006, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by Read

Michael,
I agree with your assessment of Charles and Jean. There is always two sides to every story and I am sure we don't know it all but I have no doubt that Charles and/or Jean would welcome the opportunity to make things right with one of their customers; at least that has always been my experience. I would not be satisfied in the least if I had a brush as shown in the previous thread but I feel confident that it would be replaced at no charge or inconvenience to me. While Joel has the right to state his case and disparage a vendor, it is proper for those of us with different experiences to say so too. There is more than meets the eye here, past history and all, so one should consider both sides' reputations before assuming anything.

So, you assume Joel must be withholding something because CAR sweet talks you on the phone?

Do you have any facts, or do you just enjoy stirring up controversy?

I think you and Ludwig need to get together and start a thread on how saintly CAR is and that anybody that says anything bad about him must be a liar.

**Nick** · 01-01-2006, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by Read

Nick,
I don't believe Charles, or any vendor for that matter should feel like they have to state their case on any forum. Most businessmen probably do not have the time.

You said: "There is always two sides to every story and I am sure we don't know it all..." I was not suggesting that Charles has to state his case, I was simply pointing out that he has the second side to this story, and he's welcome to share it if he'd like.

My account status has nothing to do with this thread.

In your prior post, you stated:

There is more than meets the eye here, past history and all, so one should consider both sides' reputations before assuming anything.

The past history is, on another like forum, you repeatedly asked for your account to be deleted. I am not positive if it was deleted, and then you created it again, and asked for it deleted again, as I was not present when that occurred. You then came over here and started doing the exact same thing, which is pecuiliar behavior at the least. What's more pecuiliar is that you feel that past history and reputation is important for other people, so I naturally assumed it applied to you as well, I guess not?

To the best of my recollection, CAR has some "history" too (which you neglect to mention). I won't mention it as I don't feel it's particularly germane to the topic at hand. The main issue is, after a year of touting CAR's products, did Joel purchase a $250 brush (along with hundreds of dollars of other products during that purchase), and then with the intent to deceive this forum yank hairs from said $250 brush, and fabricate pictures, and concoct a story? Well, you're free to come to any conclusion on that matter. If I can steal Occam's Razor from our friend Mr. Greenberg for a moment.....

But since you felt the need to bring it up - I asked for my account to be closed after my posts were deleted. That was fine with me as I mentioned then the only reason I wanted it closed was because I didn't have the time to really be active.

Which posts were deleted (I'm geniunely curious)? It's a policy here to "soft delete" so that a record of the deleted thread, or post still remains. I searched, and the only post of yours I could find that was deleted was in this thread, and the post was deleted by yourself, no one else. If there are other posts you made that were deleted, I'm anxious to hear about them as that would mean there was a hiccup along the way.

While we're on the subject (since I brought it up, and you continued down that path), do you mind if I ask what your reasons were for wanting to have your account deleted from SMF? Also, if I could ask, how does your account remaining here affect you if you don't have the time to remain active? Most people just stop coming to a forum they don't have time for, they don't try to have their account deleted.

Back to CAR. Yes, I do know Charles would do right by the brush (at least for me). If he won't for Joel, I know from experience that there must be more to the story. I will leave it at that.

Why leave it at that? Why leave it at insinuation and innuendo? If Charles gives you such outstanding service (which I can't comment to one way or the other, as I have never had any dealings with him), why don't you ask him what's being left out from the story?

Please get whatever permission you need and delete my account.

I'll raise the issue with the mods. As I told you the last time you requested, they're the ones with the authority to make that determination, not me.

Happy New Year,

-Nick

P.S. Occam's Razor in a nutshell: If you're at Churchill Downs and you hear hoofbeats, think horse, not zebra.

**HlSheppard** · 01-01-2006, 05:03 AM

The best think I can think of right now is to echo Scotto's earlier thought:

I would suggest everyone take a collective deep breath from here on in and stick to the facts. If you have good experiences, continue to share them. If someone has poor ones, share those too. Everyone can make their own conclusions without getting too personal.

It's one thing to say "Hey - I've always been treated properly by Charles R." it would be completely another thing to say "You're lying because I've never been treated like you're describing."

Personally, I've always had good service from Enchante and I have also been a user/supporter of their products. Frankly, it was Joel's pictorial "My Foray Into Methodshaving" that demystified the whole process enough for me to take the leap.

Just because my experiences have all been good ones with this vendor does NOT mean that what Joel states didn't happen. Furthermore, because Joel had/has a problem with the vendor doesn't mean you can't do business with them in the future. Facts are our friends.

I do wish that Charles would address this somehow. We have many vendors that particpate in the forum. If he can take the time to send e-mails (and I know he does) then it's no different to post some responses here. Again - I would welcome it from the standpoint of hearing both sides of the story. Based on what I've heard so far, Joel's treatment would certainly seem indefensible.

Many folks (including myself) look forward to Joel's pictorials/reviews. I don't always agree with what he says about a product because what he likes and what I like may differ. That's half the fun. The decision to make that purchase is always mine. In this instance, what stands to be gained by lying about what happened?

For me, watching how this plays out will certainly affect any further decisions I make, however...

**methodshaving.com** · 01-01-2006, 01:23 PM

I think a lot of people are missing a few point and Joel I think you need to think about something as well. The issue at hand is not if CAR has stood behind the product. Joel has mentioned that he offered to repair or replace the brush after it was returned. No where in his policies or terms and conditions does he offer and advance replacement policy. So I believe by offering to repair or replace the returned brush is standing behind the product. The issue is Joel is upset that this is the only option that has been presented and that he has to be inconvienieced.

Well Joel I think you should think of it in these terms. If the brush you have is having the issues you say it is, and no one is denying this, then maybe the issue is deeper than it appears. If this is the case maybe it makes sense for the manufacturer to inspect the defect and determine if the fix is required of all the existing product. If this is the case it gives them the opportuntiy to fix yours and all other brushes. It also stops the possibilty of you getting another brush that will suffer the same fate.

I understand not wanting to be inconvienced and out of a brush but thinks of the facts. What I can't understand is why you would self a broken brush and who who be so stupid as to buy it. If you have this kind of time, send it in for repair/replacement and then sell a good brush to someone.

**Clark** · 01-01-2006, 01:26 PM

I have watched this thread evolve and just had to ask a question. I never hear negative comments about QED or EMS Place. Seems to me that some of the new and old vedors are just not good business people plain and simple. I guess I am glad I found QED and EMS Place and to be honest I will not go anywhere else. Both are great to talk with honest and produce a super product and stand behind it.

Remember there is no product that gives you the perfect shave it does not exist.

Enjoy shaving for what it is!

**guenron** · 01-01-2006, 01:40 PM

Adam,
First, I hope you have a Happy New Year. Now for one point that underlies the entire issue. Let us first assume that CAR cannot afford to cross-ship a replacement for the defective merchandise he originally shipped. Assuming this at least eliminates the issue of just plain miserable customer service. So that brings us to the real point, how does a piece of goods like that get shipped to a customer? It seems that all of the flowery manure is just that, manure. This brush is no quality product, it's obviously a piece of garbage thrown into the mail to collect the good old dollar. Obviously no one inspects this trash before it is shipped. That handle certainly is not indicative of any quality other than greed.
Sorry, this incident really tells all that need be said about this merchandiser..

**Scotto** · 01-01-2006, 01:44 PM

Folks, I think this thread has outlived its already dubious usefulness and we should just let it die. People have posted their individual opinions of this vendor, and based on this and other accounts, we can make our own personal conclusions. Anything further will just further degenerate into name calling.