The MMA Thread

**SRock** · 09-12-2009, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Obsessed

Are you guys willing to tolerate a question from a guy who know nothing about this? I'm just wondering what's off limits and how these guys avoid getting killed. For example:

Fouls

The following acts are universally considered fouls in the mixed martial arts world:

- Head butting.
- Eye gouging.
- Hair pulling.
- Biting.
- Fish-hooking.
- Attacking the groin.
- Strikes to the back of the head and spinal area.
- Strikes to, or grabs of the trachea.
- Small joint manipulation (control of three or more fingers/toes is necessary).
- Intentionally throwing your opponent out of the ring/cage.
- Running out of the ring/cage.
- Purposely holding the ring ropes or cage fence.
- Grabbing or putting a hand inside the trunks or gloves of the opponent.

In N. America you cannot knee or kick a downed opponent (knees on the ground or lower) in the head (i.e. no soccer kick). You cannot stomp down on a downed opponent or jump feet first onto a downed opponent.

Originally Posted by Obsessed

I remember as a kid when Turkey Jones of the Browns slammed Terry Bradshaw's head into the ground during a game, and Bradshaw was out of commission.

Luckily in the case of my match my opponent went ten kinds of googly eyed but wasn't knocked out. He was so rattled he tapped and said, "I can't, I quit". He wasn't injured. A few minutes after and he was fine.

The fact that there is no standing count (such as in boxing) prevents people from taking horrendous amounts of abuse such as in boxing where a man's head can get pummeled over and over and over and as long as he gets back up and stands on his own before the count is up he can go back in and have his head bashed on over and over and over. Getting knocked out swiftly is typically going to be less damaging to you physically than having your skull rattled around forever. All in all I think people are more likely to get severely injured in traditional boxing than they are in MMA. Think of all the matches that end in a submission or G&P which isn't always as painful as it looks, but once you lose control and the ability to defend the ref calls the fight. In boxing the goal and only real goal is to pound your opponent in the face until he cannot go on.

Originally Posted by FreezerBurns

From the UFC website:
No head butting or kicking to the downed opponent
No knees to the head of a downed opponent
No downward point of the elbow strikes
No strikes to the spine or the back of the head
No groin or throat strikes

I'd be willing to bet biting and hair pulling is off limits as well. Oh, and no holding on to the cage.

These are correct and a few others above as well.

**thunderball** · 09-12-2009, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by SlagleRock

Fouls

The following acts are universally considered fouls in the mixed martial arts world:

- Head butting.
- Eye gouging.
- Hair pulling.
- Biting.
- Fish-hooking.
- Attacking the groin.
- Strikes to the back of the head and spinal area.
- Strikes to, or grabs of the trachea.
- Small joint manipulation (control of three or more fingers/toes is necessary).
- Intentionally throwing your opponent out of the ring/cage.
- Running out of the ring/cage.
- Purposely holding the ring ropes or cage fence.
- Grabbing or putting a hand inside the trunks or gloves of the opponent.

In N. America you cannot knee or kick a downed opponent (knees on the ground or lower) in the head (i.e. no soccer kick). You cannot stomp down on a downed opponent or jump feet first onto a downed opponent.

Luckily in the case of my match my opponent went ten kinds of googly eyed but wasn't knocked out. He was so rattled he tapped and said, "I can't, I quit". He wasn't injured. A few minutes after and he was fine.

The fact that there is no standing count (such as in boxing) prevents people from taking horrendous amounts of abuse such as in boxing where a man's head can get pummeled over and over and over and as long as he gets back up and stands on his own before the count is up he can go back in and have his head bashed on over and over and over. Getting knocked out swiftly is typically going to be less damaging to you physically than having your skull rattled around forever. All in all I think people are more likely to get severely injured in traditional boxing than they are in MMA. Think of all the matches that end in a submission or G&P which isn't always as painful as it looks, but once you lose control and the ability to defend the ref calls the fight. In boxing the goal and only real goal is to pound your opponent in the face until he cannot go on.

These are correct and a few others above as well.

Awesome post!

**SRock** · 09-12-2009, 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by thunderball

Awesome post!

Thanks brother, I'm here for the team!

**Obsessed** · 09-13-2009, 05:25 AM

Thanks for the info!

**The Nid Hog** · 09-13-2009, 06:34 AM

I thought maybe I'd build on some of the discussion that we've already had about what's allowed and what isn't. In the US, almost all mainstream MMA follows the pattern of the UFC. In Japan, there's a pretty wide variety. Dream is relatively similar to UFC, with a ring instead of a cage and a few different rules. K-1 is fairly straightforward kickboxing. Other promotions like Pancrase have been even more different--like catch wrestling and bare-knuckle fighting combined.

Here's my question--what kind of non-UFC martial arts competition would you like to see in the US? I mean legit stuff--not two guys with chainsaws. I'd like to see more stickgrappling. Full contact submission fighting built around Filipino martial arts like arnis/escrima/Inosanto kali plus grappling. The most famous practitioners are the Dog Brothers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6EZE_rmsQs

How about you? What do you want to see?

**SRock** · 09-13-2009, 06:38 AM

Personally I'm pretty happy with MMA. I like the idea of challenging various styles.

Bruce Lee said it best, "Having no style as style".

Although Dan Inosanto was/is the man and Escrima is a riot to watch.

I like true submission fights that don't allow strikes from a purely technical standpoint but the average person doesn't get the intricacies of it all (which is why many MMA fans boo when it hits the ground unless it is G&P).

**SRock** · 09-13-2009, 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by thunderball

So I know that many of you here are into MMA in all its various forms so I thought it fitting that we have sort of a 'general MMA discussion' thread where we can discuss the subject in all its fistic glory. I know that the odd thread pops up concerning certain events but I wonder if would be better if we had sort of an ongoing discussion where we could banter about this stuff. Whether you watch UFC, WEC, Sengoku, Dream, Cage Rage, DEEP, Shooto, Strikeforce, Pride re-runs or are a practitioner yourself, this thread is for you!

Let's keep it cool and have a good time.

For a first topic of discussion (feel free to ignore mine and throw in others) I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the imminent return of one of the baddest dudes from the days of Pride: Ricardo Arona. Admittedly, he's up against an old journeyman, Marvin Eastman, but Ricardo says he's back in shape after a two-year layoff and is hoping to get back into one of the big organizations and make a title run. I was stunned at his knockout at the hands of Soukoudjou a few years back and have missed him ever since...though to be honest I usually was hoping for whomever he was facing ever since he pulled that nasty 'cut squeezing' crap on Sakuraba. What say ye MMA fans? Are Ricardo's best days far behind him or is the 'Brazilian Tiger' going to make a run? Should Machida and Shogun be at all concerned? One thing's for sure, he looks to be back in fighting shape:

Looks like he did alright in his return:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/aro...combat-4-19656

**Shane27** · 09-13-2009, 07:36 AM

What are everyone's thoughts on the UFC fight night Wednesday and the beginning of the Ultimate Fighter Heavyweights?

I have been looking forward to it for weeks :)

**SRock** · 09-13-2009, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by Shane27

What are everyone's thoughts on the UFC fight night Wednesday and the beginning of the Ultimate Fighter Heavyweights?

I have been looking forward to it for weeks :)

I'm always looking forward to TUF!

**spanx** · 09-13-2009, 07:44 AM

A couple of the rules confuse me and I would like your input.The first applies to neck cranks and throat related manuvers.If you crank a neck in a fast motion you can damage the spinal cord. This is a good rule to have, but they allow gullitine chokes.A gullitine choke is equally as dangerous because pressure is applied to the trachea and the vertabrea is stretched vertically.This can also lead to spinal cord damage.Also I'd like to know why anlke related manuvers are allowed but not wrist moves.ankles are just as fragile.If an ankle is broken it is harder to reabilitate because of their complexity which in my opinion can more easily end a career.One other thing for now is why don't they abide by the rules they make?Specifically the point of the elbow downward strikes.This is against the rules,But if anyone watched Diego fight Clay the rule seemed not to apply.I was thinking of a couple of other things but I lost my train of thought.So any clarity you can give I would appreciate.

**SRock** · 09-13-2009, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by spanx

A couple of the rules confuse me and I would like your input.The first applies to neck cranks and throat related manuvers.If you crank a neck in a fast motion you can damage the spinal cord. This is a good rule to have, but they allow gullitine chokes.A gullitine choke is equally as dangerous because pressure is applied to the trachea and the vertabrea is stretched vertically.This can also lead to spinal cord damage.Also I'd like to know why anlke related manuvers are allowed but not wrist moves.ankles are just as fragile.If an ankle is broken it is harder to reabilitate because of their complexity which in my opinion can more easily end a career.One other thing for now is why don't they abide by the rules they make?Specifically the point of the elbow downward strikes.This is against the rules,But if anyone watched Diego fight Clay the rule seemed not to apply.I was thinking of a couple of other things but I lost my train of thought.So any clarity you can give I would appreciate.

Actually a guillotine choke can be applied one of two ways. The first as you mention restricts the flow of air. However, because it is applied in a pressure fashion and not a striking fashion it allows the person receiving it to respond when it becomes painful and before it is damaging/dangerous. The other way it is applied restricts the flow of blood to the brain and causes a person to pass out as well. Some wrist maneuvers are allowed. In fact in the UFC any hand or foot maneuver must encompass pressure being applied to "three or more" fingers or toes so it doesn't restrict the wrist or ankle. As for the elbows thats a tough one. You can strike with the elbow like you are throwing a punch but you cant use it like a stabbing implement. It really depends on the refs perspective.

**The Nid Hog** · 09-13-2009, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by SlagleRock

Although Dan Inosanto was/is the man and Escrima is a riot to watch.

Guro Dan is awesome. One of the most unbelievably talented, quietly charismatic people I've ever seen. Everybody says that learning from him is like trying to sip from a firehose.

Originally Posted by SlagleRock

I like true submission fights that don't allow strikes from a purely technical standpoint but the average person doesn't get the intricacies of it all (which is why many MMA fans boo when it hits the ground unless it is G&P).

I agree. I'm really looking forward to the ADCC 2009 matches in Barcelona later this month (Sept 26 and 26). I think that it's on PPV, but it's also being webcast.

http://www.adcc2009.com/

If you guys living in Japan are interested, it's really easy to find DVDs of past ADCC competitions. I was working out at a Gold's Gym in Chiba a couple of years ago and the had a huge selection in their little equipment store.

**spanx** · 09-13-2009, 08:21 AM

A guillotine choke can be applied 1 way and that is by wrapping your arm around the back of the head bringing your forearm (thumb up)across the throat and applying pressure to the windpipe, while also arching you back in order to apply torque to the spine in a vertical fashion. If done slowly this will give time to tap avoiding injury but is no less dangerous.The other way you refered to is not a guillotine, it is a vascular choke by applying pressure to the carotid arteries.This slows the blood flow to the brain which leads to blacking out.There is no vertical torque applied as it will not improve execution of the manuver.There is also no direct pressure on the windpipe so it is far less likely to cause a permanent injury.

**The Nid Hog** · 09-13-2009, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by SlagleRock

You can strike with the elbow like you are throwing a punch but you cant use it like a stabbing implement. It really depends on the refs perspective.

Although you see lots of elbows like that from the bottom. That's allowed, isn't it?

**spanx** · 09-13-2009, 08:43 AM

If you use the point of your elbow to strike then indeed it is a stabbing motion and that is supposed to be against the rules.But the rule is not that clear.Maybe they mean you can't use it to come down on an opponent whho is kneeling of front of you while you are standind.Being that they are on the grounf the striking is the same and the point of impact is the same.So it should not be allowed to go on whether standing or not.The same type of thing has also been talked about when involving knees.It seems that it is ok to do it standing but not ok when on the ground.I'm failing to understand the difference.

**The Nid Hog** · 09-13-2009, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by spanx

A guillotine choke can be applied 1 way and that is by wrapping your arm around the back of the head bringing your forearm (thumb up)across the throat and applying pressure to the windpipe, while also arching you back in order to apply torque to the spine in a vertical fashion. If done slowly this will give time to tap avoiding injury but is no less dangerous.The other way you refered to is not a guillotine, it is a vascular choke by applying pressure to the carotid arteries.This slows the blood flow to the brain which leads to blacking out.There is no vertical torque applied as it will not improve execution of the manuver.There is also no direct pressure on the windpipe so it is far less likely to cause a permanent injury.

I'm going to agree with Rob (not that this is such a big deal). I think that you can apply the guillotine both ways, inc. vascular. You can also get the guilotine choke w/neck crank without the head being to your side (that's how I'm imagining your description working out). Depending on position, you can jam their head up against your abdomen/chest and get the choke while they're directly to your front--both standing. I learned all of those as guillotines, but maybe there are other names for them?

**Mejnoon** · 09-13-2009, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by The Nid Hog

I'm going to agree with Rob (not that this is such a big deal). I think that you can apply the guillotine both ways, inc. vascular. You can also get the guilotine choke w/neck crank without the head being to your side (that's how I'm imagining your description working out). Depending on position, you can jam their head up against your abdomen/chest and get the choke while they're directly to your front--both standing. I learned all of those as guillotines, but maybe there are other names for them?

I agree with this. There are many variations on the "front choke" out there, but in my experience as long as the arm is not trapped it is referred to as a guillotine.

I used to roll with a guy who was short and very thick...5'6" and about 225, extremely strong power-lifter type build. He used to love to guillotine guys from the top, and he didn't have to get it very tight...he would finish by dropping his chest on your head and turning it in to a neck crank. Nastiest "guillotine" I've ever experienced, he had me tapping fast every time he went for it.

I think its certainly possible for a person to cause spine injuries with a guillotine or other similar techniques, but only if there was a major strength mis-match. Weight classes tend to alleviate such concerns.

**Mejnoon** · 09-13-2009, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by The Nid Hog

Although you see lots of elbows like that from the bottom. That's allowed, isn't it?

As I understand the rule a north-south strike with the point of the elbow is illegal...any other elbow strike is fair game. From the bottom you do often see point of the elbow strikes, but generally travelling parallel to the mat.