many questions for someone interested in straight razors -->

hey all,

i've been using a DE razor for a little while now, and i'm thinking about trying a straight razor for the first time and i had a few questions:

1. i'd rather use a less expensive new straight razor than a used one - anyone with suggestions on one such razor (inexpensive dovo, filarmonica, TI). i know that there are starter kits (e.g. well-shaved gentleman), but i don't feel the need to pay the extra money for a brush, soap and mug if already have those.

2. does it really matter how big the blade is? what are the advantages of a 5/8 or 7/8 over a 3/8? are the shaves better with a larger blade?

3. what's the difference b/w stopping and honing? do you need to do both? how long does a strop last?

4. how long does a straight, used almost daily, typically last? i know some of you guys have razors that are decades old, but were they used constantly since new? i figure with the continuous sharpening, it'll sharpen down to nothing after not so long...

5. how do the shaves compare to a DE if a straight razor is used properly?

my impression is that straight razor shaving is a helluva expensive undertaking, but i may be wrong. it seems that you'd have to buy a new razor somewhat often, new strops all the time, pastes to go with strops, hones (whatever they are), and probably many other things i'm forgetting at the moment.

i know you guys have a great deal of knowledge on the subject, so hopefully you'd be able educate me on the whole big bad beast of a hobby.

1.) I would suggest a plain jane handled 5/8 ROUND POINT Thiers Issard - or a 5/8 stainless steel bladed DOVO.

2.) Yes, it does matter. For a beginner - you'll want a 5/8, as a good 5/8 will shave any beard type, yet is A LOT more manuverable than the larger sized blades, therefore it will be easiest to learn with, and the probability of you seriously injuring yourself will go down dramatically with a 5/8 versus say a 7/8 or 8/8.

3.) Honing is grating metal off of the blade to sharpen the blade with a stone of some sort. Stropping is aligning the edge of the blade before a shave with a hanging (or paddle) strip of treated leather. Yes, you do need to do both - but honing not so often (depending on how tough your beard is, if you have abrasive pasted strops, and how good your stropping technique is) where as stropping you must do daily prior to shaving. Both a strop and hone should outlive your great grandchildren - provided you maintain them properly - and do not go into honing business full time, as it would be theoretically possible to wear out a soft waterstone if you were honing tens of thousands of razors. Basically - I wouldn't worry about them not lasting, provided you don't drop/break the hone, or slice up the strop.

4.) A straight razor (used daily) - my guess is it would last AT LEAST 300-400 years of shaving daily, if proper honing/stropping techniques were administered and the razor was not dropped/broken/deatroyed/used as a prybar, etc.

5.) Personally - I feel that it will take the average Joe 8+ months to get a shave on par with a DE.... and a lot of fellas can/will never get a shave BETTER than a DE, unless they invest quite a bit of time into researching, improving, sharpening, etc. It isn't JUST technique, it is still at stropping, honing, building the right type of lather for a super close straight razor shave, and so on and so forth. I always tell people - if you are interested SOLELY in closeness, or if that is a major factor for you - don't even consider a legitimate straight razor - go RIGHT to a feather artist club, as you will see results very quickly, and will not have to worry about stropping/honing. Also, when you consider the added cost of a hone, strop, pastes, etc that is needed with a legit straight razor - you could instead purchase i'd say 300 or so feather blades, and seeing as how most guys can get at least 2 weeks out of a feather blade... some fellas near a month, you'd have 10+ years of blades, and never have to consider the hassle of stropping/honing. Remember, if you so much as TAP the edge of a straight razor on the head of the sink by accident as you go to wash lather from the blade (or whatever you are doing) that is a BIG deal - and can require hours of trial/error honing with different stones, pastes, etc to get the edge back to shave ready. With a feather artist club - you just pop a new blade in for what... 10 cents?

Sidebar (from your last paragraph) - yes, you are wrong. You do not NEED to buy new razors all of the time, etc etc - you very well could buy one hone, one razor and one strop. Many find a paddle strop coated with different diamond pastes dramatically reduces the amount of maintenence and skill required to maintain the razors edge, and opt to purchase one, however it is not necessary.

If you were doing it SOLELY for practical purposes (not a hobby) and wanted a really high end setup just for shaving: $70-80 will get you a plane jane (albeit top quality steel) TI Super Gnome or Evide Sonnant Extra (which will shave as good as any other high end razor) $120 will get you a TI paddle strop WITH pastes and a Norton 4/8K hone (and if you just pasted the rough side of the paddle, you could get away with using it as a daily strop) and then you'd be set for life.... for $200 or less, which is about the cost of 50 or 60 Gillette Fusion power blades - and if you'd like, I can hone it up for you, gratis - so throw in $10 or so in shipping costs to/from me if you so desire.

If you wanted to really do it right, you could get the same razor for $70-80, a Norton 4/8K Hone for $75, and a Tony Miller latigo #1 (with a free beginners strop thrown in) and a Tony Miller 4 sides strop (2 sides balsa 2 sides leather, coated with 3, 1, .5, and .25 micron diamond paste) for about $120 total - for a total of $265.

The aformentioned 2 setups would be all you would need for several lifetimes worth of straight razor shaves. Only thing is... once you try and master 1 straight razor... you pretty much want to try/master 'em all

Joel, you lost me after "the probability of your seriously injuring yourself."

Well said Joel.

I think Tony does sell sets minus the brush, soap, etc. for people who already have it. I could be wrong, but I'm too lazy to go and look. Check it out KP.

Jordan

I too had those exact same questions. Thanks for such a thorough response, Joel.

I have a Feather Razor on the way. Although I know it shaves very differently than a traditional straight razor, I figured it was a good way to develop some straight razor muscle memory. If I like the exercise of shaving in this manner, I'll then consider a traditional straight razor.

See this is why i come to this forum cause of guys like Joel and info like that excellent detailed answer.

jnich67 said:

Well said Joel.

I think Tony does sell sets minus the brush, soap, etc. for people who already have it. I could be wrong, but I'm too lazy to go and look. Check it out KP.

Jordan

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You are correct. It is just the stuff a DE user needs to convert to straight. Dovo razor, strop, pasted paddle strop, strop dressing. Everything you need, for a while at least, if you get the razor honed.

-Mo

Great response Joel! I get a closer shave with a straight. It took a few years to master it though. For me, that was the interesting part. I originally spent lots of money while learning and now pretty much keep shaving every day on a $10 barber hone, a single strop, and a few nice straight razors.

In my view:
If your interested in boating and think of a powerboat, your a DE guy. If you think of a sailboat, your a straight guy.

I'm not entirely sure a razor would last more than 100 years, I've heard of people needing to get them reground, but can't say for certain.

AFDavis11 said:

more than 100 years, I've heard of people needing to get them reground, but can't say for certain.

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I've certainly seen plenty on Ebay that were honed down so far I was surprised someone kept using them for the last 1/4". Maybe they were used by a barber, though, although I can't imagine a barber using one that worn out. Or maybe someone was just crazy with their hone and honed 200 strokes once a week, whether it needed it or not.

-Mo

Edit: If you have as many as Joel, they should be good for 1000+

AFDavis11 said:

If you think of a sailboat, your a straight guy.

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that's me. I love sailing and all that goes with it. I raced and sailed for pleasure... and now I shave with a straight. Now that you mention it it is similar in many ways.

Raf

AFDavis11 said:

If you think of a sailboat, your a straight guy.

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Well, I guess that just confirms it.... Of course, ideally I believe in having as many kinds of boats as possible. Hmm.... I do see the connection to RAD here.... At least it is cheaper than BAD....

-Mo

berzerkeleyan said:

I too had those exact same questions. Thanks for such a thorough response, Joel.

I have a Feather Razor on the way. Although I know it shaves very differently than a traditional straight razor, I figured it was a good way to develop some straight razor muscle memory. If I like the exercise of shaving in this manner, I'll then consider a traditional straight razor.

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Shaving with a Artist Club versus shaving with a straight razor are akin to driving with an automatic versus a manual transmission in a car. While overall - it is quite similar - if you can drive an automatic - it doesn't help you at all with driving a manual.

If you switch from an artist club, to a straight - you will be SORELY dissapointed, further - if you employ the technique of a feather to a straight - you'll get a really bad shave.

If you go with a feather - keep going with a feather.


On a side note, anyone interested in straight razors, learning how to use them, strop them, etc - please let me know. I will be making a few videos this weekend that we can host on the forum, and I am more than happy to hone up a new razor for you fellas gratis.

For the most part.... 90+% of the guys out there, and on the forum - I would say steer clear of a straight razor. It isn't necessarily all that difficult to learn how to do, and it is quite safe when done correctly, however the killer is the time investment, the equipment investment, and the patience. If you are the kinda guy that builds your own computer (and has had the same CPU tower since the beginning of time) and the word "disposable" isn't readily used in your home, then a straight razor might be for you.... but truth be told, it's fun, it's manly, it's neat, there is passion and a throwback to times of yore involved and so on and so forth (accomplishment and all that hubbub) but a DE razor is fun, super easy, safe, and inexpensive - and I'd say for 9.5 out of 10 guys out there, they'd enjoy the experience and the results of a DE or an Artist Club more. To each their own.

Anyone who wants to learn, and is willing to spend the time and money on mastering a straight - if you contact me for assistence, I will personally guide/help you along the process, and provided you don't quit - I guarantee success.... but as some of the fellas in this thread, and others have said... it can take YEARS sometimes to get better results. I've been shaving with 'em for 5 years - and even today, with a top quality $600+ straight razor, my best shave I would rate a 100, and my best shave with a DE (that I could accomplish within 3-4 weeks of starting out with a DE) I would rate at a 97 or so.

Can a straight give you a better shave? Yes.... but we aren't talking about a major jawdropping experience. Like for instance, is a Plisson HMW brush worth the $500+? Depends on the person. Will it provide better results than a $35 C&E best badger brush? Well.... yeah.... but it is hardly noticible.

If you get a baby's butt smooth shave with a DE.... it isn't going to be any smoother with a straight... I've just found straight razor shaves to have a little more lasting power (as far as smoothness goes) than DE BBS shaves, but really... a good shave is a good shave.

Thanks again for the thorough post, Joel. Given what you've written, I'm still game to learn how to use a straight razor. I have the temperament for it, have time on my hands, and I build my own computers. So I would love to see the videos you plan to make.

I've taken note of the vast difference between an Artist Club and a straight. And FWIW, I can drive both an automatic and a manual.

joel said:

.... but truth be told, it's fun, it's manly, it's neat, there is passion and a throwback to times of yore involved and so on and so forth (accomplishment and all that hubbub)

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Yep. Thats why I got into straight shaving.

The one thing I would say though is that I think you are overestimating the time that it takes to get superior straight shaves. I have been shaving (almost daily) with a straight for about a month now and my shaves are just as good as they are with a DE. In fact I would say they are slightly superior as I would always get a couple of small weepers on my upper lip when using a DE but not with a straight. It still takes me longer than I'd like to shave with a straight, and I still have much to learn in terms of honing, but the shave quality is the same or better.

moses said:

I've certainly seen plenty on Ebay that were honed down so far I was surprised someone kept using them for the last 1/4". Maybe they were used by a barber, though, although I can't imagine a barber using one that worn out. Or maybe someone was just crazy with their hone and honed 200 strokes once a week, whether it needed it or not.

-Mo

Edit: If you have as many as Joel, they should be good for 1000+

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I think most of those over-honed razors would be from a barber. They would shave people all day with the same razor and probably hone it every day. As long as the customers were happy then they would use them till they are turned into a toothpick. With all the knowledge put together in these forums we get so much more than the old barber down the street that you can hardly say anything about what you know. Joel's comments are spot on. I can only add that I enjoy some of the best shaves ever from razors that I paid from $5 to $20 on ebay. I am know spending more money on all the shaving products than I ever spent on the razors, hones and strops. Some day I to will go out and spend the big bucks for the TI, but for now I enjoy restoring and shaving with the old classics found everyday on ebay.

Glen

Another thumbs up to Joel!

I have been using a straight for just over a month now - shaving 7 days a week. I am making progress that improves the experience, but still have a way to go. For instance, shaving with the grain is pretty straightforward, shaving against the grain - a lot more tricky (in terms of technique). At first I looked like I was sword fighting the Invisible Man as I tried to get the blade into the correct position!

My shaves are the best I have experienced in nearly 40 years of shaving, and I must confess that I actually like all the ritual around honing and stropping. My honing, whilst not upto 'honemeister' level is getting better.

If you are going to go into straights, then you already have a head start by being on this Forum - I bought all the (wrong) kit before I found the Experts and ended up having to buy all the right kit!

hey joel thanks so much for the reply - you've answered many of my questions about using a straight. this stuff really is getting addictive - i have a feather AC on the way and i'm already talkin about getting a straight (what the hell is wrong with me?!) well i think i'll practice with the feather - work on technique, and then possibly make the investment in a straight razor.

thanks guys for all the words of wisdom

-KP

Lots of great advice here.

If you do go the straight route, be sure to have your first couple of razors honed by someone who knows what they're doing - Joel's offer to hone for free is very generous.

Lynn who hones for classicshaving and the person who hones for Tony are both also highly regarded.

This is highly addictive - I've only been at straight shaving for a month and I've already got 12 razors, a couple of sharpening stones, a collection of barber's hones and am looking to get a Belgian coticle. I've spent more in the past couple of months than I spent on shaving gear in the past 5 years!

As for the shave, its getting better day by day, but I still need to do a little touch up here and there with a safety razor some days so that I'm satisfied that I'm well shaved enough for the office. I'm finally at the point where I can, on a good day, get a good enough shave that I don't need to touch up with the safety razor.

As for strops, I've used the TI padle strop and Tony's paddle just puts it to shame. I've also used a Dovo strop and Tony's hanging stops are miles better.

As for razors, you can go new or buy a shave ready razor from one of the folks who sell them on SRP - I got one of my favourite razors for about $35. As for razors, if you have a heavier beard/coarser hair, you might like the TI le Gnome as its a 1/2 hollow which is a heavier grind and (for me) the heavier grinds seem to do a little better than my full hollows (not trying to confuse things by talking about grinds). I'm actually considering getting one myself as they offer great value for a high quality, no frills razor that will provide a good shave.

As the posts above illustrate, going the traditional straight route is a lot more complicated/expensive than the feather. Having to maintain your razor adds several variables and there are more moving parts to gettting a good straight shave than is the case with the Feather.

That having been said, when I decided I wanted to make the switch from the DE, I didn't even consider the Feather and jumped right into straights. The satisfaction of gradually improving your shaving, honing, stropping technique is (for me) worth it. I now have one vintage razor that I've managed to bring up to shaving sharpness on my own - a minor accomplishment that is a major source of pride.

While my shaves are not yet anywhere near as good as what I can get with a DE, I'm having a lot more fun!

Long post, but hope it helps.