Tour De France

[Brodirt]

Is anyone else watching?

If so, what do you think? Are you a cycling fan, a general sports fan or a Lance fan?

All Lance all the time got old very fast, but I gotta admit...the old guy still has something in the tank. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't rooting for him

The HD coverage is spectacular as well.

[TinFish]

I think it would be a big mistake to count out Lance as a serious contender. I'm also rooting for him to win #8.

Now if Lemond would come out of retirement, that would really be something to root for.
Go old guys! (well older guys)

[Muirtach]

Lemond is pretty dang old, but he's full of great info and a gentleman too boot.

Been watching everyday. Easy when you have no job and spend your time restoring a stack of razors and making scales (just myself now). Been some great riding so far and the race is just picking up. I'm personally a huge Cavendish fan, though I like many others. Not to win of, but for some great stages and sprinting.

[Shane]

Three words sum it up for me: GO LANCE GO!

[moonshine44]

The strategizing is very interesting. It's also pretty impressive how the yellow jersey can change hands to quickly. Contador did an amazing job of hammering off the front of the peloton today...

[King of Kailua]

Three words sum it up for me: GO LANCE GO!

Hell's yah!

The saddest thing I've seen lately (today) was some fox news pundit show with this cretin of a "sports pundit" totally denouncing lance and accusing him of being doped for The Tour. He railed on the race, on cycling, and on Lance. Sad stuff.

I'm a big fan and watch every stage I can. You can follow Lance's tweets for his own updates .. @lancearmstrong

[rm71]

I'm no expert on cycling but I look forward to watching the event every year. Go Cadel Evans!

[redbike]

Serious TdF fan here. I was a LA supporter back in his winning days. His comeback from retirement has been impressive; he clearly has many strong miles left to pedal. But his comeback has clearly interrupted Contador's plan to win the Tour this year. It's made for a difficult situation within the team, which appears to have shifted its allegiance to Armstrong. Contador's finish yesterday was very impressive; the non-Astana GC contenders could absolutely not stay with him. As for what happens between Armstrong and Contador: let the road decide.

jim

[Brodirt]

Lemond is pretty dang old, but he's full of great info and a gentleman too boot.

I'm not surprised your a fan, being from Reno and all, but Greg has become a bit off kilter in his retrement and I don't know if you can consider him a gentleman anymore.


Serious TdF fan here. I was a LA supporter back in his winning days. His comeback from retirement has been impressive; he clearly has many strong miles left to pedal. But his comeback has clearly interrupted Contador's plan to win the Tour this year. It's made for a difficult situation within the team, which appears to have shifted its allegiance to Armstrong. Contador's finish yesterday was very impressive; the non-Astana GC contenders could absolutely not stay with him. As for what happens between Armstrong and Contador: let the road decide.

jim

We could be watching Lemond Hinault part deux here with Lance and Alberto. In my opinion AC is the stronger rider but I think its not so far apart that Lance cant have a go at him. I also think all of the team drama, with Astana likely splitting up after the tour and LA starting his own team, probably Nike-Livestrong co-sponsored, has given LA an inside edge. I suspect that along with Levi LA has lined up some Columbia HTC and Saxo Bank riders for the new team, and he has some alilies who would otherwise be enemies out on the road. We saw it in the stage 4 split when Columbia and Saxo where working hard even with LA on board.

[redbike]

We could be watching Lemond Hinault part deux here with Lance and Alberto. In my opinion AC is the stronger rider but I think its not so far apart that Lance cant have a go at him. I also think all of the team drama, with Astana likely splitting up after the tour and LA starting his own team, probably Nike-Livestrong co-sponsored, has given LA an inside edge. I suspect that along with Levi LA has lined up some Columbia HTC and Saxo Bank riders for the new team, and he has some alilies who would otherwise be enemies out on the road. We saw it in the stage 4 split when Columbia and Saxo where working hard even with LA on board.

I do think Contador threw out the Astana team plan yesterday, which he rightly felt hindered him and benefited Armstrong. Contador seems very strong right now; the question is whether he can keep that level for the next two weeks against what I think will be an Armstrong counter.

[Muirtach]

I'm not surprised your a fan, being from Reno and all, but Greg has become a bit off kilter in his retrement and I don't know if you can consider him a gentleman anymore. True, last time I actually spoke to him was about 12 years ago at my HS graduation. His nephews are good friends of mine and the older was a classmate. He has really deteriorated since then according to all accounts.




We could be watching Lemond Hinault part deux here with Lance and Alberto. In my opinion AC is the stronger rider but I think its not so far apart that Lance cant have a go at him. I also think all of the team drama, with Astana likely splitting up after the tour and LA starting his own team, probably Nike-Livestrong co-sponsored, has given LA an inside edge. I suspect that along with Levi LA has lined up some Columbia HTC and Saxo Bank riders for the new team, and he has some alilies who would otherwise be enemies out on the road. We saw it in the stage 4 split when Columbia and Saxo where working hard even with LA on board.
I really wonder what Bruyneel is telling the guys on the road and off. Almost feels like the initial plan has been dropped and new plans are being played with each day. That or he's got something up his sleeve to blindside everyone with.

[Axel_]

I'm cycling a lot myself, but I'm not as interrested in the sport itself. I think their is way too much cheating to make it fun to watch. But if we shall talk about le TDF, I hope that Lance will make his 8th victory. Of course ony if he's clean wich I have my doubt about unfortunatley.

//Axel

[Mr. Clean]

Not much Tour coverage on network TV :frown: Gotta pull for Armstrong, he's a Metromess guy, but old he's not.

LeMond is not quite old yet either. :smile: Brodirt, what behaviors do you consider off kilter that would bring into question his being a gentleman? I hardly ever see anything about him (don't ready cycling mags anymore).

[Obsessed]

I think it's an awesome event, but I don't know enough about cycling to really follow it closely.

[Brodirt]

Brodirt, what behaviors do you consider off kilter that would bring into question his being a gentleman? I hardly ever see anything about him (don't ready cycling mags anymore).

He's been hounding Armstrong for years calling him a drug cheat. Showing up at press conferences uninvited for the purpose of calling Lance out as a drug cheat. He has pretty much treated the rest of the peloton the same way as well, but hasn't named names like he did with Lance. He has ignored the amphetamine/testosterone/blood doping era that he rode in and says the drug era started his downfall...alleging that only the current forms of doping which he describes as "oxygen carrying," but what is really just blood doping without a need for all the centrifuges and storage capacity, has made the sport unfair. He says he was still fit and able to win when "all of a sudden" these guys who he was formerly able to smash were riding him off his wheel.

He is in short living in denial of his own athletic mortality.

The behavior became so odd that Trek, who owns Lemond cycles, and is pretty much partnered with Armstrong had to sue him for insubordination in their contract. Trek felt that his erratic, unpredictable behavior was damaging the value of the marque that Lemond had sold them. Lemond, of course, argued that it was all a sham, that he was telling the truth and that Trek was suing him to protect Lance and to shut him, Lemond, up.

Its sad really.

[Kratos]

That is sad. I see why everyone singles Lance out, but it's not fair. He's not doing anything anybody else at the top of the sport isn't. Bunch o' hypocrites. You can't just demand "justice" against those you don't like.

[Muirtach]

LeMond is not quite old yet either. :smile: Brodirt, what behaviors do you consider off kilter that would bring into question his being a gentleman? I hardly ever see anything about him (don't ready cycling mags anymore).
Old for racing at that level. In addtion to Brodirt's comments the guy has been self destructing the last decade or so to the point you would think he was a Brat Pack member.

[King of Kailua]

Huh, I gues that crazed pundit I saw on Fox was LeMond. What a shame. :frown:

[King of Kailua]

Here's Lance talking with Robin Williams after todays stage (http://tinyurl.com/m6q39f) :biggrin:

[TimmyBoston]

I'm pulling for Lance. He's done so many great things on and off a bike.

[King of Kailua]

Cadel Evans tweet after Stage 14 today:

"@CadelOfficial: Riding #tdf stage today; I could not believe my eyes: Corpse on roadside.... I COULD NOT believe my eyes.... "

One women dead and two injured by a policeman's motorcycle during todays Tour de France Stage 14. Link (http://www.cnn.com/2009/SPORT/07/18/tour.france.armstrong.hincapie.death/index.html?eref=rss_topstories)

American Hincapie denied the yellow jersey by charging team Garmin. The Italian, Nocentini holds on to it for another stage.

[talibeard]

I am from Urp so the tour can be seen from minute to minute live..
The old man (Lance) is doing great and since there are no serious Dutch contenders it might be nice if he was able to take another victory.

I do think it is gonna be his last Tour; he wins and won't risk again or he looses and doesn't want to be the old guy that just doesn't have it anymore.
But anyway, he does spice things up and I am following the Tour and Lance closely!

[King of Kailua]

I am following the Tour and Lance closely!

I'm watching daily stage coverage on Versus network here in the U.S. This was an interesting stage today. Lance dropped to 4th from 3rd, and Levi Lance's teammate, is out of the Tour now with a fractured wrist. Levi is a big time puller for Team Astana and with the so called drama in Astana (real or media inspired?) Contador is probably the strongest puller for the team that is left. I hope it doesn't screw with Lances head. He seem cool as a cucumber though.

Sad news about the death on the roadside today. :frown:

The Alps await!

Go Lance!

[Brodirt]

Semi-spoiler alert.

For those who wrote off the old guy after Sunday, what did you think about the power on display today?

I'm thinking that the man is looking to take back some time on the ITT and then showdown on Ventoux, a climb that owes him something.

He is announcing a team change for 2010 on Thursday, after the ITT, and Johan Bruyneel was hinting today that he is going along with him, and Friday being a sprinters day...maybe, just maybe, the old Machiavellian is back.

Also, one of my favorite riders, Jens Voigt, hardest of the hard men, took a nasty fall today, lets hope he is ok.

[King of Kailua]

Jens Voigt, hardest of the hard men, took a nasty fall today, lets hope he is ok.

That was a seriously nasty spill on the road for Jens. I hope his head is ok, he really planted his face into the pavement. I hope he is ok and his skull is not fractured. I cannot imagine what a fall like that would be like wearing the old style black "tube pad" style helmets.

I'll be yelling at my TV in support of Lance tomorrow. He gave a great effort to reach the front. "The kids" couldn't stay with his rear wheel on that one. Hopefully he's thinking "I've got your back Contador, I've got your back....Ha! I'VE GOT YOUR FRONT!"

[Chicken Enchilada]

Jens Voigt, hardest of the hard men, took a nasty fall today, lets hope he is ok.
It makes me cringe every time somebody falls like that. At least no one has fallen off the side of the mountain so far.

It was amazing when Lance crossed the gap all by himself. Can't wait to see what he's going to do in the rest of the Tour.

[RazorDingo]

It was amazing when Lance crossed the gap all by himself.

This has been a fascinating Tour so far. I really cannot tell which rider (Contador or Armstrong) Astana/Bruyneel see as the leader of Astana.

For one, I've been somewhat amazed at how strongly Armstrong has ridden so far in the Tour. Obviously he no longer dominates the time trial the way he did pre-retirement. And he lost a surprising amount of time to Contador on Sunday.

But will Armstrong be content to finish his days in the TdF as a mere domestique? Is he going to be satisfied with a second place podium position in Paris? Will this be enough to satisfy those critics who accused him of doping during his previous Tour career? Or are Bruyneel and Armstrong playing a much deeper game - satisfied that having (at least) two riders at the top of the GC will put that much more pressure on the other teams?

I was very skeptical of Armstrong returning to the TdF this year. But I'll admit his return has made a tremendous difference to my enjoyment of the race so far.

[Brodirt]

Or are Bruyneel and Armstrong playing a much deeper game

Its right there...I think the game is how Johan and Lance can race this TDF for the win and their new team without violating their contracts or without dishonoring themselves and the sport.

I think that Frank and Andy Schleck are pawns in this game and they dont even know it.

The gap that was allowed to go today convinced me of it...LA clearly had what it takes to deal with most of what is thrown at him, just not the short, sharp attack like at Arcalis last week, but he allowed the gap to go and allowed the Schleck brothers to put a little hurting onto Contador. LA was letting his opponents soften his enemy for him and maybe making the race easier for the taking.

Tomorrow isn't a mountain top finish so I think they will ride to a stalemate, then the ITT where the Schlecks will fall aside and we will see if AC has really become a top TTer and if Brad Wiggins, who I can't say I'm not rooting for either, can still be a great TTer with the weight loss.

If LA can take back some time in the ITT, I think he will attack everyone on Ventoux. Ventoux suits LAs capabilities more than do shorter steeper climbs.

Anyway, its been a very intriguing show.

[Chicken Enchilada]

Its right there...I think the game is how Johan and Lance can race this TDF for the win and their new team without violating their contracts or without dishonoring themselves and the sport.

I was thinking the same thing. After today's race we can see that Lance still has it in him. He has constantly been saying how it's all about the team, and on Sunday he pretty much said the win wasn't likely for him, but I think he has something up his sleeve. We'll see.

[SRock]

No disrespect to any Tour fans, but if it weren't for the heroic efforts (strictly speaking race effort) of Lance Armstrong I'm not sure I'd even follow the race. If he pulls this one off I hope he retires a winner. There is nothing more sad than the old guy that just doesn't know when to quite.

[the beav]

I'm no expert on the bicycling, but to me anyone who can finish the Tour is a winner. Although I began watching a few years ago because of Lance, whether he's there or not is irrelevant to me now as I'm rooting for anyone who puts his heart into the race. I'm happy for the winner of each stage no matter what country he comes from and feel sorry for those that have to drop out due to accidents and such. It's a great sport with lots of drama and my best wishes go out to all the teams.

[redbike]

Armstrong certainly was impressive today, but unless Contador falters and Armstrong is able to gain back the time he lost, I don't think he'll win his eighth TdF. That said, this Tour is not over by a long shot. Wiggins is climbing extraordinarily well and will likely do very well in the ITT Thursday. It's Astana's Tour to lose; they have a real chance of taking all three podium slots, if Kloden gains a bit on Wiggins.

[SRock]

I'm no expert on the bicycling, but to me anyone who can finish the Tour is a winner.

Indeed, just finishing is a feat not for mere mortals.

[wilsonent]

I enjoyed this race as much as any I can rember. The races usually were ending during my lunch time, so I got to see some pretty much every day.

Alberto Contador is the man. It seems he has an extre gear he can pull up that no one else can match near the top of the mountain stages.

Lance is still up at the top of the world bikers, unbelievable performance.

Loved the drama between the two, just made it more interesting to watch.

The Schleck brothers (sp?) are going to be at the top of the game for years to come.

I just rode 111 miles this past week over 4 different rides, and that is good for me. To race more than that distance daily for 3 weeks is simply unreal.

[koso]

For Lance, who had lain out for four years, and with the broken collar bone weeks before the Tour started, to finish third, is a great achievement.

Lance performed at this level in the modern, intense anti-doping era. Must be a real finger in the eye to the French haters.

They never could seem to understand that he is naturally a specimen mere mortals have to dope to approach.

Next year: 8.

[Brodirt]

The result for LA is the best possible outcome.

[the beav]

I was glad to see Thor H get the green jersey.

I can't wait to see who is on the Radio Shack team next year. I expect Hincapie to be there but not Contador. Seems like I heard on TV today that he and Lance won't be on the same team.

[King of Kailua]

Here's a picture from Lance after todays final stage. (http://twitpic.com/brat7)

Two of the worlds greatest cyclists together chewing the fat and drinking some wine after the TdF09. Congratulations Lance! I'm looking forward to seeing Team RadioShack/Livestrong. Riding Eddy Merckx bikes (http://www.eddymerckx.be/EXEN/site/index.aspx) maybe?

[Bushranger]

I'm a fan of the big tours. Such an intriguing sport. True, Slagle is also correct with his comments on Armstrong bringing viewers to the sport. Though I am not an Armstrong fan there is no doubt for the race he plans for he succeeds, and succeeds in bringing new people to the events. Highlights for me were Horshvold's mountain run after the insult by Cavendish, Hausman's Colmar win in the rain, HIncape getting on with it after horrible smash (shame astarna LA attacked costing him the yellow), Cavendish's stage win before making amends with Horshvold, the leading cyclists such as Mark Renshaw, Super Domestiques Stu Grady, etc. The Schleck brothers, and Contador. WOW. I enjoyed his run in with the Schlecks. I could not ever see LA do that. So many highlights, good and bad.

Radio shack witha team built solely for LA will be amazing next year. Some big players will not go into the Giro, and other tours, but like LA has always done....plan and race for ONLY the TdF. For me, LA is an amazing rider. For some I understand he IS TdF, but for me his is not. It's great to have him around, and even better for the new people he brings to the event and sport, and the competition both physical and psychological. 2010 TdF will be crackerjack!

[Kratos]

For Lance, who had lain out for four years, and with the broken collar bone weeks before the Tour started, to finish third, is a great achievement.

Lance performed at this level in the modern, intense anti-doping era. Must be a real finger in the eye to the French haters.

They never could seem to understand that he is naturally a specimen mere mortals have to dope to approach.

Next year: 8.

You really think this is true? Other people performed just as well(better, in fact). LA was just singled out because he was winning a lot, and therefore the biggest target. They were likely ALL doping, if they were winning. He wasn't doing anything the other cyclists weren't. I'm not saying these guys aren't spectacular athletes, but it's not realistic to think everybody doped but Lance.

[Brodirt]

You really think this is true? Other people performed just as well(better, in fact). LA was just singled out because he was winning a lot, and therefore the biggest target. They were likely ALL doping, if they were winning. He wasn't doing anything the other cyclists weren't. I'm not saying these guys aren't spectacular athletes, but it's not realistic to think everybody doped but Lance.

I am friendly with a former Euro-pro racer, team manager and race promoter. While not close enough to disclose dirty specific details he has described a circumstance to me that seems to make a lot of sense. He says that within the peloton the playing field is level. Everyone knows if and what everyone else is capable of and how they came to be that way and they sort things out amongst themselves.

For example, and by this example I am not suggesting that any of these riders are doping, Fabian Cancellara crushes most ITTs and can compete and win one day races that are "power" races, meaning not mountainous and not flat...with hills that are short, steep and plentiful. He knows who his competition is in those events and those who wish to compete against him know who they are and what they have to do to get that way, however hey choose to do so.

The playing field gets tilted in 2 ways though. First when you have guys who so enhance themselves that they are doing things that they otherwise shouldn't be doing. In my opinion the stage 19 ITT in this years TDF is such a result. Contador has no business beating Fabian Cancellara in a relatively flat ITT. For a historical example of such a result look at the final ITT in the 2005 Vuelta when Roberto Heras (a rider just like Contador) came in second in the final ITT losing by only 3 seconds and beating a great ITTer in Denis Menchov. So, Heras, of course, was found to have been doped to the hilt on EPO and DQed.

Second, and this is the worse scenario, is where the organizers pick and choose who will win and who will be found to have been doped. I hate this BS and it goes on now and has gone on for years.

My example, and tin-foil hat theory, on this goes back to the 2007 TDF and Floyd Landis. I suspect that the TDF organizers punished him not for winning while taking testosterone (which by the way is meaningless in comparison to the EPO derivatives) but rather for refusing to roll on Lance Armstrong.

There is a story that is true about an IM conversation had between Landis and Jonathan Vaughters (now manager for Garmin) about a picture that Landis apparently had of the method that Lance used to dope and to outwit the testers. The IM transcript was actually produced as evidence in a law suit. So the story goes that Vaughters asked Landis if he had destroyed the picture of the motorcycle with the secret refrigerated panniers that Lance had come to him with stored samples of his blood at strategic stages of the TDF. It would come in over the border of another country at a location not suspicious, bring LA his stored blood which he would transfuse overnight before a pivotal mountain or ITT and then disappear again to return with a new supply when needed.

Landis and Vaughters had a big laugh by IM, but Floyd did not acknowledge either possessing the picture or destroying it. Today they both admit to having had the conversation but say that they were both just joking about the craziness of conspiracy theorists desire to take down LA.

Well, I suspect that they singled out Landis in 2007 because they wanted him to give up the info on Lance and he refused. So they took him out.

If I were a betting man I would bet that when Lance fills out the roster for team Radioshack next year you will also find Floyd Landis back in the big leagues. LA might owe him a thing or two.

Anyway, I have read a lot on the topic of doping in sports, I can discuss cycling and doping for hours and hours, so I can't get going anymore right now.

[redbike]

I First when you have guys who so enhance themselves that they are doing things that they otherwise shouldn't be doing. In my opinion the stage 19 ITT in this years TDF is such a result. Contador has no business beating Fabian Cancellara in a relatively flat ITT.

Yeah, this stood out for me too. Contador has significantly improved his TT abilities, but to beat Cancellara seems a stretch. Cancellara is on record as saying that he thought Contador benefitted from riding in the slipstream of two motorcycles just ahead of him.

I really hope that the testing for this year proves negative, but would not be surprised with some postive results. Contador, especially, has a lot to lose if he is shown to have doped.

[Brodirt]

Since I am a gentleman I will reserve the words I would like to call these men for another place and time and simply comment that it doesn't take long for "stupid" people to open their mouths:


For the first time in years, the Tour de France ended without a single rider testing positive during the race. While all the results may not be in, there is cautious hope that the peloton is finally cleaning itself up after years of doping scandals. But the French Anti-doping Agency president Pierre Bordry is not convinced.
Bordry suspects that the riders are still engaging in autologous blood transfusions, he told Le Monde. The AFLD head also said he is "convinced that two new products have been used during the Tour, two drugs that are not yet on the market."


"My relationship with Lance Armstrong is zero," Contador said in Madrid, where he was given a hero's welcome.

"He is a great rider and has completed a great race but it is another thing on a personal level, where I have never had great admiration for him and I never will.
"On this Tour, the days in the hotel were harder than the those on the road.

"The situation was tense and delicate because the relationship between myself and Lance extended to the rest of the staff."

Contador, publicly criticised by Armstrong for ignoring team orders during the Tour, refused to be drawn on his future but it was unlikely to lie with his current team Astana.

"We'll have to see what happens," he said. "I don't know where I will go but it will clearly be with a team that is 100 per cent behind me."

[King of Kailua]

I think it's the nature of the sport of Cycling. Rivalries and doping scandals have been the norm for years. Take the Lemond and Fignon rivalry for example (although they were not on the same team). The no-love-lost story of Contador and Armstrong makes for good copy and it appears to promote the sport and venue. Lance carried himself well during The Tour and kept all the drama with the team behind close doors and expressed his intentions to ride as a team. Contador on the other hand is young and I can imagine a bit more passionate regarding his intentions. So be it. Lance knows this as well.

One of my favorite riders (climbers) who battled Armstrong on the Alps and Ventoux was Marco Pantani (http://www.grahamwatson.com/2004/pantani/coverpage.html). His career was unfortunately mired by allegations (rightly so) of doping and drug abuse which sadly culminated in his death by a massive overdose of cocaine in 2004. I'm not sure how I regard his career now. There's not much spoken about him these days because of the shadow of drug abuse, but he did offer some spectacular race footage during his lifetime. With the specter and shadow of drug abuse so prevalent in cycling I very much doubt that Landis would have a place on Armstrong's team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXPXHK7I1iQ&feature=related

[Brodirt]

I think it's the nature of the sport of Cycling. Rivalries and doping scandals have been the norm for years. Take the Lemond and Fignon rivalry for example (although they were not on the same team). The no-love-lost story of Contador and Armstrong makes for good copy and it appears to promote the sport and venue. Lance carried himself well during The Tour and kept all the drama with the team behind close doors and expressed his intentions to ride as a team. Contador on the other hand is young and I can imagine a bit more passionate regarding his intentions. So be it. Lance knows this as well.

One of my favorite riders (climbers) who battled Armstrong on the Alps and Ventoux was Marco Pantani (http://www.grahamwatson.com/2004/pantani/coverpage.html). His career was unfortunately mired by allegations (rightly so) of doping and drug abuse which sadly culminated in his death by a massive overdose of cocaine in 2004. I'm not sure how I regard his career now. There's not much spoken about him these days because of the shadow of drug abuse, but he did offer some spectacular race footage during his lifetime. With the specter and shadow of drug abuse so prevalent in cycling I very much doubt that Landis would have a place on Armstrong's team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXPXHK7I1iQ&feature=related

Yea, I know they are stirring the pot, but its comes across as being so petty.

As for Lemond, the rivalry was really more between him and Hinault, and they were on the same team. This year was just like that, but they acquitted themselves far better in the immediate time after the race and during their careers. The Fignon rivalry was more a result of the closesness of the '86 TDF...the closest ever. Its a shame...Fignon is dying from pancreatic cancer now and he believes it was due to PEDs. I hope he defies the odds and survives.

As for Pantani...I love him too. He might be my favorite cyclist ever despite the fact that he was pretty much doped to the gills. With him in a race you never knew what could happen, and I come back to my premise from above that the riders knew about the level playing field. I take nothing away from Pantani's performances because of PEDs, at his peak he was probably dealing with the most drug infused peloton in history. The guys from the early and mid-'90s were experimenting with EPO and really had little ability to handle it. There is an excellent book, in English, about Pantani. "The Death of Marco Pantani" by Matt Rendell. It brutally desribes the EPO culture from that time period as well...a very good read. http://www.amazon.com/Death-Marco-Pantani-Biography/dp/0753822032/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1248723145&sr=8-3

[King of Kailua]

As for Lemond, the rivalry was really more between him and Hinault..

I forgot all about Hinault! Yes, that would be the best late comparison with LA and AC.


Its a shame...Fignon is dying from pancreatic cancer now and he believes it was due to PEDs.

Another sad story of the effects of drugs in the sport :frown:


As for Pantani...I love him too. He might be my favorite cyclist ever despite the fact that he was pretty much doped to the gills...I take nothing away from Pantani's performances because of PEDs, at his peak he was probably dealing with the most drug infused peloton in history.

Even though I loved watching him race (particularly in the mountains) I am unsure how to come to terms with his legacy now. He inspired me so much in the peak of my riding/racing, and at the time as a young cyclist, I hadn't a clue about the extent of the doping in the field and how hopped up Pantani must have been. He's a very tragic figure for sure. Rendell's book will be in my hands in the near future.

[TorzJohnson]

Tour de France yeah baby! :w00t:

icaBGgeGeFQ

[King of Kailua]

Tour de France yeah baby! :w00t:

Woah, you got me all poppin' and lockin' :cool:

Hey>>> I'm trying desparately to find a copy of: A Sunday In Hell (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0193171/). Does anybody have a copy of this flick or know where I can get one. I love The Paris-Roubaix race and Eddy Merckx. I really want a copy of this film or at least a chance to see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB5a_H4k9sc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWTj6H2KKr4

[Brodirt]

Woah, you got me all poppin' and lockin' :cool:

Hey>>> I'm trying desparately to find a copy of: A Sunday In Hell (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0193171/). Does anybody have a copy of this flick or know where I can get one. I love The Paris-Roubaix race and Eddy Merckx. I really want a copy of this film or at least a chance to see it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB5a_H4k9sc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWTj6H2KKr4

I have it. I have "Cobbles, Baby" as well. A modern look at PR, good too, but no Merckx De Vlaeminck battle!

I used to like PR the best but have moved to Le Ronde as my favorite. The "bergs" make the race even harder in my view.

[King of Kailua]

I have it. I have "Cobbles, Baby" as well. A modern look at PR, good too, but no Merckx De Vlaeminck battle!

You are such a tease!!:eek:

Can you burn me a copy???

[Brodirt]

You are such a tease!!:eek:

Can you burn me a copy???

Cobbles sure...A Sunday in Hell is on VCR tape! I have a friend who I believe has it on DVD, if he does and I can get my hands on it I will do so. It would be nice to have it myself in readily viewable format!

You know how much of a Merckx fan I am? Here is my recently restored '92 Merckx replica of his '68 Giro winning bike...a Masi in his lesser famous Molteni colors, rather than the Colnago frames he road with Faema in the classic burnt orange!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/145/383199452_31adc954d1.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/165/383199456_273c82f85c.jpg

This was the frame in 2005 after 14 seasons and 50,000 or so miles!
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/112/296871693_33f1b827ba_o.jpg

Here's Eddy on his!
http://www.letour.fr/2009/PNC/COURSE/img/histoire_merckx_02.jpg

[King of Kailua]

((DroooooooL))

I've dreamed of building a classic Campy/Colnago orange EM bike. You are blowing my mind. If you can get me a copy of Cobbles and Sunday in Hell, I'll send you a Gillette superspeed in its case for trade!

[wilsonent]

Old for racing at that level. In addtion to Brodirt's comments the guy has been self destructing the last decade or so to the point you would think he was a Brat Pack member.

Once I read this post, I realized that I am self destructing too. Back hurts more, heartburn, hemorrhoids, hernia, you know, the multiple H's. The good book says ashes to ashes, dust to dust. I now realizes that process starts long before your underground.:wink2:

[Kratos]

Once I read this post, I realized that I am self destructing too. Back hurts more, heartburn, hemorrhoids, hernia, you know, the multiple H's. The good book says ashes to ashes, dust to dust. I now realizes that process starts long before your underground.:wink2:

You're right about that, but that's normal wear n' tear, my good man! When you are actively taking part in it, then it's self-detruction. And it's also mental. I wonder what long-term effects the EPO's have. I remember a couple guys died because they basically turned their blood into platelet-enriched yogurt.

[RazorDingo]

A couple of things I took away from this year's Tour:

1) The first year of High Definition coverage on Versus was fantastic. I always enjoy the French (Italian, Spanish, Swiss, etc.) scenery on the Tour. Seeing those Chateaux, Cols, etc. in HiDef was fantastic. One thing I DID also notice is how often the hi-def feed from the motorcycle cameras lost resolution. Not just the additional digital "artifacts" you get when the signal is weak - but literally when the amount of data overwhelmed the channels ability to carry it. It will be interesting to see how technology advances to overcome this limitation in the years to come.

2) I thought the "Chalkbot" was great. Someone came up with a way to combine grafitti and Twitter (two activities I generally frown upon...) into something positive.

3) The custom-created "Artist" bikes Lance Armstrong rode this year are amazing (http://www.trekbikes.com/us/en/stages/hirst/). I'll be curious at how much the Damien Hirst "Butterfly" bike sells for at auction.

[Brodirt]

((DroooooooL))

I've dreamed of building a classic Campy/Colnago orange EM bike. You are blowing my mind. If you can get me a copy of Cobbles and Sunday in Hell, I'll send you a Gillette superspeed in its case for trade!

It seems that in short order I was able to secure a copy of A Sunday in Hell as well as Hell on Wheels, the 2004 documentary about the Tmobile team and their campaign for the TDF that year.

I will burn them for you, keep your ss though...I have enough of them as well! I'm going to need a few days though...my buddy is going to drop them off to me on Thursday, so over the weekend PM me with your address.


You're right about that, but that's normal wear n' tear, my good man! When you are actively taking part in it, then it's self-detruction. And it's also mental. I wonder what long-term effects the EPO's have. I remember a couple guys died because they basically turned their blood into platelet-enriched yogurt.

Lemond wasn't likely doing EPO, maybe autologous blood transfusions, but I don't think that the injectable blood boosters were available during his career. He says EPO was rampant in the peloton in his very last year and that the difference was obvious as the nose on your face.

In my opinion if LA is doing anything its autologous blood transfusions. If you guys want to have a LOOOOONG conversation on the topic I'd be willing but I'm not sure I am convinced that I am against autologous blood transfusions or testosterone. All those two methods do is allow you to recover and perform at 100% day in and day out. In a 23 day event I think some sort of medical assistance, arguably, could be appropriate. The blood boosters and the speed based drugs are both too dangerous and allow you to go beyond what you could normally do...steroids are another issue altogether, they are probably the worst and most dangerous.

I had a conversation once with a very smart doctor, and cyclist, who said that there are PEDs, performance enhancing drugs, and PEDs, performance enabling drugs. The later is something like asthma medication for someone who could otherwise not breath. With the meds s/he performs at 100% and not beyond. Performance enhancers obviously allow you to be something you are not. So, if we are ok with medicating asthma to allow a cyclist to race at 100% why not allowing a cyclist to recover after a days racing with a Tgel rub? It makes sense to me.

Anyway, Kratos, the crap that went along with the early EPO use was said. Their blood would sludge up in their veins just like you mentioned. These guys had to have their alarm clocks set at night to ring every hour so they could get up and ride their bike on a trainer to get their heart rate up and blood moving so they wouldnt die of a heart attack. They would travel with portable centrifuges to test the haematocrit levels! Insane! This kind of stuff is the stuff that needs to be outlawed.

[Kratos]

Word up. That is insanity. Steroids ramp up recovery ability bigtime. This in itself is a huge advantage. They also allow you to work harder than if you were not on them. The blood transfusions I'm not as familiar with. It's all cheating, aside from the asthma thing.

And it's kind of up in the air, the 'roids vs the speed. Most ex-meth heads are a lot worse off than most ex-test users. Of course, the degrees of use are a bit different. There are actually reasonably responsible ways to juice up, unless you decide to pansy out and shred your liver with orals. They aren't the death-dealers they have been made out to be, but they aren't good for you. These days, it's often stacked with HGH, though. Especially in bodybuilding, which has imploded in on itself and is now just a freakshow, for the most part. Just T-gel, though, wouldn't be as bad as speed. It doesn't work for everybody though. Injection is usually the best method to reliably deliver the product.

[redbike]

Cyclingnews.com is reporting that Armstrong is trying to recruit Andy Schleck to Team Radio Shack. Sounds to me that Armstrong wants his new team to beat AC, even if he can't do it himself. All Team Radio Shack needs is a long TTT in next year's TdF, and they'll have a good margin over any team AC is on.

[Brodirt]

Cyclingnews.com is reporting that Armstrong is trying to recruit Andy Schleck to Team Radio Shack. Sounds to me that Armstrong wants his new team to beat AC, even if he can't do it himself. All Team Radio Shack needs is a long TTT in next year's TdF, and they'll have a good margin over any team AC is on.

Yea, I would have to imagine that unless AC goes to Garmin (also rumored) a TTT would be dominated by Team Radioshack, which is likely to look a lot like Discovery Channel did when they folded...minus AC.

I get the sense its going to be heavily populated with American and English speaking racers. Lance, Levi, Chris Horner are almost guarantees. I'd be willing to bet Floyd Landis (another great TTer) and Jeff Louder (from Bissell) will be brought on too. Maybe they can pull George Hincapie over from Columbia HTC but I dont think so. LA doesnt seem to do anything without Popovych either...that guy is cyclings mvp in my opinion.

Anyway, its certainly looking like its gonna be an equipment measuring session in 2010!

[redbike]

Yea, I would have to imagine that unless AC goes to Garmin (also rumored) a TTT would be dominated by Team Radioshack, which is likely to look a lot like Discovery Channel did when they folded...minus AC.

I get the sense its going to be heavily populated with American and English speaking racers. Lance, Levi, Chris Horner are almost guarantees. I'd be willing to bet Floyd Landis (another great TTer) and Jeff Louder (from Bissell) will be brought on too. Maybe they can pull George Hincapie over from Columbia HTC but I dont think so. LA doesnt seem to do anything without Popovych either...that guy is cyclings mvp in my opinion.

Anyway, its certainly looking like its gonna be an equipment measuring session in 2010!

Not including it would level the playing field in next year's TdF, and make for a more competitive race. That's what I'd like to see. I'd also like to see AC leave Astana and land with a team that will unequivocally support his GC campaign.

[Brodirt]

Not including it would level the playing field in next year's TdF, and make for a more competitive race. That's what I'd like to see. I'd also like to see AC leave Astana and land with a team that will unequivocally support his GC campaign.

But it is such a beautiful event...I am doing one on Saturday in fact. A mixed team of 3 for 14.2 hilly miles. Myself, another masters (but 35+) gentleman, and a 40 something woman doing one for her first time! I am racing the ITT and then the TTT. The woman on the team was looking for a goal event for July so the two of us men challenged her. We will go slower with her for sure, but who cares...it will be so much fun and such a challenge for her.

[koso]

You really think this is true? Other people performed just as well(better, in fact). LA was just singled out because he was winning a lot, and therefore the biggest target. They were likely ALL doping, if they were winning. He wasn't doing anything the other cyclists weren't. I'm not saying these guys aren't spectacular athletes, but it's not realistic to think everybody doped but Lance.

I didn't say that, I was making more of a blanket statement.

What I meant was, his V02 Max is 85, among the highest ever recorded. His lactic acid production is extremely low. He is the only human known to have increased his muscle efficiency through training.
(http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0722_050722_armstrong.html)

So maybe he didn't do anything others didn't do. But he does it harder and better, and has a better genetic starting point.

That's why he won 7 Tours even though he was singled out for doping countless times and it was never proven.

So, are you suggesting he did dope, and was just never caught?



P.S. I'm not an LA worshipper; I think the way he treated people close to him (wives and kids) over the years is pathetic. But I do believe he is the greatest cyclist ever born.

[Bushranger]

there are perhaps 'better cyclists' but how is that measured or determined? a complete tour athelete, one that only does the TdF, lead out men, domestiques. it is a TEAM sport, and guys like LA scream attention and are drawcards. (a positive) I consider LA to be similar to a fighter pilot with his fighter plane. both are pretty much useless for the entire contest without the rest of the Air Force and air frames, yet they (the knuckleheads) are the ones lauded.

LA's focus and self is absolute. training and racing for one event seems to be what is required. as mentioned, others won't show for the other tours in 2010, instead concentrating on TdF. Good decision, it has worked for LA several times. 2010 will be like nothing ever seen before with new teams, structures etc. Fascinating and captivating

[Kratos]

I didn't say that, I was making more of a blanket statement.

What I meant was, his V02 Max is 85, among the highest ever recorded. His lactic acid production is extremely low. He is the only human known to have increased his muscle efficiency through training.
(http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0722_050722_armstrong.html)

So maybe he didn't do anything others didn't do. But he does it harder and better, and has a better genetic starting point.


That's why he won 7 Tours even though he was singled out for doping countless times and it was never proven.

So, are you suggesting he did dope, and was just never caught?



P.S. I'm not an LA worshipper; I think the way he treated people close to him (wives and kids) over the years is pathetic. But I do believe he is the greatest cyclist ever born.

Good point there. Genetics are very important. To answer your question, yes. I'm not saying he's not a gifted athlete, but he's not the only gifted athlete. This is international-level competition here. It is not that difficult to defeat testing procedures, especially if you have some inkling of when they are coming. Bonds has never been proven to have used steroids, but do you really believe he didn't? Canseco never tested positive(while he was playing) but he admitted he had used them. If you want to be competetive, let alone, dominate, you have to meet the status quo. Don't even mention the Olympic athletes. The thing is, everybody wants these record-smashing performances, but then they turn around and chastise the athletes for what they have to do to perform. More is never enough. It doesn't take away from the fact that these guys are phenomenal. The drugs didn't give them their ability, only enhanced it.

[koso]

Baseball's drug policy was always *wink wink nudge nudge* where Lance was in a position of "You are tearing our country's Tour a new corn chute, we don't like you, therefore you aren't going to be able to drink a cup of coffee without some frog taking blood out of your arm".

In my opinion they never proved it, never will prove it, because it didn't happen.

Floyd Landis, otoh, can squawk all he wants, but we saw him make that climb that by all rights he shouldn't have been able to do. I was not surprised at all when he got popped.

[Brodirt]

floyd landis, otoh, can squawk all he wants, but we saw him make that climb that by all rights he shouldn't have been able to do. I was not surprised at all when he got popped.

wrong!!!!!


“a closer look at the data, however, shows that floyd’s performance that day was well within his physical and mental capacity,” said coach dr. Allen lim. “in fact, the most important contributors to floyd’s comeback was the tactics that developed during the ride - the hesitation by the peloton to chase and floyd’s intelligent use of water.”

landis had previously used a power meter in the 2005 tour and lim had published all his performance data. Analyzing his stage 17 results in 2006, lim concluded that “floyd averaged 281 watts for the entire 5 hour and 23 minute ride”. He went on to add that, “in training before the tour and even before the tour of georgia, floyd would regularly perform 6-hour rides at 300-310 watt averages.”

lim also pointed to other figures: “as a point of reference, the overall average for the mountain days in the 2006 tour de france was 269 watts +/- 16 watts [253-285], while the average in the 2005 tour de france for the mountains was 274 watts +/- 20 watts [254-294].”

going into the stage, lim calculated that if landis produced 380 watts on the climbs he would stay with the field; anything over and he would put time into them. Producing 370 watts would mean losing time. Using landis’s stage 17 data, lim published the following figures for the climbs.

* col des saises: 36 min 55 sec at 395 watts (gains time on field)

* col des aravis: 16 min 49 sec at 371 watts (loses time on field)

* col de la colombiere: 27 min 45 sec at 392 watts (gains time on field)

* cote de chatillon: 11 min 7 sec at 374 watts (loses time on field)

* col de joux-plane: 37 min 34 sec at 372 watts (loses time on field)

comparing the power data above to landis’s performance in 2005 is illustrative. His best performance was on the mountains stage in the alps, stage 11 to briancon where he averaged 285 watts. In two tough consecutive days in the pyrenees, stages 14 and 15, perhaps more comparable to stage 16 and stage 17 in 2006, for example, landis averaged only 262 and 249 watts - the second day to pla d’adet showing the strain of consecutive stages.

Lim’s data for stage 17 shows several impressive power performances for periods over 30 minutes - 395 watts on the col des saises, 392 watts on the col de la colombiere, and 372 watts on the col de joux plane. In 2005, on stages 14 and 15, his 30 minute peak power performances were 379 watts and 361 watts. It was these repeated efforts on the stage 17 climbs that were the winning formula.

Landis clearly made some improvements in his average power and peak power outputs for certain timeframes from his tour ride in 2005 to his 2006 performance. What is interesting, though, is lim’s claim that landis was doing training rides at notably higher average wattages than any of his tour performances in 2005. Now that’s hard training!

But these numbers were Landis in isolation, not a comparison to what the rest of the peloton on stage 17 were doing. What exactly happened on that epic ride?

As is well known, Landis and his team attacked on the Col des Saises. By the bottom of the Col des Aravis he had caught the breakaway group that had an 11 minute gap when Landis made his move. By the Colombiere, it was only Landis, Patrik Sinkewitz (ironically busted for testosterone in 2007), Daniele Righi, and Patrice Halgand in the group, Stuey O’Grady one of the riders dropped.

“I thought that was impossible, what he did,” O’Grady said later. “I’m not a bad bike rider and, you know, he made me look like a little kid.”

At the summit, Landis and his companions had 8 minutes over the peloton and his rivals.

Much has been made of the unwillingness of the peloton to chase Landis down, as they had expected him to crack and be brought back. When they did get organized, the gap started coming down. At the bottom of the Joux-Plane it was around 7′15, which was about the time that a number of chasers, including Carlos Sastre, Christophe Moreau, and Damiano Cunego, started to respond.

The Joux-Plane is one of the toughest Tour climbs in the Alps, rated hors categorie with just over 1,000 metres of climbing over 11.7 kilometres at an average gradient of 8.5%.

At the top it was Landis first over, followed by Sastre at 5′08, Moreau at 5′58, Cunego at 6′19, yellow jersey Oscar Pereiro was with Andreas Klöden and Frank Schleck at 6′52, with Michael Rasmussen, Cadel Evans, Dennis Menchov and Sinkewitz at 7′19.

The remarkable part of Landis performance was that on this toughest of climbs, while he lost time to three of the best climbers in the peloton, he was able to lose only 23 seconds to Klöden and Schleck, two excellent mountain men themselves, and Pereiro himself - also a capable climber - while he actually gained a few seconds on other top contenders.