Any Experienced campers out there?

[LJM4RSV]

I want to buy a 2man expedition tent but am unsure on which one to go for. It needs to be extremely lightweight. I've been looking at the Vango ultralite 200 and I absolutely love the dimensions and weight-it seems perfect but I have looked up online reviews and they are awful! Someone has said they woke up swimming in condensation! So if anyone has a Vango ultralite 200 please can you give a review.
The other one I'm thinking about is the Coleman Avior X2, which had great reviews, ok dimensions and weighs 2.4kg which is a bit heavier than I wanted. So if anyone has a Coleman Avior X2 can you please give a review.
Also I can't choose between a Thermarest Trail Lite at £54.99 and a Thermarest Prolite 3 at £74.99 which do you think I should go for and why?

[thunderball]

Could you tell us in what conditions you are planning on camping? A night at the beach? A week on a bike trip? Mud? Snow? Walking? Canoeing? Budget? Keep in mind also that most '2-man' tents are really more like 1.5 man tents. I've been camping since I was a wee 'un and I'm sure others will chime in if you provide more details of what you need. :smile:

[LJM4RSV]

I want to walk the Cornish coast with my fiancé in the summer, but also use it with my friend all year round. But it needs to be light enough to carry easily and up steep cliffs. Also money isn't too much of a problem as I get 30% staff discount at blacks.

[soapbox]

I've got a ProLite 4 mat and it's as comfortable as any mat I've used, including a thicker Thermarest. The weight and packed size can't be beat.

[LJM4RSV]

So you would choose the Prolite 3 over the Trail Lite? Can you feel the ground through the Prolite? Because that's the main thing I'm afraid of.

[soapbox]

So you would choose the Prolite 3 over the Trail Lite? Can you feel the ground through the Prolite? Because that's the main thing I'm afraid of.

(a) don't be afraid of feeling the ground! :001_smile
(b) I think both mats are great. The prolite 4 (my current carry) has 1.5" of padding when inflated. That's enough for me, but it was a bit pricey. The prolite 3 I think has 1" of padding? That might be a tad thin for my bones.

When camping, I have been sleeping on inflated Thermarest pads for a very long time (since 1984 I think?) and have always been pleased by their performance. I think for outings where you have a non-concrete or non-jagged-rock sleeping surface that the prolite would be a better bet (less weight), but if you need the extra padding, then shoulder the extra grams and take the venerable Trail Lite.

[Hawkeye5]

At one time I did quite a bit of backpacking. Comfort is relative and, while important, some stiffness and being tired are temporary and go with the territory. Knee damage or foot problems may not be temporary and can end your walking. Weight is more important. Choose what ever is lighter.

[Confuzius]

What no blue foam option? :-P
I just checked out the thermarest site, It's been a while... Seeing some of the light weight options that they have I'm amazed now that I brough my standard camprest through so much whitewater. Granted the average portage is less than a full backpacking trip.

It's been about 10 years since my last trip and we've got one scheduled for may... Yet another AD to struggle with now =\

[_JP_]

I'm not familiar with the products you mention, but I would go with light weight when backpacking. Extra comfort is no good if it is a pain to carry.

[Rorschuck]

Ditch the tent. Ditch the pads. Get a Hennesy Hammock (http://hennessyhammock.com/). Sleep better than you do at home.

1 pound 15 ounces. Get yourself a Western Mountaineering bag (or try to convince your buddy Rorschuck to make you a custom down bag) and one of these (http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/thinlight.html)for the colder nights and you're golden.

NB: Not for winter use without some modifications.

PS: I fully admit to being a little bit of a zealot.

[mk-ultra]

..

[LJM4RSV]

Ditch the tent. Ditch the pads. Get a Hennesy Hammock (http://hennessyhammock.com/). Sleep better than you do at home.

1 pound 15 ounces. Get yourself a Western Mountaineering bag (or try to convince your buddy Rorschuck to make you a custom down bag)

The hammock looks cool although I think I would get a little cold and if there was a storm I'd be freakin out more than I would be in a tent! Plus to be honest I'm kinda afraid of the dark! (yeh I know, a wimp like me shouldn't go camping then!)

I have been admiring some polish down sleeping bags (warm but compact!) but my stepdad told me I shouldn't have a down bag as I'm allergic to feathers! So now have to rethink about sleeping bag!

But cheers for the advice! XD

[_JP_]

There's nothing in the dark that isn't there in the light.

Verify your allergy. There are hypoallergenic sleeping bags that are either synthetic fill or down filled.

[Hreafn]

I use a blue foam mat its about half inch thick, it works great. I never back packed much would set up in the same place over the weekend.

[Bristlingbeardofodin]

I also just use a blue foam mat and it works for me. Wish I could offer more help but I haven't tried the products you mentioned.

[richmondesi]

I've been camping numerous times with only one kind of experience: BAD

The idea of camping is great. However, in the hot, sticky, mosquito infested places that I have been, execution falls short of the often fantasized about camping trip.
:frown:

[Rorschuck]

On the hammock: it's definitely strange, but it's just like being in a tent. There's a fly overhead, with a bugnet inside. It can be pitched very low to the ground and the side tieouts help keep it steady. But it's definitely different.

You use the word "ultralight", and that's a dangerous word: the nutters (like me) come out of the woodwork. :biggrin:

To me, an ultralight tent is under 3.5 pounds for two people. For one, anything more than 2 pounds and 3 ounces or so isn't ultralight. The Coleman you're looking at (aside from being a brand I would personally stay away from in a tent unless it's for very casual (ie, car) camping) is 4 pounds, 6 ounces so far as I can tell. Factor in manufacturing variance (something also more likely to be an issue with Coleman) and that sucker could be up to 5 pounds!

You might want to look at the offerings from Big Agnes (http://www.bigagnes.com/); they make a good product at a fair price and they're pretty light, to boot.

A bit more expensive, but certainly lighter, is Big Sky Products (http://bigskyproducts.com). Some may require that you have trekking poles (a common thing in the UL community), some not. They had some growing pains/order fulfillment issues at first but it seems they've gotten past that.

It's hard to suggest a specific item without knowing how much you want/value the following things:

- Weight
- Price
- Durability

Pretty much everything compromises on one or more of those, you just need to decide which you want most. For me, weight is the only concern. I know how to care for my gear, so durability isn't an issue (which means I can go with superlight fabrics, making the stuff even lighter), and price isn't a hige concern; in terms of value, a WM bag that will last 20 years for $300 is practically a steal compared to a $120 synthetic that will last 7 at best (plus not be nearly as fun to use; it's still a joy to see the purple sheen of my 24-ounce MegaLite come pouring out of something smaller than a loaf of bread, knowing I'll be cozy well into the teens).

With the segue to bags complete, a couple of notes on natural sleeping bag fills:

- the down used in bags that use a quality fill (primarily gauged by "fill power", or how much space 1 ounce takes up after applying a standardized procedure utilizing some cylinders and and some mass) is quite different from feathers. You know what a feather looks like, of course; down looks more like little stringy puffballs. This page (http://knol.google.com/k/down-and-feather-company/how-to-choose-down-vs-feather-pillows/17yz1o8qoe073/2#)has pictures of each. The best down bags (750 - 800 for the fill power) have fewer than 5% feathers.

- supposedly (I cannot back this up with hard evidence), down and feathers themselves are not allergens; rather, it is dust and other stuff carried on them that people are allergic to. This can be avoided by going with the higher-quality bags, since they contain high-quality (and high fill-power) down; down at 800FP must be very very clean in order to be so springy and light.

Of course, really good down bags are roughly $300. But if you've carried a 4 pound synthetic for any length of time (a very light synthetic unless you are an ultralighter and use a quilt), a bag which invariably takes up about three gallon-jugs worth of space when compressed, you'll quickly come around once you see a down bag collapse to the size of a bread loaf (and weigh less than 2 pounds). It does not insulate worth a hoot when it's wet, but that's something that shouldn't happen and while it does take time to dry out completely, you can get it insulating again with a little work and care.

I strongly suggest going to a store and feeling some bags. Ask if you can stuff them, and then do it. Do one from Western Mountaineering, and one from any of the numerous synthetic makers that will ideally be using some flavor Polarguard or Primaloft (the latter not being likely in bags). Some of the synthetics are huge when stuffed. They may sell you on a "compression" stuff sack, but I think those are evil.

Of course, if you're not backpacking and actually carrying all this for miles at a stretch, it doesn't matter much and you'll be just as happy with a $50 bag as anything else.

Campmor actually has a midrange down bag (650 FP, probably) for $100 (last I knew) that's supposedly pretty darn decent.

PS: I'm really not a synthetic-hater. I have and use synthetics, and make bags/quilts and outerwear using Polarguard Delta and Primaloft; both are excellent insulators, fairly lightweight and fairly compressible. And, if you happen to get them soaked, they wring out fairly well and dry much more quickly than down. I don't take down on river trips.

[LJM4RSV]

WoW Rorschuck! That was a long explanation and very interesting! You really know a lot about all this. I work at Blacks www.blacks.co.uk but I haven't heard of the brands you have mentioned. And I know they're not in cotswolds, milletts, kountrykit, caracamp or mountain warehouse either which are the camping stores in the surrounding areas.

We sell Berghaus which I think is a great make (but we don't do tents or bags by them) TNF, good make but you pay partly for the label because it has now become a fashion statement.

Our main tent makes are Vango, Vaude, Coleman, Outwell, Karrimor, TNF and of course our own make Blacks. I can also go to Milletts where I get 30% discount and get Eurohike tents but tbh I don't really rate eurohike.

Our sleeping bags are Blacks, Coleman, Karrimor, Vango, TNF, Mountain Hardware, Ajungilak (good sleeping bags but all very large in size!) and Technicals which do a really nice down sleeping bag that is 620kg (our lightest bag!) and is 29X14cm which isn't bad!

I've noticed lots of tents with ultralite in their name but some are 3kilos!
Weight is the most important, money isn't so important as I can get 30%discount even on top of sale prices in blacks and milletts and as long as they're one of our usual suppliers I could probs persuade them to do a special order in, even if it isn't one of our usual designs.

Durability is fairly important, I don't want it to fall apart immediately but as I have easy access to re-proofing I don't need to worry so much about whether the fabric is actually fully waterproof or just has a DWR (Durable Water Repellent) coating which I can just keep replacing. Although I would prefer one with a hydrostatic head of at least 3000 but will settle for 2000.
Also a semi-geodesic design would be good so it will be sturdy and not warp like some tents do.

Yeah, value for money isn't necessarily the cheapest.

I'm not really sure about the allergy, my doctor just says I can't have feather pillows. But I have seen the packsize difference between down and synthetic and without a doubt down packs down smaller although apparently it's best to keep it out for as long as possible. We sell compression sacks but I have never liked the look of them (maybe it's just our one's but they are really fiddly to put on and most customers have no idea how to use them either!)

So do you have your own outdoor business then?

[Mottern Man]

The heck you need a tent for.

Build an A Frame and put a tarp over it, then hammer it down with strings and steaks.

Now that is camping.

[Rorschuck]

WoW Rorschuck! That was a long explanation and very interesting! You really know a lot about all this. I work at Blacks www.blacks.co.uk but I haven't heard of the brands you have mentioned. And I know they're not in cotswolds, milletts, kountrykit, caracamp or mountain warehouse either which are the camping stores in the surrounding areas.


Ah! You're on the other side of the pond. The brands available there vs here will almost certainly vary. You might look into Montbell sleeping bags, which should be pretty common over there. Feathered Friends, while a US company, has a large Euro following, too.




So do you have your own outdoor business then?

No, I'm just a long-time enthusiast. I do make my own gear, though, and sometimes for other folks: mostly sleeping bags, quilts, camping hammocks, tarps, insulated vests/jackets/pants, and storage items.

[LJM4RSV]

I've never heard of either! TNF (The North Face) is the only American brand I know.

It's cool that you make your own! I wish I knew how to do that! Probably much cheaper and you can have it exactly how you want!

[sapito318]

I have been camping often, backpacking is my thing and I have found that cheap, 2-3 dollar blow up floating matresses work fine. They stay inflated and are cheap and light. And you could bring a second one as a backup. No tent recomedations, as I usually sleep outdoors if the weather is right.

[Edcculus]

I don't post here as often as I did, but I am an avid backpacker and would like to chime in. My treks range from 20 mile weekends to 80+ mile weeks. How long will you be hiking? The length of your trip will dictate the quality of gear you need.

Like others have said, if you are looking to go "ultralight", expect to pay some serious money. Also look to make some sacrifices. Hammock backpacking is great. Its a little strange at first. I've never slept so well on the first night than I did on a trip where we brought the hammocks along.

Right now, my favorite tent is the MSR Hubba (http://www.msrgear.com/tents/hubba.asp). The two person version is the Hubba Hubba (http://www.msrgear.com/tents/hubbahubba.asp). I've slept comftorably with a male hiking friend in the two person. It does help if you know the person. Its not like some two person tents where the only person you would ever want to sleep with in it is your girlfriend. This thing is a breeze to set up and take down. The pole system is just one big unit. Its all symetrical, so it doesn't matter what way you set it up.

I'm also a huge fan of my new (as of just over a year ago) Gregory z55 (http://www.gregorypacks.com/us/?option=com_gregorypacks&act=product&task=overview&cid=26) pack. Its great for 3-4 day trips, but can be streched to 5 or 6 without any real discomfort.

Above all else, get a pair of good boots. I don't have any links. I'm not a huge fan of my current Monotrails. They give me blisters galore. The last thing you want is to stop every 5 miles to patch up new blisters. I also don't recommend hiking in sandals (Teva or Chaco). I hiked 50 miles in a pair of Chacos. My feet have never been more beat up in my life!

[SRock]

I've got a ProLite 4 mat and it's as comfortable as any mat I've used, including a thicker Thermarest. The weight and packed size can't be beat.

I voted for the 3 because it was IMHO the better of the two options, but I have a ProLite 4 and it has never failed me.

[patrisVII]

Can't give much advice on the tents - I car camp with a large family (that said the Eureka Sunrise series is the most weather-proof large tent we have used - better even than the canvas uber-tents).

I will, however, unhesitatingly recommend the Exped (aka Outdoor Reasearch) air mats for sleeping.

Exped mats (http://www.outdoorresearch.com/site/browse/Exped/Mats.html?id=2cEYDDUJ:199.46.200.231)

They are more comfortable, lighter, warmer and much smaller packing (about the size of a coffe can) than Therma-rest types. So warm that I can't use a sleeping bag with them - I just use a sheet on the bottom and a fleece blanket on top (and a wool one too for early spring camping when the nights are in the 40's).

They are not 'self inflating', but the pumping (inflated with a built in foam pump - not by mouth) is not hard to do and I get mine filled in about 2 minutes.

REI has them on sale several times a year for about a third of MSRP.

[Dennis]

I don't get out as much as I used to but when I did, I got out a whole lot. Having kids does that to you... You are going to have a tough time getting comparable advice here because the brands available here in the US are different than what is available to you in the UK.

To give you background, in the warm seasons I am a hammock camper (Hennessy), in the shoulder seasons I use a Big Agnes Seedhouse SL2 tent, and in the winter I use a Black Diamond Megamid pyramid tarp. My regular bag is a Western Mountaineering Highlite down bag (1lb/0.5kg good to freezing) or a Sierra Design Nitro 15F/-9C bag that weighs a little bit more than the WM bag. I use Granite Gear or Gregory backpacks (usually their lightweight to ultralight-ish models), Thermarest pads (old school ultralight) and my total weight with food/water for about a week is usually around 25 lbs/11kgs or maybe a touch heavier. I have been backpacking probably 25 some years now, mostly short trips of 5 days or less with a couple of long trips on distance trails thrown in.

For one, you are probably overestimating on the "expedition" thing as expedition rarely ever equals light and most expedition tents will never see Everest or any conditions they were designed to handle. Most any well-designed three season tent will see you through almost 4 seasons of weather with few issues. Sleeping pads are also something I don't screw around with (same with the bag) which is why I use a hammock - I don't sleep well on the ground unless it is on snow. I don't recommend a hammock, especially if you are going with your fiancee as they are pretty much a solo shelter so you would need 2 of them with all the implications of being in separate shelters. :rolleyes: Also, there are intracies to hammocks that are completely different than ground sleeping. The main idea is about blocking thermal loss even in relatively mild weather so the pad I use is a really wide blue foam pad that I would never use on the ground but excels in a hammock. If you have no experience with them, I would not recommend them for a long trip.

Are you a serious backpacker and know you already like doing it? One of the more common scenarios is people get all into researching the gear but actually have very little outdoor experience, and when they do finally go with all their new equipment they find they don't like it, then all that equipment is for sale later on the boards. If you know you like it, then there are probably better forums for the answers you are looking for. There must be a UK-based LW or UL backpacking forum out there. You can also check reviews on some equipment at backpackgeartest.org. They will likely not have many of the Euro brands you have access to though but you may be surprised. And one last thing to keep in mind that quality gear that is lightweight can be very expensive. It can cost a lot of money to get your packweight down.