Straight Razor Balance

[BillEllis]

Ok, boys... this is not intended to embarrass anyone. That being said, some things are presented inaccurately and some things are just flat out stupid. This would qualify as both.

I'm sure you have seen references to a razor's balance being represented as seen in this photo. This is NOT, let me repeat that... this is NOT how to judge ANY razor's balance.

It doesn't work for knives either. Folks who insist that this is the way it is done are just wrong. It's like saying chocolate milk comes from cows that eat Hershey's candy bars.


A razor's balance can best be determined by how easily the razor is maneuvered around your face without lopping off body parts in the process. A razor's "good" balance can change simply by how you hold it.

The trick is to find the best possible way to hold the razor as you shave. I use probably 6/7 holding positions to shave. When I trim my mustache, I practically hold the darn thing like I would a butter knife as I'm ready to scoop peanut butter out of a jar. So, basically, balance is best defined as how it feels in your hand as you use it.

With that said, some razors have no balance no matter where you hold the darn thing, yet they may very well pass the test represented by the photo.

I will post 4 more photos showing just a couple possible holding positions. And remember...


Razor balance is not a teter-totter

[jrcrow79]

purty..I would put jack n jill figures on eachside!..:thumbup1:

[BillEllis]

Here are some holding positions for a straight razor. Each of these positions can change the balance of any razor. Don't think you have to hold a razor in a specific position to get a good shave. The point is to be able to scurry around your face like a Ninja without shredding meat or dropping your razor.

[paul.c]

So a knife's balance is also determined by its maneuverability and ease of use/feel in the hand? I am not very knowledgable about knives, and have always wondered what it meant when said that one was well ballanced.

[Sullybob]

Thanks Bill. I also use many different grips while shaving.

Nice razor also. USMC gotta love it.

[Seraphim]

Good point!



Two of the little mentioned, and often overlooked grips are as follows for the WTG and ATG......

Balance maybe aint so great, but it makes you feel like a man!

I mean, they put them handles on there for a resun' don't they???:rolleyes:

[Fnord5]

Good point!



Two of the little mentioned, and often overlooked grips are as follows for the WTG and ATG......

Balance maybe aint so great, but it makes you feel like a man!

I mean, they put them handles on there for a resun' don't they???:rolleyes:

I use that grip for shaving my back! :laugh:

[Seraphim]

I use that grip for shaving my back! :laugh:

Jeesh! You better have tight pins for that little trick!:eek:

[weevil]

Seraphim,

Er, your second photo--what's that red stuff? Or don't we want to know?

It looks like something they'd find on CSI.

[Sullybob]

Seraphim,

Er, your second photo--what's that red stuff? Or don't we want to know?

It looks like something they'd find on CSI.

Markings for a thumb notch?

[Seraphim]

Markings for a thumb notch?

I would never do such a thing!!!

[jkh]

It's like saying chocolate milk comes from cows that eat Hershey's candy bars.

Ack! Lied to all these years. Bill, next you're going to tell me there isn't an Easter Bunny or Santa Claus? :tongue_sm

Thanks for the info!

[mparker762]

I love those old Clauss USMCs.

[Sullybob]

I would never do such a thing!!!

Two words.

Bucket seat :biggrin:

[SavantStrike]

So a knife's balance is also determined by its maneuverability and ease of use/feel in the hand? I am not very knowledgable about knives, and have always wondered what it meant when said that one was well ballanced.

Depends. I'm pretty sure for certain knives balance refers more to whether or not the pointy end is actually going to hit the target...

[silvanos]

Great post Bill, informative as always. I've always held, as someone who cooks professionally, that the balance trick with a chef's knife is pretty darn accurate as to how balanced a knife is, due to the fact we hold them pinched right there in the center.

[Thebigspendur]

The bottom line with balance is if you hold the razor for shaving whatever way you do it and the weight in the scales is such that the razor just wants to torque away from you as you shave. That's bad balance. I find the closer to being neutral the balance is the more maneuverable the razor is on the face.

[BillEllis]

Good point!



Two of the little mentioned, and often overlooked grips are as follows for the WTG and ATG......

Balance maybe aint so great, but it makes you feel like a man!

I mean, they put them handles on there for a resun' don't they???:rolleyes:It's good to see a sense of humor. :biggrin: And the way you are demonstrating your grip, you could definitely make a case for actually calling the part you are holding a "handle". However, some folks may not really know the reason razors really do have scales.

They are primarily there for the protection of the blade and also to prevent injuries to the user as he reaches in the drawer to pick it up. Additionally, they create that "balance" I referred to at the beginning of this thread. The correlation between the position of a shaver's preferred grip and the degree that the scales are spread open contribute to that perfect shaving balance we all enjoy. A different holding position would require either closing the scales some or opening them wider to maintain the optimum balance.

Just don't brag to your buddies how well your razor is balanced by holding your finger under the pivot pin as it's all stretched out. It would tell them how little you know about razors. (the word you is made in reference to everyone)

[Seraphim]

I made that comment, as Ebayers often refer to them as "handles", and usually that "they fit great in your hand", or some such...

I have been known to post "balance" pics myself....

You can see how the balance point is moved towards the pivot with the scales open, and then right up to the shoulder when the scales are ina "normal" position.

[Fnord5]

:eek: a wapi!

I have to admit, I was un-educated about what Balance actually meant for razors.

But I did know that the scales are there to protect the blade. :biggrin:

[Seraphim]

:eek: a wapi!

I have to admit, I was un-educated about what Balance actually meant for razors.

But I did know that the scales are there to protect the blade. :biggrin:

Then why are they called "scales"?:rolleyes:

[BillEllis]

I made that comment, as Ebayers often refer to them as "handles", and usually that "they fit great in your hand", or some such...

I have been known to post "balance" pics myself....

You can see how the balance point is moved to wards the pivot with the scales open, and then right up to the shoulder when the scales are in a "normal" position.
I know you were just kidding around with those two photos to get a laugh. However, some guys may actually not know that neither of those shots has anything to do with the practical balance of a razor as it relates to shaving, and, might even think you were serious. Shaving balance is what counts, not how you can make a razor dangle like you would with a spoon on the nose.

So, to set the record straight, guys, when you run across anyone who genuinely wants to convince you that you can test the balance of a razor with parlor-trick photos like Seraphim's obvious illustrations of humor, then I have some land in Cuba to sell you.

On the other hand, if you want to call them handles, you go right ahead. I'm still gonna call them scales. Po-tay-toe... po-tah-toe... no big deal. Razor balance... different story.

[Seraphim]

I know you were just kidding around with those two photos to get a laugh. However, some guys may actually not know that neither of those shots has anything to do with the practical balance of a razor as it relates to shaving, and, might even think you were serious. Shaving balance is what counts, not how you can make a razor dangle like you would with a spoon on the nose.

So, to set the record straight, guys, when you run across anyone who genuinely wants to convince you that you can test the balance of a razor with parlor-trick photos like Seraphim's obvious illustrations of humor, then I have some land in Cuba to sell you.

On the other hand, if you want to call them handles, you go right ahead. I'm still gonna call them scales. Po-tay-toe... po-tah-toe... no big deal. Razor balance... different story.


Well, now hold on just a second---while a demonstartion like the pics I showed, do not in themselves necessarily show the absolute balance of a razor, it is not completely worthless either.

Those pics are of a rescaled Wapi. The stock, stainless Wapi scales weigh in at 25 grams, the plastic ones pictured weigh only 15grams. The Wapi is not a particularly beefy blade, and thus the heavier scales definitely made it "unbalanced" in my opinion. I don't think the "stock" Wapi could even pass the balance at the pivot point parlor trick "test" (ala pic#1).

Then again, I have some nice wedges that are definitly "blade heavy", and I do rather like that feel. They would probably fail the parlor trick test as well, but towards the blade side of things.

In summary: yeah, pics like that don't tell the whole story, but it is the only "empirical" data we can post to show a razors balance, because we each may have a differing opinion on how we like a razor to feel in the hand, the balance each of us may prefer. Some may like a very heavy blade with light scales, and would say that razor had "good balance", heck some folks even like the way a stock Wapi feels. There's no accounting for taste:huh:

Some folks even like buying property in Cuba!

[BillEllis]

...while a demonstartion like the pics I showed, do not in themselves necessarily show the absolute balance of a razor, it is not completely worthless either.Actually... they are.

Unfortunately, pics like those only perpetuate the fallacy that a razor's balance can be evaluated while it slowly modulates over a fulcrum... no matter where the fabricated/adjusted fulcrum is chosen to make the demonstration. There is no more value to that demonstration than there is to show a spoon balanced on the nose only to say that you have a balanced spoon. I think I already mentioned something like that.

Where you may be confused is thinking that this is a debatable and revolving issue where all answers have some validity and no conclusion can be wrong. Or thinking that all opinions count, even if they are not backed up with a lot of experience or valid reference. Just because a person thinks something makes sense, doesn't necessarily mean his bucket holds water. Sorry, but your bucket has a hole in it.

I actually tried to present my initial responses so that it would not embarrass you for your interjection of flat-out nonsense by interjecting some humor. This is not a personal attack... it is rather a strong rebuttal to your premise that a person could gage the balance of any razor by resting it on a random fulcrum and showing how much the blade tilts one way or the other off of a horizontal axis.

Helping the shaving community with useful information is a good thing, but you need to be sure that the information you provide is accurate. Do you have reference from any valid source to support your premises? Or, if not, then can you tell us just how many years of experience you have with the use of straight razors to base such claims? Using any of the photos you refer to, can you tell us if any of the subject razors are indeed balanced for optimum shaving because of the fulcrum positioning in which it was photographed? No... you can't.


In summary: yeah, pics like that don't tell the whole story, but it is the only "empirical" data we can post to show a razors balance...Sorry, nothing could be farther from the truth. Those photos are nothing more than parlor tricks.

I will repeat what razor balance entails... while basing this information on collecting knives and razors for about 54 years now, and making them for 18 years.

Basically, balance is best defined as how it feels in your hand as you use it and being able to maneuver it about the face without the razor feeling unwieldy in the process. This balance can change simply by holding it in different shaving positions between the thumb and fingers and by opening/closing the scales a few degrees. It is certainly subjective and the balance of a single razor can draw various opinions of "good balance" from whoever uses it. Your "balance" photos would not have a single thing to do with any of that.


Balance is not a teter-totter

[Seraphim]

Well, now we're getting somewhere!

#1-Go ahead and embarrass me!:tongue:
I don't take myself all that seriously, I enjoy the discussions here for what they are: discussions about a hobby we all like. Not a subject to get too rilled up about, so ceratinly no offense is taken on my part.

#2- I think I pretty much agree with your assertions in regards to balance as you laid them out in your original post 100%. I'm not trying to defend balance photos here, just trying to further discuss balance issues.

#3-
Or, if not, then can you tell us just how many years of experience you have with the use of straight razors to base such claims?
1 year experience:rolleyes:

Now then, what I'm trying to get at in this further discussion is this: yes, the balance point of the razor while in use can be varied by position of the scales, etc. So a teeter-totter (40 years of experience with those....I was on one just this past weekend with my 4 and two years olds:smile:) balance pic can show only one axis balance for a particular balance point. It will not show any of the torque forces casued by using the razor angled in relation to your face.



Using any of the photos you refer to, can you tell us if any of the subject razors are indeed balanced for optimum shaving because of the fulcrum positioning in which it was photographed? No... you can't.

But isn't there a definitive fulcrum present in each case, vis-a-vis where your thumb is located?
http://www.badgerandblade.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=45020&stc=1&d=1238612203
Wouldn't that razor feel best balanced, for that opened angle, if the center of gravity was right above your thumb?


What most balance pics don't show, is what happens if the razor does not pass the teeter-totter-test....here is the graphic results of a stock Wapi test:

[BillEllis]

Seraphim...

I'm actually a tad relieved that you did not take offense. Although I am very opinionated about a lot of things, I don't percieve myself as one who intentionally tries to embarrass anyone every time the opportunity presents itself. I much prefer that they do it all on their own without any assistance from me.

I think you hit on something, though, that can put this balance thing in yet another perspective.

Let's use the pic/comments you posted as the example in this case.


But isn't there a definitive fulcrum present in each case, vis-a-vis where your thumb is located?
http://www.badgerandblade.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=45020&stc=1&d=1238612203
Wouldn't that razor feel best balanced, for that opened angle, if the center of gravity was right above your thumb?

The positioning of the thumb can be a fulcrum, but it doesn't have to be. The ring finger could be the fulcrum... the index finger could be the fulcrum... yada. And that's why the "teter-totter" pics have no validity. And the comment about center of gravity is the key focal point to the entire discussion. The center of gravity does not (necessarily) equate to razor balance, which is why a photo of a razor resting on its natural fulcrum point is not an accurate method to illustrate razor balance.

[gugi]

The positioning of the thumb can be a fulcrum, but it doesn't have to be. The ring finger could be the fulcrum... the index finger could be the fulcrum... yada. And that's why the "teter-totter" pics have no validity. And the comment about center of gravity is the key focal point to the entire discussion. The center of gravity does not (necessarily) equate to razor balance, which is why a photo of a razor resting on its natural fulcrum point is not an accurate method to illustrate razor balance.

Interesting discussion. There is actually a bit of science to go with all this. There are just two relevant quantities, the center of mass (or gravity) and the momentum of inertia. Both are, of course, dependent on the configuration of the scales.

In order for the razor to be static the sum of all forces must add up to zero and the sum of all torques must add up to zero. The center of mass is the critical quantity here because badly designed razor requires a lot bigger forces exerted by the fingers so that the razor is balanced.

Thus the pictures are absolutely relevant for balance, The closer the center of mass is to the shank (where the grip is) in all possible scale configurations (among the ones used while shaving, of course as only those are relevant) the better the balance.

To illustrate that this is useful let me make a statement based just on this and nothing else:

The most imbalanced razor is one where the weight is split between the wedge and the tip of the razor. (yes not very realistic razor, but this is the worst case scenario)

For this extreme case any configuration in which the scales are not extended fully will cause significant deviation of the center of mass from the shank (where the razor is held) and this will necessitate rather large forces to hold the razor in place.

It's very easy to prove this for yourself, everybody can make a mock razor the way I described it and convince themselves.

I know that making strong statements like these is not popular, and I'm not picking up arguments for the sake of them. This is just basic science on high-school/introductory college level and while there are many wrong there's just a single right answer. Every engineering student has to learn these things.

[BillEllis]

Interesting discussion. There is actually a bit of science to go with all this. There are just two relevant quantities, the center of mass (or gravity) and the momentum of inertia. Both are, of course, dependent on the configuration of the scales. And this establishes what? That it sounds smart, so, by golly, it must be true? The only way this comment has credibility is if you were looking for the actual physical balance point/fulcrum rather than the shaving balance. Here's something they might not tell you in engineering school, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd year. They are two different things.

In order for the razor to be static the sum of all forces must add up to zero and the sum of all torques must add up to zero. The center of mass is the critical quantity here because badly designed razor requires a lot bigger forces exerted by the fingers so that the razor is balanced. I'm not trying to pick an argument, but that sure a sounds a little like it could be sorta like a lotta babble.

Thus the pictures are absolutely relevant for balance, For shaving balance they aren't. Not even close. No way, no how. Don't matter how long you spent wandering scholastic hallways... or how scientific you pretend to be, your premise couldn't be farther from fact. Nonsense like those "balance" pics just reinforces how little anyone who defends them really does know about the subject. How could you possibly attempt to submit a self-perceived scientific argument based on goof-ball pictures? Never mind, don't answer. The closer the center of mass is to the shank (where the grip is) in all possible scale configurations (among the ones used while shaving, of course as only those are relevant) the better the balance.

To illustrate that this is useful let me make a statement based just on this and nothing else:

The most imbalanced razor is one where the weight is split between the wedge and the tip of the razor. (yes not very realistic razor, but this is the worst case scenario)I just read those two sentences 5 times and still, it makes no sense whatsoever.

For this extreme case any configuration in which the scales are not extended fully will cause significant deviation of the center of mass from the shank (where the razor is held) and this will necessitate rather large forces to hold the razor in place. I don't even think you know what you just said. Don't bother with an English translation... I'm not interested

It's very easy to prove this for yourself, everybody can make a mock razor the way I described it and convince themselves. Gee, I wonder if I could make a mock up razor. Uhm.. I just don't know. It never occurred to me that I'd ever have to figure out razor balance or even if it is important. Maybe I could just take a pic of my customs spread out on my finger to find out how balanced they really are and provide a "certificate of balance" with every one I sell. Gotta put this all in perspective, don't ya know. (As a side note here, boys, I have never... repeat, never... tested a single knife or razor I have ever made for balance in this manner. Oh surprise!) In the future, though maybe I could dedicate a special page on my website touting "balanced" razors on my finger and proclaim, "See how well my razors are balanced!" I could just envision my credibility as a custom razor maker just blossoming to the heavens before it even hits the presses.

I know that making strong statements like these is not popular, and I'm not picking up arguments for the sake of them. They're not strong statements. they are false statements spread out with dashes of intentional insult. Saying you aren't picking up the arguments for the sake of them is hogwash. You've done it for years with me and it's not new. This is just basic science on high-school/introductory college level and while there are many wrong there's just a single right answer. Every engineering student has to learn these things. And with those statements, the coup de grace is deftly administered: I just knew I should not have made the choice to view this post since gugi is on my ignore list, and as usual, he reminds me here with his offering why I put him there.

Just don't fall for the bogus reasoning, boys. The fulcrum of balance for their theories change every time the angle relationship between the blade and scales change. Once you establish your preference for balance in your hand, it doesn't matter which way you tilt the razor... it's still balanced to your hand, the world axis, and to the shaving experience.

You can say a razor is blade heavy or scale heavy, but that still has nothing to do with shaving balance. To determine either one of those characteristics, you don't need a dorky picture to inform you. Well... I take that back. Some of you might.

gugi... no matter how you respond to this, I ain't reading another word you have to say. That gives you the opportunity to have the last word. Knock yourself out.

[gugi]

:001_rolle

[adamant]

I think the point gugi was trying to make is that in the extreme case where a significant amount of the weight of the razor is in the blade or scales, this may be uncomfortable to shave with since you would need to grip the razor more tightly , and the 'teeter totter' test would show this. I don't think anyone is saying that a successful teeter-totter means that the razor will definitely shave well, nor that an unsuccessful test is saying that it will not. Of course for all of this shaving hooey, YMMV.

[Fnord5]

I think the point gugi was trying to make is that in the extreme case where a significant amount of the weight of the razor is in the blade or scales, this may be uncomfortable to shave with since you would need to grip the razor more tightly , and the 'teeter totter' test would show this. I don't think anyone is saying that a successful teeter-totter means that the razor will definitely shave well, nor that an unsuccessful test is saying that it will not. Of course for all of this shaving hooey, YMMV.

In an extreme case, one would be shaving with an axe, not a razor.

Really, in the slight amount of weight in even the largest of wedge ground blades, is there honestly enough weight that your fingers cannot deal with it without notice? I have never once thought "gee, this razor is too heavy, I don't know if my fingers can hold it much longer"

[Seraphim]

I just tried putting some scales on a Tornblom, which is a rather light little razor. It did not pass the teeter-totter-test (it was scale heavy), I whipped the scales up into "shaving" position, and while it may have been able to be balanced fore and aft with some further scale twiddling, when angled off-axis, as if to come to a correct blade to face angle, the scales definitely provided some unwanted torque, and made the razor feel like caa-caa.

I found a lighter pair of scales, installed them, and the razor now passes the T.T.T. and it now feels better torque balanced as well.

Anyhow, you gotta have the right scales for any razor. If the Tornblom Teeter-Totter-Test turns terrible, the torque test truly trumps that trial.

[gugi]

yeah, 'axe' would be the way to describe the extreme version of highly unbalanced razor, i made up for the illustration.
the main point i am making is that balance is quantifiable and this could be done by using pictures.
my hypothesis is that the scientifically meaningful balance that can be measured by pictures is be exactly the same as the 'shaving balance' that Bill evaluates by shaving. of course there's only one way to prove/disprove this, and it's very unlikely to happen.

[Seraphim]

I made a CAD design of a Japanese style razor I had custom made. My design had the center of gravity (denoted by the three axis arrow cluster) located right at the thumbnotch (imagine that--me including a thumbnotch in a custom design!:rolleyes:). In this case, there are no adjustable scales, so the center of gravity is fixed. And it passed the TTT and the TT very well.

[BillEllis]

I just tried putting some scales on a Tornblom, which is a rather light little razor. It did not pass the teeter-totter-test (it was scale heavy), I whipped the scales up into "shaving" position, and while it may have been able to be balanced fore and aft with some further scale twiddling, when angled off-axis, as if to come to a correct blade to face angle, the scales definitely provided some unwanted torque, and made the razor feel like caa-caa.

I found a lighter pair of scales, installed them, and the razor now passes the T.T.T. and it now feels better torque balanced as well.

Anyhow, you gotta have the right scales for any razor. If the Tornblom Teeter-Totter-Test turns terrible, the torque test truly trumps that trial.Yeah, well... if you want to be touted for your teter-totter testing technique to twist truth... have at it.

I will stick with what I know and have had decades of experience with, and I'll not tarnish the reputation I have as a maker by endorsing foolish pictures that show absolutely nothing. As you gain more experience over the years, providing you are still doing it, you will undoubtedly eliminate those parlor-trick pics as any kind of marker that evaluates razor balance.

If you ever do catch on, I have a feeling you will be embarrassed that you ever tried to educate those who are really new at this and who might pass up on a very good razor because they tried your teter-totter test before making a purchase in which it failed. And if you don't wise up, that's ok with me too. Just remember that you are not helping anyone with your attempt at this erroneous form of guidance.

adamant... I can see the point you make. I'm only saying that it is a mistake to evaluate the practical shaving balance of a razor by opening it up and testing to see where the fulcrum is located. There are two things that can be accomplished with this test, I will admit... you can cut your fingers trying to catch it as it falls to the tile floor or you can wind up with a broken razor when you don't catch it. What does work is holding the razor as you would if you were going to shave with it. By doing this, you can quickly evaluate whether the razor is blade/scale heavy. At that point, you can adjust the grip up or down the spine to see if it feels right in your hand. With some razors, it matters not where you hold them... they just don't "feel" right. An example you may relate to would be the Wapi with the steel scales. It is not a balanced razor.

[BillEllis]

I made a CAD design of a Japanese style razor I had custom made. My design had the center of gravity (denoted by the three axis arrow cluster) located right at the thumbnotch (imagine that--me including a thumbnotch in a custom design!:rolleyes:). In this case, there are no adjustable scales, so the center of gravity is fixed. And it passed the TTT and the TT very well.And it passed this test before or after you interjected your own brand of artistic license by using a drum sander on a rotary tool for the additional notch on top? If it passed before and after... how could that be? I say that because I recall the "new" notch not falling where your cute little arrow cluster is depicted.

One more question. If it was such a balanced razor, why ya selling/sold it? All you managed to do is find the fulcrum with your test, nothing more. That doesn't mean your test qualifies a razor as being balanced just as well as it does not mean it is imbalanced as a shaving instrument if it fails. What your test proves is that it is a meaningless test. And I'm saying to everyone that teter-totter pics are worthless. That ain't changin'...


https://home.comcast.net/~cherylellis01/bill/hammer.gif.gif

[Bertilak]

Can I look at this from a different perspective? What specifications could one give to a craftsman to tell him how to construct a "balanced" razor?

There are (at least) two ways specify things: Functional specification vs. design specification.

A functional specification tells how something should behave.
A design specification tells how something should be made.

I think what Mr. Ellis has been using as an evaluation criteria is akin to the functional specification: balance is a matter of behavior which takes some acquired experience to evaluate. This is a functional description and a subjective one at that.

I think it would be interesting to hear what a design specification would look like and how the craftsman could, on his own, objectively assure himself that he had met that specification for a "balanced" razor.

[gugi]

I think it would be interesting to hear what a design specification would look like and how the craftsman could, on his own, objectively assure himself that he had met that specification for a "balanced" razor.

I am pretty sure that most custom razor makers will not make a razor from design specification by the customer. Bill has said explicitly he has no interest whatsoever in doing it.
Seraphim's razor may be one of the few examples of something being actually made to spec, but Russel is not a traditional custom maker and iirc he has a formal engineer training, which I think makes a big difference. But it's probably more of an academic question at this point.

Since this has gotten so heated, I will have to conduct my own experiment sometime. Just need to find half a day to build the set up and collect the data, the theory part is straightforward and coding it up should take me less than 15 min, the analysis would be fraction of a second.

[Seraphim]

And it passed this test before or after you interjected your own brand of artistic license by using a drum sander on a rotary tool for the additional notch on top? If it passed before and after... how could that be? I say that because I recall the "new" notch not falling where your cute little arrow cluster is depicted.

One more question. If it was such a balanced razor, why ya selling/sold it? All you managed to do is find the fulcrum with your test, nothing more. That doesn't mean your test qualifies a razor as being balanced just as well as it does not mean it is imbalanced as a shaving instrument if it fails. What your test proves is that it is a meaningless test. And I'm saying to everyone that teter-totter pics are worthless. That ain't changin'...


https://home.comcast.net/~cherylellis01/bill/hammer.gif.gif


Here's where the notch falls:
http://www.straightrazorplace.com/forums/attachments/show-tell/17049d1226354930-kansas-kamisori-topside-notch-alternate-view.jpg

here's the new cute arrow cluster:tongue:
http://www.badgerandblade.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=46264&stc=1&d=1239388862

The amount of material removed was quite small, and it was fairly close to the center of gravity, so that's why it didn't move by much.

I sold it because my shave den does not lend itself to an open blade razor like that (small counter space, small kids in the house). I prefer one with scales, and so sold this razor to fund a new one:biggrin: Out with the old, in with the new...all part of the Illness...:thumbup1: I also sold off a vintage Wusthof, which was no slouch either!



Now, let me ask you a question:

Is the razor you show in your original pic a well balanced razor?

[BillEllis]

Can I look at this from a different perspective? What specifications could one give to a craftsman to tell him how to construct a "balanced" razor?

There are (at least) two ways specify things: Functional specification vs. design specification.

A functional specification tells how something should behave.
A design specification tells how something should be made.

I think what Mr. Ellis has been using as an evaluation criteria is akin to the functional specification: balance is a matter of behavior which takes some acquired experience to evaluate. This is a functional description and a subjective one at that.

I think it would be interesting to hear what a design specification would look like and how the craftsman could, on his own, objectively assure himself that he had met that specification for a "balanced" razor.A very valid set of questions. And much harder to answer than having to merely discount teter-totter pics as being beneficial in any way to the process.

I don't actually think custom makers have necessarily put an inordinate amount of thought into whether their razors balance perfectly. I think most of the custom makers started out just wanting to make something pleasing to the eye that will mow down whiskers with some efficiency. As long as there wasn't a hugh weight difference between the blade and the scales, a modified grip on the tang would accomplish any satisfactory balance needed for a good shaving experience with most razors.

When I am in the process of manufacturing a custom razor, I mostly stick with prototype shapes that have worked well for me before. They have been trial and error projects as well as efforts in mimicing past successes. My humpback and the stogie designs are two that work well in conjunction with the scale shape I designed that goes with them. Although I don't weigh my blades or scales, I just kinda know what works through the experience of making several hundred. If a person does several hundred of anything, they do gain the experience necessary to at least not do things that won't work.

One of the things that affects balance proportionally is the relationship between the positioning of the pivot hole in the tang to the weight of the scales. A pivot closer to the heel of the blade can take a heaver set of scales, for instance. Rather than change pivot hole positions, I usually just modify the scales to suit the blade as it is. If I am using a light material, I may line the scales with aluminum or fiber material. If I use cocobolo or other dense woods, I will not use liners.

If you were to commission a razor from a maker who does not shave with one, I would suggest that you send him a standard vintage blade for which you like the balance and get him to see how it goes together. Tell him try to stay proportional to the model razor. A lot of custom knifemakers will shy away from straights for two primary reasons. They must be ground very thin and the maker must also know how to sharpen it when it's done.

Although it's not rocket science to hone a razor, knifemakers won't venture into something they don't know how to do. Most makers also use a grinder similar to mine in which one side of the blade is done at a time. Since the razor has to undergo final grinding after heat treat to avoid blade warping, the process is slow and tedious. A single mistake or a tad too much heat from a dull sanding belt can quickly turn the blade blue. That dreaded blue color even in the tinyest of spots signifies that the temper has been lost and the blade becomes worthless.

In general... the scales are lighter than the blade. As long as the scales look more like a shoe to the blade than galoshes, you should be ok.

[BillEllis]

The amount of material removed was quite small, and it was fairly close to the center of gravity, so that's why it didn't move by much.
But it moved. And if you can still claim the razor is balanced in either position, it would hold true that pictures illustrating the contradiction don't amount to a hill of beans... which is my whole point.




Is the razor you show in your original pic a well balanced razor?I know exactly where you are headed with that one and it's not going to work for you. I've already said why, and I'm not going to keep repeating it. Just go back in the thread and find it yourself. To especially illustrate my point, I will have to let you in on a little secret. I actually forced the razor to balance on my finger at that specific point with a bit of torque from my finger and I took the pic at a lower angle to hide the fact that the razor was slightly tilted off of a horizontal axis.

I chose that particular spot because that is where most guys automatically go to when they think they are going to evaluate knife/razor balance. Guys do it with knives all the time at knife shows. Usually under the veil of expressionless interest, I'm laughing my ass off on the inside as they do it.

I've come to one more conclusion. You are not trying to learn anything here. Perhaps it's because you think you already know and you have now decided to merely yank my chain. Your insistance with this nonsense doesn't help out the new guy one bit. Hopefully most of them will be bright enough not to go along with it.

[Seraphim]

Bill, I am trying to have a discussion with you and others about balance issues. It is not an argument, at least I am not approaching it as such.

I'm not yanking your chain, I'm asking questions, and I also have perhaps a different point of view than you do. If we all knew as much as everyone else around us, we wouldn't have a need to talk with anyone about anything.

I have a great deal of respect for you as a craftsman, and have no reason to not respect you as a person either, so I ask the questions I'm asking out of Socratical method of "question everything" and finding out the answers. I'm not trying to see how high I can get your blood pressure!

I would also say that a discussion about an issue, with input from both sides is what is most helpful to someone looking to glean something of value from a forum such as this.


And yes, you saw where I was going with my question about your razor, but let me put it another way: have you ever had a razor that failed the teeter-totter-test towards the scales side ever then turn out to be a well balanced razor?

[GsSixgun]

Ok, boys... this is not intended to embarrass anyone. That being said, some things are presented inaccurately and some things are just flat out stupid. This would qualify as both.

Actually that was a rather rude opening statement... IMHO

I'm sure you have seen references to a razor's balance being represented as seen in this photo. This is NOT, let me repeat that... this is NOT how to judge ANY razor's balance.

Actually that is just your, "not so humble opinion", and a few people have already disagreed with you in this thread including me......
You can use it as a starting point, nobody ever claimed it to be a perfect indicator....but at least it is an indicator.... IMHO

It doesn't work for knives either. Folks who insist that this is the way it is done are just wrong. It's like saying chocolate milk comes from cows that eat Hershey's candy bars.

I don't do knives, nor do I shave with them, so it is of no consequence to me... IMHO


A razor's balance can best be determined by how easily the razor is maneuvered around your face without lopping off body parts in the process. A razor's "good" balance can change simply by how you hold it.

Of course it can change, but if you start with a balance point in the spot where you are holding the razor it would sure be easier.... IMHO

The trick is to find the best possible way to hold the razor as you shave. I use probably 6/7 holding positions to shave. When I trim my mustache, I practically hold the darn thing like I would a butter knife as I'm ready to scoop peanut butter out of a jar. So, basically, balance is best defined as how it feels in your hand as you use it.

The trick is to take a little more time and skill, and build the scales to balance at the tang so that the person doing the shaving has a fighting chance of consistency while shaving with the razor... It really isn't that hard to do it right, and give people a starting balance, in the same spot every time unless the builder is more concerned with making pretty razors instead of properly functioning razors IMHO ... Oh, how do I know that's the way it should be??? This part is not my opinion, just take the time to check some vintage razors most will balance to the tang, not all I am sure, but most will

With that said, some razors have no balance no matter where you hold the darn thing, yet they may very well pass the test represented by the photo.

OMG we agree. the way you are balancing that razor in the photo on the pad of yer finger, is absolutely useless, in yours and my humble opinions...

I used to do that too, but I then moved to the edge of the finger and then again to a wooden dowel so it was more accurate.... IMHO...

You know, I wasn't even going to bother with posting here on this thread, but I guess I am making my opinion known...It is rather easy to balance them so why not start someplace????

[BillEllis]

Ok, boys... this is not intended to embarrass anyone. That being said, some things are presented inaccurately and some things are just flat out stupid. This would qualify as both.

Actually that was a rather rude opening statement... IMHO

I'm sure you have seen references to a razor's balance being represented as seen in this photo. This is NOT, let me repeat that... this is NOT how to judge ANY razor's balance.

Actually that is just your, "not so humble opinion", and a few people have already disagreed with you in this thread including me......
You can use it as a starting point, nobody ever claimed it to be a perfect indicator....but at least it is an indicator.... IMHO

It doesn't work for knives either. Folks who insist that this is the way it is done are just wrong. It's like saying chocolate milk comes from cows that eat Hershey's candy bars.

I don't do knives, nor do I shave with them, so it is of no consequence to me... IMHO


A razor's balance can best be determined by how easily the razor is maneuvered around your face without lopping off body parts in the process. A razor's "good" balance can change simply by how you hold it.

Of course it can change, but if you start with a balance point in the spot where you are holding the razor it would sure be easier.... IMHO

The trick is to find the best possible way to hold the razor as you shave. I use probably 6/7 holding positions to shave. When I trim my mustache, I practically hold the darn thing like I would a butter knife as I'm ready to scoop peanut butter out of a jar. So, basically, balance is best defined as how it feels in your hand as you use it.

The trick is to take a little more time and skill, and build the scales to balance at the tang so that the person doing the shaving has a fighting chance of consistency while shaving with the razor... It really isn't that hard to do it right, and give people a starting balance, in the same spot every time unless the builder is more concerned with making pretty razors instead of properly functioning razors IMHO ... Oh, how do I know that's the way it should be??? This part is not my opinion, just take the time to check some vintage razors most will balance to the tang, not all I am sure, but most will

With that said, some razors have no balance no matter where you hold the darn thing, yet they may very well pass the test represented by the photo.

OMG we agree. the way you are balancing that razor in the photo on the pad of yer finger, is absolutely useless, in yours and my humble opinions...

I used to do that too, but I then moved to the edge of the finger and then again to a wooden dowel so it was more accurate.... IMHO...

You know, I wasn't even going to bother with posting here on this thread, but I guess I am making my opinion known...It is rather easy to balance them so why not start someplace????
I have no idea why you are intentionally trying to provoke me, Glen, or why you decided to bother posting as you indicated. It's nice to see that you have so many innacccurate humble opinions though. Maybe some day I'll learn as much about razors as you... :rolleyes:

[GsSixgun]

The only time you see posts like this from me Bill, is when somebody decides that, "I AM RIGHT, PERIOD END OF STORY"

There is no "right" in this hobby.... there are a ton of peoples opinions, in this instance, we disagree...
You have your opinion and I have mine, but when it is all said and done they are just our opinions...

Don't take it personal, I know I won't....

[GsSixgun]

Maybe some day I'll learn as much about razors as you... :rolleyes:

I actually after that statement, seriously doubt that you ever will, because you are not learning anymore, you think you know it all, as seen in this thread...

Therefore, yes I will inevitably know more about razors then you, because I am still willing to learn....

[BillEllis]

I actually after that statement, seriously doubt that you ever will, because you are not learning anymore, you think you know it all, as seen in this thread...

Therefore, yes I will inevitably know more about razors then you, because I am still willing to learn....No, I don't know it all. It only seems that way to the folks who don't know much at all.

[SavantStrike]

This thread is turning ugly again :eek:

All I know is that there is contention as to what the "correct" view is here, and I'm just a humble newbie afraid of getting caught in the crossfire :blush:. I also don't think there has been a single post in this thread that has been so poorly articulated as to have been devoid of all usefulness. Would it be possible to tone down the thread just a notch and we could talk this out like gentlemen?

There isn't a single gentleman who has posted in this thread who I wouldn't miss dearly if he stopped posting on B&B, but I've seen forums lose members over a lot less (apparently bruised egos are bad for morale :lol:). I don't want that to happen. I REALLY enjoy learning from you guys.

Chris

[Scotto]

Everyone in this thread better calm down and be civil. Either discuss things in a gentlemanly fashion or don't post at all.

[michael.scheller]

Everyone in this thread better calm down and be civil. Either discuss things in a gentlemanly fashion or don't post at all.

Okie Dokie..... crap. I just posted.:wink:

[BillEllis]

Everyone in this thread better calm down and be civil. Either discuss things in a gentlemanly fashion or don't post at all.



No problem, Scotto.

I'm done... see ya

[balaban9331]

the balance of a str8 to me,would be more important if the scales were fixed in one position,like a knife or sword for instance.