Proctor and Gamble has purchased Art of Shaving

[endcycle]

http://www.wwd.com/beauty-industry-news/pg-expands-mens-offerings-with-art-of-shaving-2155488?src=rss/beauty/20090603

Well then.

(first source = Mantic59's Twitter feed)

What are the implications here, I wonder? Will AoS products show up in drug stores? Hmmmm...

[FrankPoole]

http://www.wwd.com/beauty-industry-news/pg-expands-mens-offerings-with-art-of-shaving-2155488?src=rss/beauty/20090603

Well then.

(first source = Mantic59's Twitter feed)

What are the implications here, I wonder? Will AoS products show up in drug stores? Hmmmm...

It means a decline in quality ever so slowly over time so it is not noticable to maximize profits.

Like any other time someone is bought out by a conglomerate

[Topgumby]

Wider Distribution
Celebrity endorsements
Big bucks advertising
Degradation of quality of product

[Joshua Da Silva]

It means a decline in quality ever so slowly over time so it is not noticable to maximize profits.

Like any other time someone is bought out by a conglomerate

:crying:


Well, lets all look at the bright side. We've got an awesome excuse to stock up on goodies now :biggrin:

Seriously though, I really hope AOS doesn't go down the tubes, but that instead we get their products becoming widely available. I'd love to be able to get some of their stuff in my local walmart!

[David in Boston]

Wider Distribution
Celebrity endorsements
Big bucks advertising
Degradation of quality of product


Another example of "Big" does not necessarily mean "Better".

David

[Bulldawg]

Funny thing is that I always thought that P&G either owned or had some sort of stake in AOS. I thought it was weird how they sold traditional shaving software but geared the hardware towards the Fusion cartridge system. Even their website seemed to be leaning toward the Fusion.

[mantic]

Just heard from my contact at AOS. She confirmed the purchase.

--Mark

[soapbox]

Time to start searching for a new after-shave balm. I love the AoS sandalwood, and man does it heal me up after a tough shave. I usually use the Neutrogena triple-protect, but the AoS is so good. Oh well, if Dad can make a great shave soap, maybe he and Mom can concoct a balm too... :001_smile

[kzoo1]

:crying:


Well, lets all look at the bright side. We've got an awesome excuse to stock up on goodies now :biggrin:

Seriously though, I really hope AOS doesn't go down the tubes, but that instead we get their products becoming widely available. I'd love to be able to get some of their stuff in my local walmart!


If you see it in Walmart- you can rest assured that it has been reformulated, and possibly manufactured in China...

[mantic]

Funny thing is that I always thought that P&G either owned or had some sort of stake in AOS. I thought it was weird how they sold traditional shaving software but geared the hardware towards the Fusion cartridge system. Even their website seemed to be leaning toward the Fusion.
From wwd.com:

P&G and Art of Shaving are not strangers to each other. In 2007, the two formed a partnership whereby Art of Shaving began selling $150 Chrome Fusion razors, a high-end version of Gillette’s Fusion razor, which launched in 2005. The price, while high, didn’t deter shoppers, and Chrome Fusion became The Art of Shaving’s best-selling stockkeeping unit in 2008, said Malka.

Bergh said he first happened upon The Art of Shaving brand when he saw Malka on TV praising Fusion shortly after its launch.

“It blew me away the way the media was trying to figure out whether Fusion was a fad or a gimmick. They went to Eric” to see what the expert in shaving thought about Fusion, who praised its technology in a variety of interviews.

“I said, ‘We should go see this guy and see if we could work together,’” Bergh said.

[thirdeye]

...and poof, there goes AOS.....:001_rolle

[drumana]

I just hope they don't mess with the shave soap... the rest I don't really care about.

[Blade II]

If I see an add with Tiger woods lathering up with AOS I don't think i will ever use it again.

[mantic]

...and poof, there goes AOS.....:001_rolle

They're going to be a "wholly owned subsidiary" (at least for now :eek: )

--Mark

[thirdeye]

They're going to be a "wholly owned subsidiary" (at least for now :eek: )

--Mark

Isn't that what they said about Gillette?

[soapbox]

Isn't that what they said about Gillette?

Where's marty? I need a good "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE"...

[jkh]

Son of a ... AOS is easily my favorite soap. I hope the "is" doesn't become "was"

[Spatterdash]

This explains all those stories of AOS staff showing disdain at the mere mention of DE razors while hard-selling the gourmet handles for MachIII's and Fusions.
They were partners.

I'm glad I never got attached to AOS products. Looks like I dodged a bullet.

[crocto]

i love how you're all bitching already. this is great. when will you learn that most companies don't care about their consumers? if i'm a small biz owner and someone wants to give me a billion dollars for it why would i turn it down?

[Bulldawg]

i love how you're all bitching already. this is great. when will you learn that most companies don't care about their consumers? if i'm a small biz owner and someone wants to give me a billion dollars for it why would i turn it down?

:confused: Not sure anyone's questioning the fact that AOS made a sound financial decision. Since this is a shaving forum there are naturally folks here that enjoy AOS products and are concerned about the quality of said products moving forward. "Bitching" is a harsh way to describe the conversation in this thread.

[Mr.Max]

Oh great. Now watch them get rid of the tallow in the shave soap.

[MrFusion]

If I see an add with Tiger woods lathering up with AOS I don't think i will ever use it again.

+1

Well, at least it won't change overnight so we all have the chance to stock-up.

[mretzloff]

Well, I guess stocking up is our only option...

[Confilo]

Son of a ... AOS is easily my favorite soap. I hope the "is" doesn't become "was"

I hope they keep the same tallow formulation in the soap. As for the rest of its' products...who cares.

[Plott]

They're going to be a "wholly owned subsidiary" (at least for now :eek: )

--Mark

My bet is that it's a learning acquisition.

The luxury fusion handles and chrome stands are very profitable, and P&G are most likely interested in expanding such consepts, and to move it out of a niche market. Such projects are often impossible without equity arrangements, for instance joint ventures or takeovers.

My bet is that AoS will appear unchanged for the next 12 months, and then all of a sudden P&G will start to launch a "new" high-end shave range, based on the knowledge they just bought from AoS.

[xgunterx]

8<
My bet is that AoS will appear unchanged for the next 12 months, and then all of a sudden P&G will start to launch a "new" high-end shave range, based on the knowledge they just bought from AoS.

THAT would be a very stupid move.
P&G didn't bought just a formula but a brand.

[Plott]

THAT would be a very stupid move.
P&G didn't bought just a formula but a brand.

I see that my post was unclear. The "new", was meant as new to the broader market. Branding of AoS as something different then we (the nerds) know it today.

[mretzloff]

I see that my post was unclear. The "new", was meant as new to the broader market. Branding of AoS as something different then we (the nerds) know it today.

Do you mean under Gillette's name?


What I could see is that AoS keeps making their normal products but makes some more convenient. I could see AoS canned goo and the like.

[maj3289]

it's be nice if they brought some of that soap to our local stores:thumbup1:

[Fernando]

Another example of "Big" does not necessarily mean "Better".

David

I concur.:bored:

[Obsessed]

I could see AoS canned goo and the like.

I was just thinking the same thing.

[TonyH]

I can't say that I've ever tried their products. When I first started DE shaving about 2 years ago, I looked at their brushes and such and was very impressed. But the more time I spent looking at their stuff, the more I thought "Why do they hawk fancy handles for sh*tty razors?" I didn't know ANYTHING about wet shaving then, other than I was DONE with my Gillette crap, and any "high end" shop that sold upgraded crap was not for me. I suppose that I should give their soaps and such a spin, since so many fellas seem to like it, but I was pretty much put off from the get go.

[Joshua Da Silva]

If you see it in Walmart- you can rest assured that it has been reformulated, and possibly manufactured in China...

I know :frown: I meant that I would love AoS as it is in Walmart. But that won't happen.


If I see an add with Tiger woods lathering up with AOS I don't think i will ever use it again.

Yeah...I wouldn't want to either.


Funny thing is that I always thought that P&G either owned or had some sort of stake in AOS. I thought it was weird how they sold traditional shaving software but geared the hardware towards the Fusion cartridge system. Even their website seemed to be leaning toward the Fusion.

I thought Gillette owned them already. I'm not sure why, I was under the impression I'd read that somewhere. Oh well.

[Plott]

Do you mean under Gillette's name?


What I could see is that AoS keeps making their normal products but makes some more convenient. I could see AoS canned goo and the like.

No, I didn't mean under the Gillette name. Or, necesseraly under the AoS name.

Bear in mind, I'm probably just rambling here, but;
AoS is clearly low volume, high cost, high end.
Gillette is high volume, low cost, "all end"

My guess is that one of the reasons that P&G bought AoS is to learn "how to do high end." Then if P&G is able to combine this with their already impressive cost structure, voila, the potential to bring forward a new brand. Then P&G get a shave portfolio of: AoS as high end, XX as a midlevel, and Gillette as the backbone/low level. $325 for this AoS bugger (http://www.theartofshaving.com/taos6/product.php?product=92212&group=8&trk=group), $100 for the XX alternative, and whatnot for the Gillette. And yes, some "luxurious" canned goo for the aspiring middle-class shaver. I bet there is demand for a midlevel shave-range out there, and no better then P&G to tap into that, if they get their economics of scale going for them.

[kongjie]

I'm a little surprised that P&G made this acquisition. It looks like AoS has 30-40 retail locations and if business at them is as slow as the one or two locations I've visited, the brick and mortar must be a real money-burner.

As someone stated above, this is definitely a case of P&G buying into a brand.

[Leatherneck]

I'm a little surprised that P&G made this acquisition. It looks like AoS has 30-40 retail locations and if business at them is as slow as the one or two locations I've visited, the brick and mortar must be a real money-burner.

As someone stated above, this is definitely a case of P&G buying into a brand.

Who knows. Maybe it's a planned tax write off. Buy a smaller competitor (done all the time), write off losses for a few years while learning from your new market studies, and finally declare your cutting losses by closing this money loser or that.

You've now had tax breaks, increased product knowledge and eliminated a competitor. Win, win for the big guy.

Just thinking,

Kev

[Plott]

You've now had tax breaks, increased product knowledge and eliminated a competitor. Win, win for the big guy.

Very good and valid points!

[mantic]

...My guess is that one of the reasons that P&G bought AoS is to learn "how to do high end." Then if P&G is able to combine this with their already impressive cost structure, voila, the potential to bring forward a new brand. Then P&G get a shave portfolio of: AoS as high end, XX as a midlevel, and Gillette as the backbone/low level...I bet there is demand for a midlevel shave-range out there, and no better then P&G to tap into that, if they get their economics of scale going for them.

Here's a quote from the wwd.com article I found interesting:

Bergh cited immediate growth potential in Art of Shaving’s store business, as well as an opportunity to tap knowledge from its burgeoning Internet business (it accounts for 10 percent of overall sales).

“On the P&G side [Internet] is tiny, so we can learn a lot there,” said Bergh.


--Mark

[AdrianR]

My 2c worth...

1. P&G intend to learn about the high-end niche of the wetshaving market so they can produce a line of mid-level products or 'improve' the Gillette cartridge line.
2. Within 12 months, AoS will stop carrying DE & Straight razors, as well as DE blades and anything that cannot be used with the Gillette cartridge system.

[Bulldawg]

Within 12 months, AoS will stop carrying DE & Straight razors, as well as DE blades and anything that cannot be used with the Gillette cartridge system.

I didn't realize they carried DE's, straights, or blades. I visited the one in Lenox Mall (Atlanta) a few months ago and all hardware was geared towards cartridges. Maybe I just overlooked it.

I'm curious to see if AOS will update the "expert advice" (http://www.theartofshaving.com/taos6/common-questions.php?trk=footer) portion of their website. They criticize canned goo a couple of times and they say that "Drugstore-bought handles are feather-light and poorly balanced." The whole thing is somewhat bizarre to me. Seems to me like Gillette would want to keep cartridge users as far away from traditional shaving practices as possible. What if the guy that spent $275 (http://www.theartofshaving.com/taos6/product.php?product=92213&group=12&trk=group)on a Fusion handle, pure badger brush, and stand realizes what he could have gotten for that amount of money? Seems like their customers will be one click away from realizing what else is out there (DE's, straights, better brushes,...etc) but...I guess when it comes to shaving hardware...YMMV..to each his own....etc.

[bearbear]

P&G and Art of Shaving are not strangers to each other. In 2007, the two formed a partnership whereby Art of Shaving began selling $150 Chrome Fusion razors, a high-end version of Gillette’s Fusion razor, which launched in 2005. The price, while high, didn’t deter shoppers, and Chrome Fusion became The Art of Shaving’s best-selling stockkeeping unit in 2008, said Malka.

Bergh said he first happened upon The Art of Shaving brand when he saw Malka on TV praising Fusion shortly after its launch.

“It blew me away the way the media was trying to figure out whether Fusion was a fad or a gimmick. They went to Eric” to see what the expert in shaving thought about Fusion, who praised its technology in a variety of interviews.

“I said, ‘We should go see this guy and see if we could work together,’” Bergh said.


sounds to me like the owner is all about the benjamins. Great business move, shitty for all the customers that paved the way for him.

[SavantStrike]

I guess no more de's and straights in the AOS stores...

[Shane]

I think it's P&G making some extra bank off of a more upscale niche market. I wouldn't bet money on seeing AOS products in Wal-Mart anytime soon.

[David in Boston]

I think it's P&G making some extra bank off of a more upscale niche market. I wouldn't bet money on seeing AOS products in Wal-Mart anytime soon.

I was thinking the same.

Cover all the market from low to high end.

[strat1117]

Being the eternal optimist, I assume that this means that the product will remain identical, but economies of scale will allow the price to be cut in half.

:001_smile

[GMen]

I can't say that I've ever tried their products. When I first started DE shaving about 2 years ago, I looked at their brushes and such and was very impressed. But the more time I spent looking at their stuff, the more I thought "Why do they hawk fancy handles for sh*tty razors?" I didn't know ANYTHING about wet shaving then, other than I was DONE with my Gillette crap, and any "high end" shop that sold upgraded crap was not for me. I suppose that I should give their soaps and such a spin, since so many fellas seem to like it, but I was pretty much put off from the get go.

+1 I had bad customer service the first time I went into the local store, it turned me off, never been back, that was like 4 months ago.

[HoratioCaine]

I can't say I'm all that surprised. There were signs of AoS's slide even before the Fusion atrocities. Back when I first started taking an interest in them, nearly any store that sold a good selection of AoS products carried both shaving creams and soaps, and aftershave balms and gels, in all four scent options. After a while, it got so you could only find creams and balms; soaps and gels had to be special ordered, or purchased via the company website. Some of the more interesting products, like their rose water hydrosol, became all but impossible to find, as well. Even before the Fusions, AoS had custom made Mach3 heads - not just handles - on offer. Many of us always knew that AoS wasn't about a renaissance of old-school shaving ideals so much as the upscale marketing of old-school cachet to those with a lot of money and little knowledge, even if some of their products were very good. The changes in the later Malka "era" only strengthened that view; this buyout proves it. Eric Malka was always a marketer. It isn't surprising he sold out. But then, who among us wouldn't, if we were offered millions and could then retire to an Island somewhere in the Pacific?

I would like to think P&G bought AoS because they think it's a good company and know not to fix what isn't broken. I won't be betting on that, though. Any time a good company is taken over by a corporate giant, we start seeing the manifestations of corporate groupthink in the brand's offerings. Once Crest took over Glide floss (originally produced by Gore Industries, the makers of Gore-Tex), we got all kinds of different flosses, each one touted as doing a better job than the one before it. When Philips took over Sonicare, they started introducing new models every other year; the latest deal is brush heads with "indicator" bristles that fade to white when it's time to replace the head. (Gee, I wonder where they got that idea - cough, Gillette indicator strip, cough.) No, corporations have one way of thinking - customers are brainless lemmings that need to be told what to do, think and like, and will do just that if persuaded properly. The sad thing is, in many cases, they're right. Those of us who populate forums like this one are the exception, not the rule.

[crocto]

:confused: Not sure anyone's questioning the fact that AOS made a sound financial decision. Since this is a shaving forum there are naturally folks here that enjoy AOS products and are concerned about the quality of said products moving forward. "Bitching" is a harsh way to describe the conversation in this thread.

i think bitching is the correct way to describe. you're the customer not on the BoD. i'm completely unconcerned and i like the art of shaving stuff. there's tons of other things out there though.

[blackfoot]

i think bitching is the correct way to describe. you're the customer not on the BoD. i'm completely unconcerned and i like the art of shaving stuff. there's tons of other thigns out there though.

There plenty now, but if this trend continues.....:eek:

[soapbox]

Being a self-deluding pollyanna, I assume that this means that the product will remain identical, but economies of scale will allow the price to be cut in half.

Er, fixed that for you. Also, there's no Santa Claus.

[blackfoot]

Er, fixed that for you. Also, there's no Santa Claus.

:lol::lol::lol:

[SepticTank]

I was thinking the same.

Cover all the market from low to high end.

Same idea as their super expensive shampoo like - whose name escapes me (it's 10 years since I last bought shampoo when my hair left the building) - it's &#163;38 a bottle. Fekkai or something :confused:

[Ignatius]

you're the customer not on the BoD.

True...


there's tons of other things out there though.

Again, true...

How this relates to the concerns of happy AoS customers concerned about the future of the brand isn't clear.


There's a very good chance AoS products will become crap. This is what generally happens when multinationals take over small companies. These are the people that gave us the Gillette Phantom Menace Fusion Vibro Dyna Shave.

AoS fans are entitled to 'bitch', though they're certainly not in this thread.

[RichGem]

Er, fixed that for you. Also, there's no Santa Claus.

Tho I think Chip met the Tooth Fairy once at a rave he went to.

(can't find the link, sorry)

[gollum83]

True...



Again, true...

How this relates to the concerns of happy AoS customers concerned about the future of the brand isn't clear.


There's a very good chance AoS products will become crap. This is what generally happens when multinationals take over small companies. These are the people that gave us the Gillette Phantom Menace Fusion Vibro Dyna Shave.

AoS fans are entitled to 'bitch', though they're certainly not in this thread.

Being a bit pessimistic aren't we? To assume anything at this point is pointless if you want my opinion, especially to assume that P&G are going to essentially destroy the AoS line. Not every acquisition they make is going to ruin shaving as we know it. Remember Gillette made the choice to part with the double edge safety razor and go with the multiblade cartridge long before P&G came into the picture. Let's give this a few months before we start drawing any conclusion.

[crocto]

Being a bit pessimistic aren't we? To assume anything at this point is pointless if you want my opinion, especially to assume that P&G are going to essentially destroy the AoS line. Not every acquisition they make is going to ruin shaving as we know it. Remember Gillette made the choice to part with the double edge safety razor and go with the multiblade cartridge long before P&G came into the picture. Let's give this a few months before we start drawing any conclusion.

thank you.

they haven't even done anything yet. give it 6 months, a year and then see where they are.

[The Nid Hog]

Oh great. Now watch them get rid of the tallow in the shave soap.

Or just get rid of shaving soap altogether. Get ready for AoS foamy and gel at the drugstore!

[reub2000]

I didn't realize they carried DE's, straights, or blades. I visited the one in Lenox Mall (Atlanta) a few months ago and all hardware was geared towards cartridges. Maybe I just overlooked it.

I'm curious to see if AOS will update the "expert advice" (http://www.theartofshaving.com/taos6/common-questions.php?trk=footer) portion of their website. They criticize canned goo a couple of times and they say that "Drugstore-bought handles are feather-light and poorly balanced." The whole thing is somewhat bizarre to me. Seems to me like Gillette would want to keep cartridge users as far away from traditional shaving practices as possible. What if the guy that spent $275 (http://www.theartofshaving.com/taos6/product.php?product=92213&group=12&trk=group)on a Fusion handle, pure badger brush, and stand realizes what he could have gotten for that amount of money? Seems like their customers will be one click away from realizing what else is out there (DE's, straights, better brushes,...etc) but...I guess when it comes to shaving hardware...YMMV..to each his own....etc.
I'm sure that the marketing experts can prevent this from becoming a gateway drug.

Also, don't forget that gillette is in the buisness of selling blades. Somebody who has invested money into a metal handle has no choice but keep on purchasing cartridges, or see their "investment" sit idle in the medicine cabinet. Not a bad deal for gillette.

[gollum83]

Or just get rid of shaving soap altogether. Get ready for AoS foamy and gel at the drugstore!

Again why speculate? We'll see the fallout from this in the coming months not weeks. Besides, this acquisition could have the opposite effect. We could see the return of shaving soaps to the supermarkets and drugstores. Then again maybe not.

All I have to say is this is quite a pessimistic bunch for a group of shavers that's constantly looking for brick and mortar stores selling quality shaving goods in their area. If this might expand the availability of AoS products, why isn't this a good thing?

[MattR]

For heaven’s sake people! Anyone would think that this was the end of the world as we know it. Do you folks walk around with sandwich boards and placards of a Saturday? Look, this is going to happen more and more and I’m afraid it’s partly (Well actually quite significantly) our fault. You see up until recently wet-shaving and all that went with it was a dying market. Then along came the Wet Shave revolution with all us Nay Sayers who wanted to dump the expensive cartridges and disappointing goo and go with this wonderfully satisfying world of badger hair brushes, chromed razors, fancy soaps etc. We became quite vocal and set up a web forum and now that forum represents 15,000+ members. You can pretty well be sure that that number is but a few percentage points of the real market size. More importantly from P&G’s point of view is the number of on-line retailers that have appeared around the world servicing this growing market. Why then is it so surprising to you all that P&G want a piece of the action? As many have mentioned ad nauseum, P&G is getting diminishing returns from each successive cartridge launch so they will be looking at how they can diversify their business lines to cover new markets. This appears to be one step in that type of strategy.

One could look at it in several ways but I suspect what will happen is that we will now see wet shave products appearing as mainstream products along side the canned goos and cartridges. They will be marketed at the higher end of the food chain and will give P&G alternative marketing options other than “more blades, faster shaves etc.”. We will probably see a “sister” brand appear – think Lexus to Toyota. The niche producers will continue to exist as will most of the on-line retailers, just as they do today. We will still be able to buy soaps and creams with exotic content and perfumes so long as we exist. What P&G’s move into this part of the market will do is simply widen it to the consumers who haven’t thought of buying anything else – the one’s we like to convert. In fact it is highly likely that this could be a very good thing for us all. If the marketing goes as I suspect it will then many more people will be awakened to the alternative shaving products and maybe even methods. That makes our world more sustainable and increases the likelihood of other brands emerging. I doubt that Gillette DE’s will re-emerge – although if I worked for P&G I would definitely be looking at that move as part of this strategy.

That raises an interesting question. How many of you would buy a brand new re-launched SuperSpeed if Gillette brought it back and sold them in Walmart?

[Ru4scuba?]

This better not result in a reformulation of their shave soap sans Tallow!

[strat1117]

Er, fixed that for you. Also, there's no Santa Claus.

Thanks. I suppose the sarcasm didn't speak for itself.

:tongue:

[gollum83]

Thanks. I suppose the sarcasm didn't speak for itself.

:tongue:

Sarcasm? I thought he was just trying to be a smartass!

[The Nid Hog]

I sympathize with all you gents who want to put a good face on this. Unfortunately, I see this as the breaking of the first seal. The Shavepocalypse is nigh.

[gollum83]

I sympathize with all you gents who want to put a good face on this. Unfortunately, I see this as the breaking of the first seal. The Shavepocalypse is nigh.

Well I think you're jumping the gun myself. And save your sympathy. Just because I'm willing to wait this out before making judgement calls, there is no need to be condensing about it. Let's just agree to disagree, okay? :smile:

[burnwood]

It means a decline in quality ever so slowly over time so it is not noticable to maximize profits.

Like any other time someone is bought out by a conglomerate

I agree with this post.

[The Nid Hog]

Well I think you're jumping the gun myself. And save your sympathy. Just because I'm willing to wait this out before making judgement calls, there is no need to be condensing about it. Let's just agree to disagree, okay? :smile:

My apologies--sympathy retracted and saved.

[soapbox]

Thanks. I suppose the sarcasm didn't speak for itself.

:tongue:


Sarcasm? I thought he was just trying to be a smartass!

Nah, it was pretty obvious -- but I wasn't going to let a soft pitch like that go unhit. Sorry if it didn't resonate. :blush:

[Spatterdash]

Okay, waitaminute.

Is there good reason to think that a small company will experience a drop in quality due to a corporate buy out? Yes, happens all the time. It's considered par for the course.

Will it happen this time? No idea, and reserving judgment seems the rational choice.

Could Gillette use this as a vehicle to expand, making wet-shaving more common again and actually helping this niche market by attracting new converts? Yeah, actually. This just might be the nudge we've been waiting for, when an international company suddenly sees us as a viable consumer group and works to provide what we want.

Is it perfectly natural for the members of this board and anyone familiar with the history of shaving to be gun-shy and freaked out about Gillette and it's practices? Yer durn tootin'!

You who call for caution and patience have a legit point, but so do the people who are worried and voice their doom and gloom emotions.

Both have a place in this thread.

[FLTiger]

We live in interesting times. I've not used any AoS products yet, but I was hoping to pick up some of their soap next time it is on sale. If they shake up their distribution chain, that could be sooner, rather than later.

[gollum83]

My apologies--sympathy retracted and saved.

No hard feelings! Group hug anyone? :a22:


Nah, it was pretty obvious -- but I wasn't going to let a soft pitch like that go unhit. Sorry if it didn't resonate. :blush:

Always going for the easy targets, eh? Wuss! :lol:

[sanuginz]

Now we'll get tallow-less AOS shave soap :mad:

[OldSaw]

Do you mean Procter & Gamble?

[Donner]

Time to start searching for a new after-shave balm. I love the AoS sandalwood, and man does it heal me up after a tough shave. I usually use the Neutrogena triple-protect, but the AoS is so good. Oh well, if Dad can make a great shave soap, maybe he and Mom can concoct a balm too... :001_smile

i'd buy it. though the wife might say it needs to smell like something and i know the colonel isn't always into making something that smells.

[SRock]

...and poof, there goes AOS.....:001_rolle

...so fast it'll make your head spin!

[Topgumby]

Cheer up, people. I'm sure the good folks at P&G can do for AoS what they did for Old Spice.

[FLTiger]

Cheer up, people. I'm sure the good folks at P&G can do for AoS what they did for Old Spice.

You win this thread!

:lol::lol::lol:

[Stubblefield]

I think it's P&G making some extra bank off of a more upscale niche market. I wouldn't bet money on seeing AOS products in Wal-Mart anytime soon.Exactly. P&G announced this as a strategy for Gillette sometime in the last year; this move surprises me not in the least. I'm sure they found AOS attractive because of their market positioning and product profitability/gross markup.

I'd expect prices to rise just a bit and a change to the only unique product in their line, which is their soap. I'd guess the soap probably does not sell the numbers that P&G would prefer, so I guarantee they will tinker with it to make it more profitable.

Gentlemen, start your hoarding.

[wundergussy]

Though this may result in a decline in AOS's quality, I don't think it is a sign of the Shavepocalypse. If anything, it will give a boost to the smaller manufacturers as people search for high-quality replacements. As major record labels bemoaned the death of the music industry a few years ago, indie record companies have not only done better (and artists have had more of a chance at direct profits) but actual vinyl has had a huge resurgence. No one in America reliably makes razors or blades, but we all still manage to shave!

[soapbox]

Oh well, if Dad can make a great shave soap, maybe he and Mom can concoct a balm too... :001_smile


i'd buy it. though the wife might say it needs to smell like something and i know the colonel isn't always into making something that smells.

Heh, thanks! Yeah, your SWMBO never did like the unscented bath soaps, did she? Well, I think making an after-shave balm be an easier sell once Colonel Soapbox and I get the shave soap recipe worked out (watch your mailbox in the coming week, Don), since it's another product they could add to the GMSC line.


Though this may result in a decline in AOS's quality, I don't think it is a sign of the Shavepocalypse. If anything, it will give a boost to the smaller manufacturers as people search for high-quality replacements.

Hear hear! Though sustaining small manufacturers of DE blades might be a tough proposition; there are high costs to entering the market, and you wouldn't be able to afford the Feather DE blade machines so you'd probably be making ASR- or 7AM-grade blades, rather than Iridiums or Feathers... :frown:

[strat1117]

Nah, it was pretty obvious -- but I wasn't going to let a soft pitch like that go unhit. Sorry if it didn't resonate. :blush:

No apology necessary. I just have to learn to make better use of smilies -- I always forget that sarcasm doen't necessarily translate well in a post.

Of course, I just always assume that everyone is being sarcastic -- but that is a separate issue.

:tongue_sm

[Bulldawg]

I'd expect prices to rise just a bit and a change to the only unique product in their line, which is their soap. I'd guess the soap probably does not sell the numbers that P&G would prefer, so I guarantee they will tinker with it to make it more profitable.

Gentlemen, start your hoarding.

It should be interesting to see if/when anything changes with the soap. AOS website seems to be a bit lukewarm about soaps: "The difference is that the Shaving Soap requires the use of a shaving brush, whereas the Shaving Cream can be used with or without a brush. Both offer a good lather and a great shave. Both are rich in moisture, so that they will not dry the skin. Also, the Soap takes a bit more time than the Cream to lather up to a rich consistency. We find that Shaving Soaps appeal to a more traditional clientele who appreciate old-world charms." My guess is they will likely continue making the soaps. I've never really cared for their soaps but hopefully AOS users won't be disappointed with any changes they make.

[soapbox]

Of course, I just always assume that everyone is being sarcastic -- but that is a separate issue.

Heh, well, it's usually a safe bet when B&Bers are talking about corporate America... :tongue:

[strat1117]

Heh, well, it's usually a safe bet when B&Bers are talking about corporate America... :tongue:

Exactly. :w00t:

[soapbox]

Heh, well, it's usually a safe bet when B&Bers are talking about corporate America... :tongue:


Exactly. :w00t:

Er, especially when your avatar is a Zappa album. I should have pointed that out first, then made my snippy reply, ha ha. :smile:

[STINGYBRIMSandBOURBON]

I just heard (not sure if you guys know this) P&G, parent company of Gillette just bought The Art of Shaving....

http://www.boston.com/business/ticker/2009/06/gillette_parent.html

Not sure if this is good news or bad? Thoughts?

[JCee]

Just speculating, but I'd look for a paring down of the AOS product line, just focusing on the soaps, creams and balms. I would look for them to discontinue selling anything short of Fusions razors.

Personally if I were part of P&G, I would use this as an opportunity to market a line of Gillette 'classic' blades and DE's. That way they could cater to our market without cannibalizing sales from their standard core Gillette brand.

[HoratioCaine]

Not sure if this is good news or bad? Thoughts?


There's a five page, 84 post thread (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=92986) a page or so down in this forum. You should find plenty of "thoughts" there. :smile:

Edit: Now that's interesting. I no sooner mention the other thread than this becomes part of that thread. I'm not sure I agree with that moderating choice, as it's a bit of a nonsequitur for those reading this thread without knowledge of the merger. But I guess it's better than littering up the forum with a bunch of threads on the same topic.

[Arthur]

Just throwing my 2 cents out there. I work in the professional beauty industry. Lately P&G has been buying up some professional brands out there. Two that we work with in my company a lot are the hair care brand Sebastian and the haircare/color brand Wella.

When we found out about the purchase there was a lot of speculation and rumor mongering about whether or not we were going to see our professional products on drugstore shelves, or if we were going to see any product degradation. I have to say honestly, we've only seen improvement to both brands. Wella has reformulated its flagship color line, Koleston Perfect, improving the texture of the product, adding more shine, more conditioning, and releasing more shades from which to select. On the Sebastian front, they did a complete reboot of the brand. All but their top selling hairsprays were 86'd and they released an entirely new line with newer technology and a new marketing strategy. They really revived a dying brand.

Now, with all this change came a promise from P&G. They promised our industry that they would be committed to maintaining the level of quality expected in a professional market, and that our interest would remain protected in that we would not be seeing any of the professional brands on drugstore shelves. Impressively, diversion of both of these brands is down substantially since the takeover.

Cliffs: we expected the worse and were more than pleasantly surprised.

p.s. I do not work for or represent Wella/Sebastian/P&G in any way shape or form. Just sharing my experience, take it for what it's worth.

[blackfoot]

There's a five page, 84 post thread (http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=92986) a page or so down in this forum. You should find plenty of "thoughts" there. :smile:

Edit: Now that's interesting. I no sooner mention the other thread than this becomes part of that thread. I'm not sure I agree with that moderating choice, as it's a bit of a nonsequitur for those reading this thread without knowledge of the merger. But I guess it's better than littering up the forum with a bunch of threads on the same topic.

You don't want four threads saying the same things. Our servers are already getting their workout. :cool:

[Topgumby]

The thread merge is in keeping with the spirit of P&G.

All your shaving needs will be contained in one convenient, easy-to-swallow caplet.

AoS...now with Swagga!

[HoratioCaine]

You don't want four threads saying the same things. Our servers are already getting their workout. :cool:

I agree. I just wonder if it might be a good idea to include some kind of indication that the threads had been merged, for the sake of those reading the thread in sequence who suddenly come across a post saying, "I don't know if you guys know about the buyout," after five pages of people discussing the buyout. But maybe I'm overthinking it. :wink:

[blackfoot]

I agree. I just wonder if it might be a good idea to include some kind of indication that the threads had been merged, for the sake of those reading the thread in sequence who suddenly come across a post saying, "I don't know if you guys know about the buyout," after five pages of people discussing the buyout. But maybe I'm overthinking it. :wink:

Odds are, yes. :lol: Seriously, I know it threw me at first. But, I have seen many threads merged in my short stint here. It's just part of the game, I guess.

[HoratioCaine]

Wella has reformulated its flagship color line, Koleston Perfect, improving the texture of the product, adding more shine, more conditioning, and releasing more shades from which to select. On the Sebastian front, they did a complete reboot of the brand. All but their top selling hairsprays were 86'd and they released an entirely new line with newer technology and a new marketing strategy.

These might have been good things for Wella and Sebastian, but ironically, what you just described is exactly what most fans of AoS fear the most - reformulations and discontinuations of existing favorite products, accompanied by new products that aren't what brought people to the line in the first place. At this point all we can do is speculate, and and wait to see, I guess.

[HoratioCaine]

Odds are, yes. :lol: Seriously, I know it threw me at first. But, I have seen many threads merged in my short stint here. It's just part of the game, I guess.

It's probably a good thing. During my time on another forum, they never deleted any redundant threads, and things got pretty cluttered on the board. There's always a tradeoff, I guess.

Edit: Regarding your "short stint," I just noticed your number of posts relative to your join date. How in the heck did you get that many posts in four months?

[blackfoot]

It's probably a good thing. During my time on another forum, they never deleted any redundant threads, and things got pretty cluttered on the board. There's always a tradeoff, I guess.

This is the only forum I have ever been a member of. But it does seem like things could get messy. I liked the comment someone made about demonstrating what P&G are doing. :lol:

[Arthur]

These might have been good things for Wella and Sebastian, but ironically, what you just described is exactly what most fans of AoS fear the most - reformulations and discontinuations of existing favorite products, accompanied by new products that aren't what brought people to the line in the first place. At this point all we can do is speculate, and and wait to see, I guess.

That fear is understandable. Wella actually had a reputation of doing just that, even before the P&G takeover. As soon as we had a product that we loved/sold on a regular basis, they would discontinue it in the name of staying ahead of the trends. When the change came, we all had our doubts... fully expected the color to be a complete failure but it's actually been WONDERFUL. Now that the adjustment period is over, for all intents and purposes, it's like nothing ever changed. Chances are just as good as bad that this will be the same. :thumbup:

I'm not a P&G fanboy by any means, I just love playing devil's advocate and wish people would put away their Jump To Conclusions mats (http://www.thinkgeek.com/books/humor/8e6c/images/2070/) once in a while. :biggrin1:

[Stubblefield]

The thread merge is in keeping with the spirit of P&G.

All your shaving needs will be contained in one convenient, easy-to-swallow caplet.
Should P&G ever take over Badger And Blade, I would expect all threads would be merged in one uber-mega thread. :biggrin:

For starters, I bet if you merged all the Tabac and Slant threads the thread count would drop by 50&#37;.

You don't want four threads saying the same things. Our servers are already getting their workout. :cool:Sadly, by sitting here typing I'm just getting fatter. At least someone/something is getting a workout.

[DCGuy03]

I just came back from the AOS store at Pentagon City mall (in the DC area) and wanted to add in my thoughts:

I really wasn't a fan of the sales style at all :( The guy was very pushy -- and when I told him I would just like to look around for a few minutes he still started asking me the classic "canned" sales questions...

My favorite - he says, "what kind of razor are you using right now-is it the fusion?"

I said "no, that one didn't work out so well for me, so now I have a Merkur"

He says, "hmm...not familiar with that one...but have you tried *this* fusion?" (no joke, holds up a fusion with a chrome handle.)

At that point I came to the conclusion that this store is a bit like how Sharper Image was -- decent products with obscenely high mark-up -- most of which is going towards commission for this sales guy that really isn't adding any valuable recommendations here. I mean, the guy clearly had razor burn on his own face!

Obviously like w/ any retail chain there will always be a range of employees - from all ends of the spectrum. But my experience with this one was enough for me to say I'll probably avoid it in future trips to the mall.

I think that it is a good concept--but perhaps better left as a one-owner store or regional chain. Can't see it getting better w/ a massive corporation owning it - but hey, it would be great if that does happen!

Has anyone had a good in-store experience at an AOS?

[richmondesi]

Wouldn't it be nice if they bought AoS for the purpose of going back to their roots? Imagine the marketing campaign about the ritual of traditional wetshaving. Of course they will continue their current offerings marketed at those for whom shaving is a chore. Now they will be able to provide the better AoS products (with the current formulations) at CVS, Wal-mart, etc. at a better price. :badger::badger::badger::badger:

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/annoying-alarm-clock-1.jpg Crap!! :frown:

[HoratioCaine]

My favorite - he says, "what kind of razor are you using right now-is it the fusion?"

I said "no, that one didn't work out so well for me, so now I have a Merkur"

He says, "hmm...not familiar with that one...but have you tried *this* fusion?" (no joke, holds up a fusion with a chrome handle.)

LOL...reminds me of virtually every experience I've had with any cosmetics sales person at any department store. It's unbelievable. They don't know grooming - they just know the standard sales line they're taught at employee orientation, or during the half-hour convo they have with the company rep that comes wafting through delivering yet another product to push. As for him having razor burn, I guess I shouldn't be surprised, either. Hell, my Ballys gym has fat people working the check-in counter. Seems the idea of having employees serve as evidence that your product is a good one is going out of style. ~Sigh~


Now that the adjustment period is over, for all intents and purposes, it's like nothing ever changed. Chances are just as good as bad that this will be the same. :thumbup:

I admire your optimism. Honestly, I'm playing devil's advocate, too, in a way, since I'm no big fan of AoS, and most likely will not be affected either way by the buyout. Still, on principle alone, I'd be sad to see their excellent shaving soaps go the way of the dinosaur.

[ctakim]

Well, I have had one beef with AOS. They only sell a limited range of shaving products with a heavy emphasis on their own products. They would do much better as a retailer if they sold a range of top quality shaving products. Just think if you had a brick and mortar store selling Penhaligons, D.R. Harris, MWF, and Truffitt & Hill products that you can walk in and check the scents. They could still sell their own brand, too. Maybe P&G will consider this change.

I have a few AOS products and they are decent, but AOS does not show up on my radar screen much at all. Also, when I visit their stores at the mall, it is literally empty of customers 90&#37; of the time.

[MPruett]

Here's an MBA's take on the purchase.

They likely got bought for one of four reasons (or some combination of them).

1. AoS was profitable enough relative to what it cost P&G to buy them to where P&G expect to make a profit in the long run on the purchase.

2. P&G see the AoS brand as something they can use to make money.

3. P&G want to have some technology that AoS pioneered.

4. AoS have distribution channels / markets that P&G wants to have a foothold in.

#1 generally means that they like it the way it is and don't necessarily intend on making major changes. Changes that are made are likely intended to further integrate the two companies- for example, slightly reformulate the soap so that it can be produced by P&G's factories economically.

#3 is probably not the case- what does AoS make that P&G couldn't have either cloned or made their own version of already?

#2 and #4 can be thought of as being along a continuum- at one end is the nightmare scenario of the AoS brand being used on cheap shave goo and other Wal-Mart merchandise, and the other end being the situation where AoS' inventory remains mostly unchanged, and P&G introduce more of their stuff into AoS' stores, albeit with different scents. Either way, AoS' name is put on other stuff, but it's a matter of brand positioning that would make all the difference. One end would use the cachet of the AoS name to market it to every Bubba out there, and the other would use the AoS stores and website to try to market their other stuff to people a step or two down from us on the wet shaving evolutionary scale.

The true scary thing for 1,2 and 4 above is that P&G's idea of profit margin for product lines is almost certainly different than AoS', and we can probably expect some serious pruning in any of the situations, and likely either new products in the same lines, or entirely new products. In other words, if a particular type of soap or shave cream doesn't move enough product, look for a new scent, or possibly something else to fill up those shelf spaces.

[Midlander]

PG's Senior VP of Global Beauty & Grooming, Ed Shirley, recently reorganized the division by gender. So there is a male division and female division. He also recently stated that men's grooming is one of the company's future growth drivers.

The move is also in line with CEO AG Lafely's stated strategy of "selling across the consumer spectrum." This includes mass market all the way to prestige (a segment P&G has been lacking). P&G wants consumers to be able to buy its products with any income and in any type of store.

This move fits perfeclty within these two strategic iniatives.

My prediction - the AOS stores will go away, but the products will appear in more department stores at cosmetics counters and in salons.

Also, don't be suprised if "The Art of Shaving" becomes a branding slogan for all of P&G's shaving products. From the cheapest can of goo to the most expensive in-grown hair cream.

Just some random thoughts from a JD/MBA

[HoratioCaine]

Changes that are made are likely intended to further integrate the two companies- for example, slightly reformulate the soap so that it can be produced by P&G's factories economically.

This is a scarier proposition than what it sounds like. The fact is, AOS doesn't make anything anyway. They contract with other makers to do it for them. Their shaving soap, for instance, is precisely as good as it is because they contract with an Italian manufacturer that uses an ultra-rich, tallow-based formula that is unique in the world of shaving. If P&G decides they want to make it - or any of the other AOS products - in their own facilities, there is a high possibility it won't be the same, especially if they resort to the "pruning" you mention for the sake of a wider profit margin. If I were an AOS user, which I'm not, I'd be far less concerned about the marketing of AOS-branded crap to bubbas than I would be about the prospect of seeing my favorite products altered or discontinued for the sake of a bottom line dictated by a corporate mentality. Anything is possible, and doom is not a given, but I'm not optimistic about the future of the quality of the products.

[gollum83]

My prediction - the AOS stores will go away, but the products will appear in more department stores at cosmetics counters and in salons.

Which wouldn't be a bad thing if they're current offerings aren't dramatically changed.


Also, don't be suprised if "The Art of Shaving" becomes a branding slogan for all of P&G's shaving products. From the cheapest can of goo to the most expensive in-grown hair cream.

I know I wouldn't be surprised, but I think this inevitability is what scares a good majority here I think. However, if P&G keeps AoS's soap and creams, and doesn't alter them, then I see it as a non-issue.

[blackfoot]

Being a bit pessimistic aren't we? To assume anything at this point is pointless if you want my opinion, especially to assume that P&G are going to essentially destroy the AoS line. Not every acquisition they make is going to ruin shaving as we know it. Remember Gillette made the choice to part with the double edge safety razor and go with the multiblade cartridge long before P&G came into the picture. Let's give this a few months before we start drawing any conclusion.

What this thread needs is more bacon! :biggrin:

[gollum83]

What this thread needs is more bacon! :biggrin:
Yes bacon makes everything better. Well unless you eat so much your blood becomes a grease-laden, heart-stopping sludge. :biggrin:

[kwk285]

I am not suprised that something like this happened.

Roughly a year ago, AOS opened a shop at a nearby mall. Most times when I walk by there is nobody in the shop. This is more of an upscale mall. If they can't get business there they probably have problems getting business at other retail outlets.

We tend to be a little pit picky on this site as to what we like and don't like. Most of the great unwashed:biggrin: don't really care what they use.

If AOS makes changes to the products that you don't like, you still will have options out there. It is best to take a wait and see attitude. We all may be pleasantly suprised.

[Confilo]

What this thread needs is more bacon! :biggrin:

Yeah! Bacon & Tallow :biggrin:

[lax1mxr]

These coming from the of the home of P&G. Many, and I do mean many of my neighbors work for gillette/P&G.

If you know anything about P&G you know that they are all about brand. Over time they have moved away from production towards brand and marketing. "AOS" is the most recognizable US brand in this Niche market. They probably see this as a way to extend the gillette product line (mach3/fusion, etc.) You will definitely not see DE's and Straights in the near future. This is all about market penetration of the Gillette brand (razors and shaving accessories).

Many of the "P&G" soaps produced today (now by spinoffs) still use tallow. I think that is a mute point though, because I do not believe that AOS produces their own soaps anyhow. They are sourced from reputable soapmakers in Europe (Valobra of Italy comes to mind). That will probably change, but I think you will still see tallow in the mix, albeit not tripple milled. The tallow based soaps they produce now are all single milled, that way they can sell more pucks, and PUCKS = BUCKS.

WHAT IS COMPLETELY IRONIC ABOUT THIS IS THE FACT THAT A P&G FRIEND OF MINE MOCKED ME WHEN HE FOUND OUT I USE A STRAIGHT AND SHAVING SOAP TO SHAVE. I TOLD HIM I WAS TIRED OF WASTING MY MONEY ON GILLETTE PRODUCTS. HMMMMM.....I GUESS I WILL CONTINUE TO NOT GIVE GILLETTE ANY P&G ANY OF MY MONEY!

SECONDLY AND THIS FROM ANOTHER GILLETTE FRIEND....

QUESTION: "WHY DOES GILLETTE CHARGE SOOOO MUCH FOR FUSION BLADES?"

ANSWER: "BECUASE WE CAN!" :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown

AOS IS NOW ON MY WALMART LIST!!!!

[crocto]

this thread reminds of me of the chicken little-metro PCS commercials i hear on the radio.

[HoratioCaine]

this thread reminds of me of the chicken little-metro PCS commercials i hear on the radio.

And your comment reminds me of how Corey Greenberg made fun of all the doomsday "shavegeeks" for getting their 'rhoids in a knot when they first heard of the TOBS shaving cream reformulation. He was right in one sense - there were a lot of people naysaying and decrying the reformulation when they had no real evidence to go by, other than what other people had been reporting. But then again, as it turned out, TOBS really had changed, and many people (myself included) felt the new product wasn't as good, once we finally got our hands on it. In a situation like this, you will always get doomsday prophets, as well as people who disdain any or all speculation. A measured approach between the two - cautious speculation with the understanding that any scenario is possible - seems the most sensible.

[koso]

SECONDLY AND THIS FROM ANOTHER GILLETTE FRIEND....

QUESTION: "WHY DOES GILLETTE CHARGE SOOOO MUCH FOR FUSION BLADES?"

ANSWER: "BECUASE WE CAN!" :thumbdown:thumbdown:thumbdown



Must be why Warren Buffet loves Gillette as much as he does (or did, before the merger).

Same principle Bill Gates used:

1. Make something they gotta have
2. Charge through the nose for it
3. Profit

[masonjarjar]

Well, I have had one beef with AOS. They only sell a limited range of shaving products with a heavy emphasis on their own products. They would do much better as a retailer if they sold a range of top quality shaving products. Just think if you had a brick and mortar store selling Penhaligons, D.R. Harris, MWF, and Truffitt & Hill products that you can walk in and check the scents. They could still sell their own brand, too. Maybe P&G will consider this change.

I have a few AOS products and they are decent, but AOS does not show up on my radar screen much at all. Also, when I visit their stores at the mall, it is literally empty of customers 90% of the time.

Wouldn't that be like Burger King selling Big Macs?

[HoratioCaine]

Wouldn't that be like Burger King selling Big Macs?

Up to a point. Truefitt & Hill shops sell a wide range of other shaving brands, such as Caswell-Massey, Coates (back when they were still available) and Castle Forbes. But they don't sell Trumper, because Trumper's business model is too close to their own, and is thus viewed as direct competition. The first AOS shop existed before the AOS brand, and back then, about the only things it did carry were the old English brands. There was a time when Malka tried to talk people into buying his products when they had handwritten labels on them - a real mom-and-pop kind of thing. As the brand took off, I guess he decided it was in his interest to make his store a place to emphasize his own products, so he de-emphasized or eliminated all others.

[noctilux]

so, two years later, what's the verdict?


v.

[dharasick]

So, four years later, what's the verdict? Who can bring us up to speed from the last four years?

[Curly]

Thread necro!

[dharasick]

Don't hate me! I reread through a lot of this today and am curious of opinions about AoS now, especially that the dreaded reformulations finally occurred.

[ouch]

So, four years later, what's the verdict? Who can bring us up to speed from the last four years?

Well for one, the guy who originally resurrected this thread in post #117 has been thrown into a stinky dumpster.

[Ducati Scotty]

Reformulations aside, I guess this is where they got the money to open all their brick and mortar shops.

Scott

[Bubblehead]

From what I've read here over the years, the verdict seems to me that AoS is at least as good as they were pre-P&G, if not better. It's not a unanimous decision, nothing on this forum ever is, but I think that's the predominant opinion expressed here. And if I'm wrong, well whatever, because there's more than enough men outside B&B to solidify AoS' place in the free market as a strong player.

[Casca Dura]

They have good products and I enjoy walking into a store and sampling the items. They are, however, a little over priced. I have found the sales people in the Philadelphia store to be quite knowledgeable and helpful. I like their stuff.