The MMA Thread

[The Nid Hog]

I think the problem for Randy is that he only wants to fight in big fights that would bring huge crowds. This means either title fights against Lesnar at HW or dropping down to challenge Machida at LHW or fights like a catchweight fight with Anderson Silva or a big name like Tito Ortiz. Problem is he isn't a top contender to get those fights anymore and UFC would have to leapfrog the top contenders to give him these fights. Then in the end he really can't beat these guys at this point in his career. I understand him not wanting to retire or be relagated to a journeyman or gatekeeper status, but truthfully, that's where he needs to be right now. I won't take anything away from him though, he always comes ready to fight and it's hard to count him out.

You're right. Randy is the Bruno Sammartino of MMA. I don't expect to see him win in a fight, although if he winds up fighting all six, he might pull one or two out. What I expect to see is him playing the part of the old lion--defending his legacy with dignity and courage. UFC's media machine got Chuck a lot of attention but, regardless of his losses, I just don't think that he had the charisma to hold the spotlight. Lesnar and Tito (if he returns for any length of time) are heels and can only take the promotion so far. Randy--or at least the media version of Randy--brings gravity to the sport. Every penny that Zuffa pays him will make money for them.

[SRock]

What makes Randy Couture so amazing and keeps him in the spotlight is the fact that 17 of his 26 fights have involved a title. No one else in MMA has percentages like that with a relatively small number of fights.

Randy--or at least the media version of Randy--brings gravity to the sport. Every penny that Zuffa pays him will make money for them.

+1

[thunderball]

What makes Randy Couture so amazing and keeps him in the spotlight is the fact that 17 of his 26 fights have involved a title. No one else in MMA has percentages like that with a relatively small number of fights.

Whoa, I actually didn't know that little fun fact. That's amazing really. It's also amazing how many losses he's actually had (and still manages to remain insanely popular!)

[SRock]

Whoa, I actually didn't know that little fun fact. That's amazing really. It's also amazing how many losses he's actually had (and still manages to remain insanely popular!)

Yeah but when you consider that most of his 10 losses were to reigning champions or number one contenders like Big Nog, Gabe Gonzaga, Brock Lesnar, The Iceman, Vitor Belfort, and Josh Barnett and then factor in that he gives up an average of about 35lbs anytime he fights the HW's and the fact that he avenged most of these losses its pretty easy to see how he remained popular.

[thunderball]

Yeah but when you consider that most of his 10 losses were to reigning champions or number one contenders like Big Nog, Gabe Gonzaga, Brock Lesnar, The Iceman, Vitor Belfort, and Josh Barnett and then factor in that he gives up an average of about 35lbs anytime he fights the HW's and the fact that he avenged most of these losses its pretty easy to see how he remained popular.

True, true.

[FreezerBurns]

Has anyone seen the show "Bully Beatdown?" They pay bullies to step into the cage with an MMA fighter, hosted by Jason "Mayhem" Miller.

[thunderball]

Has anyone seen the show "Bully Beatdown?" They pay bullies to step into the cage with an MMA fighter, hosted by Jason "Mayhem" Miller.

Yeah, I've seen a couple. Obviously highly-staged but the premise of the show is very clever...I mean who doesn't want to see a bully get his just desserts? The gap between the average 'tough guy' or 'bully' and a real deal, trained MMA fighter though is obviously huge. I guess that makes it even more satisfying for the viewer; when the bully steps in there looking confident and talking trash and you just know he's about to enter a world of pain. And of course Miller plays up the crazy host role pretty well too. Hardly realistic, but strangely satisfying.

[SRock]

Yeah, I've seen a couple. Obviously highly-staged but the premise of the show is very clever...I mean who doesn't want to see a bully get his just desserts? The gap between the average 'tough guy' or 'bully' and a real deal, trained MMA fighter though is obviously huge. I guess that makes it even more satisfying for the viewer; when the bully steps in there looking confident and talking trash and you just know he's about to enter a world of pain. And of course Miller plays up the crazy host role pretty well too. Hardly realistic, but strangely satisfying.

I haven't seen the show, but you are right about the gap between a trained fighter and a bully/brawler. In my third true/regulated MMA fight my opponent found this out the hard way. He wrestled a couple of years in school and allegedly got into a lot of fights. Eh thought that qualified him for our tournament. Someone supported his claims and he was allowed to enter. Our fight lasted about 30 seconds. He immediately tried for a double leg and my sprawl stopped him. He backed off (too quickly) and I returned the favor pushing him into the wall (padded racquetball court not cage). I transitioned to a high single leg and he did the right thing (for a wrestler) and shifted his weight over my shoulder/back in an attempt to drive me down to the mat. However, that made it all to easy for me to pick him up and drive his head into the mat. He tapped from the slam. He never saw it coming. That is one of the things that I think are difficult for some people to adjust to in the world of Mixed Martial Arts. Many train for so long in one discipline they instinctually do what works under the competitive rules of that discipline. When you eliminate almost all of the rules that is a huge hindrance.

[FreezerBurns]

Yeah, I've seen a couple...Hardly realistic, but strangely satisfying.

You're right, it is strangely satisfying to watch John "Man of Faith" Murphy beat the tar out of a self proclaimed bleep-hole.

[thunderball]

That is one of the things that I think are difficult for some people to adjust to in the world of Mixed Martial Arts. Many train for so long in one discipline they instinctually do what works under the competitive rules of that discipline. When you eliminate almost all of the rules that is a huge hindrance.

Yep. When you get strikers who have never had a submission put on them, or a wrestler who has never really been punched hard in the face you get all sorts of crazy reactions (or lack thereof). It's like putting a sprinter or a marathon runner into a decathalon. I think that's what makes MMA athletes so amazing; to be 'good' these days you have to have such a wide training base and be prepared for almost any eventuality. Twenty years ago to have an athlete who wrestled in college, has a black belt in jiu-jitsu, and pro boxing/kickboxing experience would have been an extremely rare individual indeed, but now you have leagues of guys like this. Even a 'pure' karate guy like Machida has insane jiu-jitsu (and sumo!) skills and then you have a 'pure' BJJ guy like Nogueira boxing with guys from the Cuban national team. Awesome! It's cool to go back and watch the first couple of Prides and UFCs and marvel at how the level of the sport has improved over the last fifteen years or so.

[SRock]

It's cool to go back and watch the first couple of Prides and UFCs and marvel at how the level of the sport has improved over the last fifteen years or so.

Huge +1

[spanx]

I like to watch fights for their technical applications,but i wish they would open up the rules of what they can do so that a wider array of diciplines can be involved without a hinderence to which tecniques canbe applied. I'm a 2nd dan in hapkido focusing on small circle joint locks ,holds,subs,breaks,and throws.I know the rules barring small joint techniques is for safety but youd be amazed at how fast a persons legs stop working when you slap a proper wristlock on them.Like I said i would like to see some other diciplines get involved not just the same old same old.

[The Nid Hog]

I think that there are a lot of arguments about that. Of course, the original spirit of NHB fighting was that you could do anything you want. A lot of what made it into MMA as we know it today is completely accidental--it's what the guys who were fighting happened to be good at. Some of the stuff that people tried out in the early days is gone--you really don't see any fighters basing their standup on Sumo anymore. Likewise, there isn't any JKD-type midrange trapping. It just doesn't seem to work. Some seems to be less widely practiced--you don't see two fighters going for leglocks much anymore in the post-Bas UFC. Still, it's not gone completely. With the addition of gloves, Pancrase-type slapping has disappeared too. On the other hand, because of Machida, karate is starting to make a comeback--Vitor might show some moves in his upcoming fight.

As far as small joint techniques go, I guess that your arm is just as broken if you don't submit on an armbar and get it broken as it would be if you had it broken in a wristlock. There's an argument that it's too difficult for referees to regulate it. Who knows. There's also some attempt to keep it so that fighters aren't so badly damaged in a match that they can't quickly turn around and fight again (regulations about elbows fall under this too). Maybe if Steven Seagal instead of Rorion Gracie got the UFC going, we'd have a different look to MMA. Instead of Muay Thai and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, there might be a version based on silat and savate. I'm sure that we'll see some changes in the years to come.

Even so, I think that the thing that is going to have the biggest influence on MMA, and the biggest change that i've seen, is the dominance of collegiate wrestling as the basis for most up and coming fighters. There's just a huge pool of experienced groundfighters with a dedication to conditioning that has finally connected up with martial arts. It was always there (and catchwrestling too), but now the floodgates are open.

[FreezerBurns]

Even so, I think that the thing that is going to have the biggest influence on MMA, and the biggest change that i've seen, is the dominance of collegiate wrestling as the basis for most up and coming fighters. There's just a huge pool of experienced groundfighters with a dedication to conditioning that has finally connected up with martial arts. It was always there (and catchwrestling too), but now the floodgates are open.

For the first time in history, exceptional high school and collegiate wrestlers have a high profile, well paying profession to work toward. It almost gives a sense of validity to the athletes who participate sport of wrestling. Before MMA, collegiate wrestlers had two options: Get a job or try to make the Olympic team. Until recently, football, basketball, and baseball players could dream of and work toward a monetarily lucrative professional career in their sport but what could wrestlers do? Try to make the Olympic team and make zero dollars? Finally, good wrestlers have a forum to compete and display their skill and make a living while doing so.

[The Nid Hog]

For the first time in history, exceptional high school and collegiate wrestlers have a high profile, well paying profession to work toward. It almost gives a sense of validity to the athletes who participate sport of wrestling. Before MMA, collegiate wrestlers had two options: Get a job or try to make the Olympic team. Until recently, football, basketball, and baseball players could dream of and work toward a monetarily lucrative professional career in their sport but what could wrestlers do? Try to make the Olympic team and make zero dollars? Finally, good wrestlers have a forum to compete and display their skill and make a living while doing so.

You're absolutely right. In the early days of jiu jitsu's popularity in the US (early 90s), I'd occasionally run into somebody who had grappling experience, but not too many people who had been top level competitors. I think that wrestlers added an important element of intensity to MMA training too. It's hard to believe that not so long ago there was so much resistance to the idea of realistic training. I think that the integration of serious wrestlers into early MMA programs like the Straight Blast Gym changed the face of martial arts in the US.

[SRock]

I like to watch fights for their technical applications,but i wish they would open up the rules of what they can do so that a wider array of diciplines can be involved without a hinderence to which tecniques can be applied. I'm a 2nd dan in hapkido focusing on small circle joint locks ,holds,subs,breaks,and throws.I know the rules barring small joint techniques is for safety but youd be amazed at how fast a persons legs stop working when you slap a proper wristlock on them.Like I said i would like to see some other diciplines get involved not just the same old same old.

I understand where you are coming from on this, but small joint manipulation is both harder for the Refs to see/regulate and more likely to land someone a serious injury. Even when applied properly depending on how the recipient reacts it could land them in serious trouble.

I think that there are a lot of arguments about that. Of course, the original spirit of NHB fighting was that you could do anything you want. A lot of what made it into MMA as we know it today is completely accidental--it's what the guys who were fighting happened to be good at. Some of the stuff that people tried out in the early days is gone--you really don't see any fighters basing their standup on Sumo anymore. Likewise, there isn't any JKD-type midrange trapping. It just doesn't seem to work. Some seems to be less widely practiced--you don't see two fighters going for leglocks much anymore in the post-Bas UFC. Still, it's not gone completely. With the addition of gloves, Pancrase-type slapping has disappeared too. On the other hand, because of Machida, karate is starting to make a comeback--Vitor might show some moves in his upcoming fight.

As far as small joint techniques go, I guess that your arm is just as broken if you don't submit on an armbar and get it broken as it would be if you had it broken in a wristlock. There's an argument that it's too difficult for referees to regulate it. Who knows. There's also some attempt to keep it so that fighters aren't so badly damaged in a match that they can't quickly turn around and fight again (regulations about elbows fall under this too). Maybe if Steven Seagal instead of Rorion Gracie got the UFC going, we'd have a different look to MMA. Instead of Muay Thai and Brazilian jiu-jitsu, there might be a version based on silat and savate. I'm sure that we'll see some changes in the years to come.

Even so, I think that the thing that is going to have the biggest influence on MMA, and the biggest change that i've seen, is the dominance of collegiate wrestling as the basis for most up and coming fighters. There's just a huge pool of experienced groundfighters with a dedication to conditioning that has finally connected up with martial arts. It was always there (and catchwrestling too), but now the floodgates are open.

I agree that wrestling is having a larger and larger impact on the world of MMA. Just like it has from the early days MMA will continue to evolve.

For the first time in history, exceptional high school and collegiate wrestlers have a high profile, well paying profession to work toward. It almost gives a sense of validity to the athletes who participate sport of wrestling. Before MMA, collegiate wrestlers had two options: Get a job or try to make the Olympic team. Until recently, football, basketball, and baseball players could dream of and work toward a monetarily lucrative professional career in their sport but what could wrestlers do? Try to make the Olympic team and make zero dollars? Finally, good wrestlers have a forum to compete and display their skill and make a living while doing so.

+1

You're absolutely right. In the early days of jiu jitsu's popularity in the US (early 90s), I'd occasionally run into somebody who had grappling experience, but not too many people who had been top level competitors. I think that wrestlers added an important element of intensity to MMA training too. It's hard to believe that not so long ago there was so much resistance to the idea of realistic training. I think that the integration of serious wrestlers into early MMA programs like the Straight Blast Gym changed the face of martial arts in the US.

Guys like Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, Matt Hughes, Randy and others all contributed to the rise of wrestlers in MMA. When I was in High School I had a friend who was a great Muay Thai practitioner but when we'd spar "all out" as we called it then he was hosed 100% of the time when I got a hold of him. On the flip side of that I had to defend against his strikes or eat some serious shots to get the take down. Great strikers are absolutely amazing to watch but in MMA even great strikers have to work on their take down defense and ground game. Without some grappling ability they'd be owned by a great wrestler on the ground.

[The Nid Hog]

Guys like Mark Coleman, Kevin Randleman, Matt Hughes, Randy and others all contributed to the rise of wrestlers in MMA. When I was in High School I had a friend who was a great Muay Thai practitioner but when we'd spar "all out" as we called it then he was hosed 100% of the time when I got a hold of him. On the flip side of that I had to defend against his strikes or eat some serious shots to get the take down. Great strikers are absolutely amazing to watch but in MMA even great strikers have to work on their take down defense and ground game. Without some grappling ability they'd be owned by a great wrestler on the ground.

That's right. But I think that the athleticism of wrestlers completely changed the game as much as their skills. By the time MMA took off, boxing had declined so much that there was very little cross training. You might be at a gym where people were hitting the heavy bag or the speed bag, but they weren't often doing it under the eye of experienced boxers. As a result, most dojos didn't emphasize the brutal and exhausting side of combat. Mainstream gyms (which didn't even call themselves gyms--nobody seemed to want to face what that would mean) were all about point sparring and forms, and there was a massive debate about why it wasn't even necessary to really mix it up. To be sure, there were groups that were interested in changing things, but a lot of work was being done in garages and backyards--out of the mainstream.

Jiu jitsu changed everything. It made competitors realize that they had to rely on techniques that worked, functional strength and endurance, not a blast of ki that they had developed through hours of kneeling on a straw mat. This is where wrestlers came in. They already knew this stuff and didn't waste any time thinking about the mystical roots of collegiate wrestling. They were used to a much higher level of functional fitness. As more wrestlers got involved in MMA (which nobody was really calling MMA then), word got out that you had to rely on physical strength and endurance, not the delayed death touch or "crane-catches-fish."

This made gym owners or potential owners realize that there was a big source of possible customers in the US that they had been missing. Guys that I knew who owned martial arts schools couldn't support themselves with the occasional former military guys or roughnecks that were interested in more hardcore combat. One of my friends who operated a fairly successful school told me that it was hard to keep a customer beyond three months. A big part of martial arts appeal--the "Karate Kid" factor--was to people who weren't particularly athletic and who wanted to learn to defend themselves. Sometimes they were converted, but more often they were turned off by the intensity or they just didn't like getting punched in the eye. Schools had to turn to cardio kickboxing or little ninja classes to ensure a steady cash flow. My sense of the change is that getting wrestlers into storefront dojos made it possible for more places to have better, more realistic schools.

[SRock]

That's right. But I think that the athleticism of wrestlers completely changed the game as much as their skills.

I agree. It's nice to have other enthusiasts to discuss this with. I'm really digging this thread!

[Obsessed]

Are you guys willing to tolerate a question from a guy who know nothing about this? I'm just wondering what's off limits and how these guys avoid getting killed. For example:

However, that made it all to easy for me to pick him up and drive his head into the mat. He tapped from the slam..

I remember as a kid when Turkey Jones of the Browns slammed Terry Bradshaw's head into the ground during a game, and Bradshaw was out of commission.

[FreezerBurns]

Are you guys willing to tolerate a question from a guy who know nothing about this? I'm just wondering what's off limits and how these guys avoid getting killed. For example:



I remember as a kid when Turkey Jones of the Browns slammed Terry Bradshaw's head into the ground during a game, and Bradshaw was out of commission.

From the UFC website:
No head butting or kicking to the downed opponent
No knees to the head of a downed opponent
No downward point of the elbow strikes
No strikes to the spine or the back of the head
No groin or throat strikes

I'd be willing to bet biting and hair pulling is off limits as well. Oh, and no holding on to the cage.