Knives, For Cooking That Is

danek said:

Is that a litteral translation?!? DAMN, I've been using a girl's knife?

Actually, I don't think I'd buy the santoku shape again. Coming from a chef's style a couple of years ago, I think I prefer that shape. The sharper point seems to provide a little more precision for me.

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Some of the resentment towards the santoku stems from the shameless plugging at the hands of the Rachael Ray's of the world. It's a pretty good vegetable knife, but the lack of belly (and length) makes ita poor substitute for a chef's knife. It's sort of a mini cleaver, and the shape was derived from the ancient kamagata usuba, shown below.

ouch said:

I plugged "santoku" into bablefish. It returned "girl's knife".

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Then stick a bow on me and call me princess, because I'm sticking with my santoku.

This is my main knife, but like I said, the next one I buy is going to be a chef's shape.

A set doesn't have to be a bad way to go or a waste of money.

I had an old US made Chicago Cutlery set for years, and it was OK but the wooden handles started to show signs of age and abuse...my wife thinks the world should go in the dishwasher...

After poking around the looking for some knives that wouldn't kill the family budget I settled on an 8 piece set from Forschner with the Fibrox handles , based on a lot of positive reviews. I'd tried some forged knives and liked them, and was hesitant to go stamped but the Forschner name kept turning up as a being a great value.

Having lived with them for a year, I can say they are marked improvement on what I had before. As others have pointed out, there are some knives that get used more than others, but the knives are well chosen for most kitchens, I think.

The 8" chef is the workhorse, and if I could only have one it would be this knife. The 10" slicer rarely gets used. The 4" rabbit (paring) knife is a daily performer, the 6" boning knife is nice to have as is the 8" bread knife. The kitchen shears get heavy use. I use the 10" steel as needed.

In short, for $100 I got a lot of bang for the buck and only one "clunker" knife, the slicer, and even it gets used a few times a year when I'm doing a turkey or roast, or for slicing up beef ribs. I added a Montana Knife Works 8" Santoku (a "what the Hell, it's cheap" purchase at a CostCo sale) that gets used when the wife is hogging the Chef's knife when we are both doing prep and a 3" Forschner flexible paring knife the wife wanted.

I don't think this kit will make anybody who has topflight custom or forged knives drop what they have, but several guests who have tried them have been favorably impressed, and my wife now takes the knives she'll need with her if she'll be working out of our kitchen rather than chance having to make do with something else.

Dennis said:

I offer up Victorinox Forschner knives as inexpensive and high quality

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+1 on these knives ... they get excellent reviews from home cooks and pros alike. I've been wanting a set for years. I can order them from Amazon, except I wanted to see 'em in person before I bought them online. But I can't find them in any BnM stores.

You can get 9 Victorinox knives (i.e. Chef+Utility+Paring, 6 Steaks) for around $100.

I think a Gyuto is a nice all round knife.

I use this beauty together with a chef's knife and an office knife:

If you decide to spend a whack on quality japanese/german knives, you need to be able to hone them properly on stones, otherwise once they start to dull they will be pretty redundant & no better than a cheap knife. This is a worthwhile skill to learn(if you can't already). I always recommend the victorinox knives to home cooks, I think they are excellent value & get the job done. I still use one thats about 10 years old for heavier tasks when I'm worried about damaging my more expensive knives. Like splitting lobsters for example. The blade on the Victorinox is still in great condition & takes a good edge, its more than sharp enough for general use. May I also recommend MAC knives, they have an inexpensive line called superior, I use the 8'' utility knife over any of my other knives daily.

I would start out with a qualty chef's knife (8-10"). a serrated edge, and a parer from a quality mfg like Sabatier, Wusthof... and a steel to keep them sharp. Hand wash the knives only. Add more knives as needed.

I know nothing about knives but I recently bought some Cutco knives. A colleague of mine told me his son was home from college for the summer and was working for Cutco selling knives and asked me if he could set up an appointment with me at my home.

His son appeared at the appointed hour, did a very nice presentation of Cutco's wares and I purchased several items. They seem to be very nice and I am happy with them.

Not up to Jay's standard but they can cut through a loaf of Italian bread like nobody's business.

wimbouman said:

I think a Gyuto is a nice all round knife.

I use this beauty together with a chef's knife and an office knife:

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That's not a gyuto. That's a wa-gyuto.

I have a couple of the Forschner stamped kitchen knives, and find them just OK. Whatever steel they use, I have found it doesn't hold an edge as well as I would like. Granted, the kitchen is a tough environment for a knife, but I feel it should be better anyway- after using them a few times the edge has significantly degraded, and no, using a steel doesn't help. Back to the Spyderco Sharpmaker they go. If it won't shave arm hair, it's dangerous in the kitchen by my standards- slipping all over vegetables. That said, they were much cheaper than higher-end stuff, and appear to be otherwise holding up well after several years of use. No chipping on the edge, handles are still tight, etc. I suppose you get what you pay for, and these are probably the upper tier of the lower end. Whatever you do, DON'T buy those crappy 'Chef Tony' infomercial brands. A relative got them for us and they were GREAT... for about six months, at which point they began to literally fall apart during use- a couple of blades broke! The others had the serrations bending and breaking off over time, something a real knife would NEVER do. Any knife that claims it 'never' has to be sharpened... I would never buy.

I remember reading an article somewhere that a lot of kitchen knives, even some high end ones, have softer steel in them to appeal to a wider variety of consumers- easier to sharpen and stainless to stay pretty. I can't speak to which brands, only that after using mine and several relatives brands, I would say there might be something to that. Anyone know of brands/ steel styles/ that hold their edges better?

You need to research Japanese knives, everything that is not made in Japan or some custom makers (very expensive) is 99% junk.
A nice place to look for block sets
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/tojiro8pcset.html

this is actually one of the really good basic brands to use.

ouch said:

That's not a gyuto. That's a wa-gyuto.

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meh nitpicking here.. the difference is the handle style and a presence a bolster on most western handled guytos.

All of these suggestions on japanese knives are right on but I must say that 300 dollar budget gets tossed out the window with just one knife...

Block sets are made up to give the most value..On some of those Henkels sets you can purchase a block set with just a few more bux than the chef knife alone..
I bought these http://www.target.com/metal-end-cap...&searchSize=30&id=metal end cap Henckels logo

The chef knife alone goes for 100 bux.. And these are forged knives not stamped metal, entry level pro's...
And best of all I went to Target to find them as there not sold online.. Well the very last set was complete but with a torn up box... I asked for another and was told it was the last, but they offered it to me at open box/damaged price...
Well for 119.99 I couldn't say no.....
They're fantastic...Well worth the money.. you can always do better but there is a point of diminishing returns on knives..If I made a living as a chef Id have the thousand dollar beautys but since all I need to do is occasionally carve up a carcass these will do more than well enough...
Of coarse youll have to determine what floats your boat....
Regards
elo

elosamurai said:

All of these suggestions on japanese knives are right on but I must say that 300 dollar budget gets tossed out the window with just one knife...

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The most frequently recommended Japanese gyuto here is the Tojiro DP series which is far less than $300. I bought mine for about $50 a couple years back but I think they have gone up a little since then. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Tam drops $300 on one knife thus the suggestions for a wide range of knives from Japanese to stamped commercial.

Cooks' Illustrated offers practical advice on choosing kitchen knives. Opinions abound, but you cannot go wrong with Victorinox, Chicago Cutlery, and Dexter knives if you're economy-minded.
There's a lot of hooplah over the sankuto shape. I finally bought one and found it far less useful then a chef's knife/gyoto. If you aren't familiar with these knives, I'd say to buy an economical one PRIOR to spending more on a top-notch model. Blade length, weight, and style all make a big difference in how a knife *feels*. Ideally, try one out on a range of tasks.

A lot of it depends on how much you cook (and of course how much you like it). I would direct the serious home cook to the Japanese suggestions above, but if you are the casual type, cheap Victorinox stamped blades work very well.

For me, my arsenal of Japanese steel gives me no end of pleasure.

A lot of the German and French knives are quite heavy. I prefer the lighter Japanese style Globals. They use a similar alloy as the Shuns, with Chromium, Vanadium, and Molybdenum. This makes a very hard steel that keeps a very sharp edge for a long time.

Here's a picture of my very favorite knife:


It's about $100, but it's useful for just about anything.

Here's a pretty nice set that I got as a present:
Knife set at Amazon

It's going for about $415 now.


As for maintaining them, you should get a ceramic hone like this one:


Never use a grooved steel on good knives. They remove material and that's not what you want for daily or weekly honing. All you want to do is straighten the cutting edge.

For twice yearly sharpening, in which you remove material, a Japanese waterstone is great. These synthetic ones will probably last a home user forever:


This may seem like a lot, but you really don't need it all at once. My dad and I traded knives and knife accessories as gifts for about 5 years and that was great! The upfront cost is relatively high, but it ends up costing the same or less than set after set of crappy knives over the years.

I have gotten good deals from cutleryandmore.com and Amazon has some pretty fantastic prices sometimes.

tsmba said:

Cooks' Illustrated offers practical advice on choosing kitchen knives. Opinions abound, but you cannot go wrong with Victorinox, Chicago Cutlery, and Dexter knives if you're economy-minded.
There's a lot of hooplah over the sankuto shape. I finally bought one and found it far less useful then a chef's knife/gyoto. If you aren't familiar with these knives, I'd say to buy an economical one PRIOR to spending more on a top-notch model. Blade length, weight, and style all make a big difference in how a knife *feels*. Ideally, try one out on a range of tasks.

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chicago cutlery is one of the worst brands one can buy. I still cant sharpen mine to even be decent. My Japanese knives can shave on the other hand.

Scotto said:

A lot of it depends on how much you cook (and of course how much you like it). I would direct the serious home cook to the Japanese suggestions above, but if you are the casual type, cheap Victorinox stamped blades work very well.

For me, my arsenal of Japanese steel gives me no end of pleasure.

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Cutting to the chase, this is good advice.

In fact, I have some inexpensive western knives, some moderately priced Japanese knives, and some expensive Porsche knives that I got as a gift (sort of a fusion between western and Japanese knives in terms of construction and geometry).

Properly sharpened and maintained, any of these would be more than adaquate for my needs (and I do a fair bit of cooking).

I also agree that the two knives you should have are a chef's knife (or Japanese gyuto) and a paring knife. I have other knives, but these are the ones that get used regularly. Sets are a complete waste of money.

If you don't do a lot of cooking or just don't want to break the bank, find a shop or online vendor that caters to the food service industry and pick up a Forschner, Henckles or Mundial chef's knife (the last has just been praised in a cooking rag as one of the best knives under $20). These are all stamped knives with molded plastic handles that will run you between $20 or $30. Buy at least an 8" knife as anything smaller is a waste of time since. As stated above, they are certainly not the hardest steel or prettiest knives out there, but they are perfectly fine for the average home cook and represent AMAZING value for the money.

In terms of entry level Japanese knives, the Tojiro DP knives are very good value - Korin also often has sales.

If you want to go top shelf, then the sky's the limit, but in terms of western knives, Sabatier and Wustoff are my favourites (but that's just personal preference and there are many other good makers out there).

In short, if I could start from scratch and had to keep it minimal and on a limited budget, I'd by an inexpensive 10" chef's knife, a Forschner paring knife, a Tojiro DP gyuto, a CCK cleaver (not necessary, but nice for the tough stuff), an inexpensive (i.e., Forschner or Mundial) bread knife. The only other addition I see as necessary is a ceramic steel.

I could get all of these for around $170. If you cut out the cleaver and Japanese knife, you're down to around $100 for a set up that will serve you well for years if properly maintained. The only other additions you might want to consider would be an inexpensive tomato knife and boning knife - which you can get for about $30 for both.

Hope this helps.