Is DE/Straight wetshaving making a comeback.

[moto]

Here in Australia I see no advertising about any of the products we use here, only the Gillette ads with their 5 blades and foam/gel. Why is this? What's it like in America and Europe or the rest of the world for that matter?

I have also asked friends and guys at work and hardly any use DE's and none straights! The all look like they've seen a ghost when I mention DE's and shrink in size and reply to me like I'm offering them a killer virus at the mention of a straight razor!

Most of the guy's used DE's before but say they are too dangerous to use?

Only a very small amount of ads in some mens mags and only if your "looking for it", on the internet.

I suppose time has something to do with it but I think it would be a close call except if you use electric?

I think I have seen more online stores of late but I wonder how many people are converting to wetshaving as we know it?

I think more promotion/advertising needs to be done to let people know how good it is to shave, how relaxing it is, how it's cheaper in the long run and how it's good for your skin. Oh yeah,, and how wonderful it is to mmm,,,,,,faceterbate.

Happy shaving,
moto,:a44:

[Bertilak]

Here in Australia I see no advertising about any of the products we use here, only the Gillette ads with their 5 blades and foam/gel. Why is this? What's it like in America and Europe or the rest of the world for that matter?

I see NO advertisements for DE/SE shaving in the USA. I don't think there any DE/SE razor manufacturers in the USA.

I do think the HOBBY of DE shaving (and perhaps SE as a minor variant) is increasing based on eBay prices going up in just the 3 months I have been paying attention. Can't say if this is because of collectors or actual shavers.

Can any of the people in charge here on B&B tell us if the number of active members is increasing? (e.g. posts per day or some such statistic) I tink I will ask that in a more appropriate forum.

[SavantStrike]

Yeah, I too am in the US and have seen no advertising for DE's whatsoever. I'm more concerned that while the hobby may have grown a bit, the total user base of DE's will shrink.
Gillette is desperately trying to push the cartridge mania in developing countries, and I'm sure the other manufacturers are doing so as well. As countries that are traditionally straight/DE start converting to cartridges, the DE market as a whole will shrink. That is unless the hobby takes off in developed countries and people stop listening to the multiblade madness. I'm also thoroughly convinced that in another 5-15 years Gillette (now P&G) is screwed, this could help.

In the late 90's Gillette introduced the Mach 3 as a massive technical breakthrough due to it's 3 blade design. A few years later Schick introduced the quattro with 4 blades and claimed this was an improvement. After some lawsuits between the two companies over claims of razor superiority it was determined that neither company was allowed to claim their razor was better due to it being impossible to test. A scant 2 years after the quattro's release, Gillette released the fusion with 5 blades, again stating that they had reached a new pinnacle with a 5 blade shave. Now Gillette is in the tweaking phase with the fusion power gamer... :001_rolle

I see two potential outcomes here. One is that the dorco pace 6 somehow ends up on US shores or in a market where it is competing with the fusion. Gillette may feel the need to prove superiority without stating superiority (remember the lawsuit with Schick). To do this Gillette will have to counter with a 7 bladed razor or a majorly redesigned fusion (not sure what they can even change there...).

Another outcome is that in less than a decade the Mach 3 will no longer be under patent and when Gillette is forced to retire the design to keep competitors from making aftermarket blades they will be forced to replace the fusion design. Again since Gillete has hyped more blades as better, they need at least 6 or 7 blades to make a new one sell. That is far too many blades and the razor will be so unwieldy at that point that the only thing Gillette will be able to do is convince people that the more blades hype has all been a lie, and maybe just maybe at that point people will look at shaving differently again.

[mmack66]

DE/SE shaving is dead to any major razor manufacturers in the US. 40 years of cartridge propaganda has almost wiped DE/SE shaving from the collective conscience.

[walds11]

Great write-up!

When exactly will the patent for the Mach3 expire? What about the Mach3 Turbo?


Yeah, I too am in the US and have seen no advertising for DE's whatsoever. I'm more concerned that while the hobby may have grown a bit, the total user base of DE's will shrink.
Gillette is desperately trying to push the cartridge mania in developing countries, and I'm sure the other manufacturers are doing so as well. As countries that are traditionally straight/DE start converting to cartridges, the DE market as a whole will shrink. That is unless the hobby takes off in developed countries and people stop listening to the multiblade madness. I'm also thoroughly convinced that in another 5-15 years Gillette (now P&G) is screwed, this could help.

In the late 90's Gillette introduced the Mach 3 as a massive technical breakthrough due to it's 3 blade design. A few years later Schick introduced the quattro with 4 blades and claimed this was an improvement. After some lawsuits between the two companies over claims of razor superiority it was determined that neither company was allowed to claim their razor was better due to it being impossible to test. A scant 2 years after the quattro's release, Gillette released the fusion with 5 blades, again stating that they had reached a new pinnacle with a 5 blade shave. Now Gillette is in the tweaking phase with the fusion power gamer... :001_rolle

I see two potential outcomes here. One is that the dorco pace 6 somehow ends up on US shores or in a market where it is competing with the fusion. Gillette may feel the need to prove superiority without stating superiority (remember the lawsuit with Schick). To do this Gillette will have to counter with a 7 bladed razor or a majorly redesigned fusion (not sure what they can even change there...).

Another outcome is that in less than a decade the Mach 3 will no longer be under patent and when Gillette is forced to retire the design to keep competitors from making aftermarket blades they will be forced to replace the fusion design. Again since Gillete has hyped more blades as better, they need at least 6 or 7 blades to make a new one sell. That is far too many blades and the razor will be so unwieldy at that point that the only thing Gillette will be able to do is convince people that the more blades hype has all been a lie, and maybe just maybe at that point people will look at shaving differently again.

[rdeakle]

I lived in Germany for nearly 4 years, and never saw a single ad for DE/SE razors or any of the products that go with them (brushes, creams, soaps, &c.), and I lived in a large city to boot (Frankfurt am Main). It wasn't until I moved back to the US about a year and a half ago that I got into wetshaving.

[Spatterdash]

Before this thread gets all doom and gloom, I think it's worth mentioning that we in the US have seen a distinct rise in small boutique shops for shaving, like Art of Shaving and eShave.

There is enough of an interest in it's revival to make a small but distinct mark, and we do seem to be growing at a decent rate.
Though other countries may be buying into the cartridge scene, more and more guys are coming out of the woodwork, looking for a better way, and the more we spend on these products, the more the market sees us.

Person by person, we have to spread the word that shaving is something you will always have to deal with, it can be enjoyable instead of a chore, and there are better options than the McDonalds products of shaving in your local market.

As to original question... is it making a comeback? Yeah, it seems so. Membership here is huge and getting bigger each day, but it's a gradual thing, fueled mostly by the net.

[Luc]

Even when I was in Canada, I do not remember seeing anything like it. However, I was not looking for a new shaving gear so I have a tendency to ignore ads. I currently have no idea of what I can get in a pharmacy/chemist in Canada DE-wise (Brush, blades, DE razor, etc). I think the best way to go is online.

[SepticTank]

Here in Australia I see no advertising about any of the products we use here, only the Gillette ads with their 5 blades and foam/gel. Why is this? What's it like in America and Europe or the rest of the world for that matter?

Exactly the same - but the right way up :lol:


I have also asked friends and guys at work and hardly any use DE's and none straights! The all look like they've seen a ghost when I mention DE's and shrink in size and reply to me like I'm offering them a killer virus at the mention of a straight razor!

They react as if you just said you come from Mars when you mention either here...


Most of the guy's used DE's before but say they are too dangerous to use?

None of them I've talked to remember it - apart from people of my dad's generation (he's in mid-sixties)


Only a very small amount of ads in some mens mags and only if your "looking for it", on the internet.

Never seen an advert for it - end of story.


I suppose time has something to do with it but I think it would be a close call except if you use electric?

The sheeple that shop at the supermarket for everything is probably more like it.... and they stock whatever gives them the highest return (which of course can be manipulated by the Gillettes of the world to suit)


I think more promotion/advertising needs to be done to let people know how good it is to shave, how relaxing it is, how it's cheaper in the long run and how it's good for your skin. Oh yeah,, and how wonderful it is to mmm,,,,,,faceterbate.

But Gillette & Wilkinson Sword won't let it happen - it leeches their market share and they both want to grow that - they already sold razors to women, conned 3 generations of blokes that more blades are better and now that not only do you need a Gillette razor with a Gillette cartridge in it, but you have to use Gillette foam/gel after using a Gillette facewash and after you've finished to use a Gillette balm/AS. Well I had a total Wilkinson Sword shave last evening - UK WS blade in a Schick Krona razor and used a WS soap stick for lather and a WS brush to make it - I could have had the same shave 20 years ago if I'd know about "proper" shaving then instead of wasting the intervening 20 years on goo and cheesegraters :rolleyes:

[SavantStrike]

Great write-up!

When exactly will the patent for the Mach3 expire? What about the Mach3 Turbo?

The M3 came out in 1998, and since they spent 750 million dollars developing it (yeah, I know!) I'm guessing that didn't happen overnight. I'm guessing the patent would be somewhere around 1996-1997, so anywhere between 2016 and 2017 and it's history! If the patent happened in 1995, it could be as early as 2012 as apparently during 1995 and before some patents only lasted 17 years. I know for a fact Gillette has a patent on their blade geometry which is considered desirable, that might expire in the next few years too.

[Luc]

so anywhere between 2016 and 2017 and it's history!

I can't wait for the Gillette Mach6 :lol::lol::lol:

[SavantStrike]

I'm hoping for 7 blades myself. If Gillette makes a razor with 7 blades, I'll consider buying it just to make fun of it, but it would probably cost a kidney.

[Ernie]

Traditional wetshaving (DE and straight) has certainly increased in the past two years. When I joined B&B, there was almost one full page on activity in the B/S/T forum per day. Now, there are easily two pages each day of new/updated threads. Addtionally, the number of vendors for wetshaving prodcuts has increased, as well. Also, there are manufactures like Dovo who make new products.

Still, it appears that this is a specialty market and I doubt that all the traditional wetshaving goods bought make up 5% of the shaving products bought overall in the US. My only real concern is blade production. 'Swedes' are no more and that sucks. And while there are plenty of others like Derbys and Feathers, will they remain once those who were born pre 70s crap out and the 'new kids' know nothing else besides a gigantic amount of blades on one razor?

[mmack66]

I can't wait for the Gillette Mach6 :lol::lol::lol:

Proctor & Gamble is in a tight spot. The Fusion isn't selling as well as they thought it would. Their next razor can't have 6 blades on the front, because that has already been done. And nobody in their right mind will buy a 7 or 8 bladed razor, ridiculousness aside, the cost per cartridge would be in the 6-8 dollar range. I really think they went too far with the Fusion and fewer people are falling for it.

[Ernie]

We should unite the collective genius of B&B and campaign for DE shaving. It's a higher quality shave, way more economical (if you can control yourself), and helps the environment.

[SepticTank]

I really think they went too far with the Fusion and fewer people are falling for it.

Nor can they really row back from 5 blades - they've spent the last 2-3 years telling us how much better 5 is than 3, the previous 15 telling us how 3 is better than 2 and the 20 before that how 2 is better than 1. Even some sheeple remember that...

So expect more power, vibration, lights, music and sandwich making from the next Fusion - the "Fusion Cooker Ultrasonic Laserbeam"

[herbnerd]

And nobody in their right mind will buy a 7 or 8 bladed razor.

And this is when P&G introduce the DE with a twist - 4 blades each side!


Here in NZ, there is nothing in the way of DE being sold except for one specialist shop in Auckland, and a few Indian grocery stores. There is the Goodfella razor but at $120 each, I wonder how many he has sold. The push here as it is elsewhere is for the multibladed systems. I tell friends I get a better, closer shave with an old DE than I ever chould with a multiblade.

The last straw for me was getting some Schick multibladed system - 4 razors for $8 or something, using it and feeling like I hadn't shaved - either with, across or against the grain. I found a cheap DE in an indian store for $5, blades for $2.50 and been more than happy with the results and been telling people. I guess when one can get good shave creams more easily then interest will follow.

[SavantStrike]

Nor can they really row back from 5 blades - they've spent the last 2-3 years telling us how much better 5 is than 3, the previous 15 telling us how 3 is better than 2 and the 20 before that how 2 is better than 1. Even some sheeple remember that...

So expect more power, vibration, lights, music and sandwich making from the next Fusion - the "Fusion Cooker Ultrasonic Laserbeam"

Yeah but the Gillette business model is to make money off of the cartridges not the razor itself. Once that patent for the M3 cartridges ends, P&G will either have to accept third party blade/cartridge sales (which would kill the Fusion overnight) or ditch the M3 and sell nothing but the Fusion.
How they will sell nothing but the Fusion is also up for debate as then they won't have the lucrative 2 tier pricing they have now (expensive and firstborn child). I suppose they could ditch the M3, replace it with the fusion, and then make a new Fusion with a different head design to buy another 20 years, but how are they going to sell that one with two 5 blade razors at once?

[DunEdinRanger]

I think they just forgot what the business model should be like, possibly as an over reaction to almost getting knocked out of business by Wilkinson Sword in the 1960's.

The lesson that should have been learned then is quality first, but instead it was to spend money designing a system that could be patented and no one else could make blades for.

Just to recover the development costs represents a staggering sum of cartridges that have to be sold. You really have to wonder how that was sold at corporate HQ with regard to rate of return on the investment.

[walds11]

Why would Gillette (P&G) ditch the M3 after the patent expires? They could keep selling it. They would obviously lose some market share when the third parties start selling it. Can you tell that I love the M3? M3 Turbo that is :)


Yeah but the Gillette business model is to make money off of the cartridges not the razor itself. Once that patent for the M3 cartridges ends, P&G will either have to accept third party blade/cartridge sales (which would kill the Fusion overnight) or ditch the M3 and sell nothing but the Fusion.
How they will sell nothing but the Fusion is also up for debate as then they won't have the lucrative 2 tier pricing they have now (expensive and firstborn child). I suppose they could ditch the M3, replace it with the fusion, and then make a new Fusion with a different head design to buy another 20 years, but how are they going to sell that one with two 5 blade razors at once?

[DunEdinRanger]

Why would Gillette (P&G) ditch the M3 after the patent expires? They could keep selling it. They would obviously lose some market share when the third parties start selling it. Can you tell that I love the M3? M3 Turbo that is :)

Because their profit margin would drop to the point they couldn't compete, since third parties do not pay for the massive advertising they do, or have the overhead costs they do.

[richmondesi]

I don't think that they would drop the Mach 3 just because the patent runs out. They would loose market share, but there is a sizable percentage of sheeple who will continue to buy the P&G cartridge just because they perceive it to be a superior brand.

[Pugflop]

Even when I was in Canada, I do not remember seeing anything like it. However, I was not looking for a new shaving gear so I have a tendency to ignore ads. I currently have no idea of what I can get in a pharmacy/chemist in Canada DE-wise (Brush, blades, DE razor, etc). I think the best way to go is online.

I live in Canada. You can't find anything really. You can find overpriced red packaged Gillette blades at Wal-Mart ($10 for 10!), some Williams and Wilkonson Sword shave soap at Superstore and some crappy synthetic brushes. At London Drugs you can find VDH soap and Kiss my Face creams (tube variety). At Shoppers Drug Mart you can find Proraso preshave and cream (green tube). That's it.

[Chacki]

Ive sat and wondered about this myself a few times just recently..
Just where the hell can Gillette go now?

They have done the whole 'shaving system' wash , gel , balm..
Any more than 6 blades is a step to far , and there's no going back in blade number after the hype...

A built in trimmers been done by Shick / Wilkinson.
Shave gel in the handles been done by another company we found (on a 6 blade no less)

They already vibrate , have an additional styling blade.

Apart from adding more aloe strips , i think they have hit a solid wall - hence in my opinion the current crop of Fusion re-textures - fusion / stealth / phenom.

Going to be interesting to see what revolution they come up with.
Either way its going to have to be something pretty out of the box..

As for Traditional wetshaving , yea its making a comeback - but as has been said earlier , its small. We are reliant on word of mouth pretty much.
But then , an exponential curve always starts slowly...
If the current financial situation carries on a few more years , Gillette / shick get stuck in a rut and continue on the high price blade model .. It may gather speed faster than expected.

I know for certain that when i started Wet shaving last year my friends all thought i was utterly mental. Lets say they are far less skeptical now.

[moto]

This has been a great read and many interesting view points raised.

Now that these economic times have hit us all i have noticed some gillette ads on tv stating you can shave with the fusion for $1 a week. But there is an * and some terms that i never seem to catch becuase it's over too quick.
Seems to me like their fusion isn't selling so well and now they have to try and convince people it's a cheap way to shave? When i look at the total price of the gillette/schick shave my jaw drops and i say wtf. And most of the products on the chemist/supermarket shelf smell like crap or like it's made for a hospital!:tongue_sm

Something that i have noticed also around work and hanging around friends is their faces don't seem to look so good. Unles they are the type for facials and stuff/makeup etc they look dry,blotchy and uneven colour. My skin has greatly improved and have been told so by many. This is only using proraso soap and pre/post. I'm telling these guys it can be had for cheap compared to what your paying and using and it's much more fun/relaxing. They still don't believe me. The mention of DE brings a look of pain to their faces. 1 or 2are starting to ask questions and seem interested because of the results i am getting but the majority, hmm,,,i don't know?

One thing i know about men, especially manly men like myself of course,kkkkk,
is that we don't really want to ask or say to another man, "wow your skin looks good, what are you using"? Women on the other hand will talk forever about products. But like i said before people have noticed my better looking skin and are starting to ask questions. So maybe more will start asking questions?

Word of mouth is the BEST advertising, slower but in the long run more effective. Gillette/shick and all the rest of the big companies watch out. You can fool the people sometimes but not all the time! This could be the time, considering the economic times ahead to be in the wetshaving business as people look for a cheaper and better way???

Also i think fathers will start telling their children that wetshaving is a better way so this fusion,multiblade cartridge thing might be just a fad?

There IS a better way and it's called DE/Straight wetshaving!

6 and 7 blades lmfao.:lol:

[Stubblefield]

Here in Australia I see no advertising about any of the products we use here, only the Gillette ads with their 5 blades and foam/gel. Why is this? What's it like in America and Europe or the rest of the world for that matter?
ZERO advertising in the US, tho you do see articles in the men's magazines. I'm of the opinion that the resurgence of wet/DE/Straight shaving is an Internet phenomenon (a good thing), and that it will continue to grow, as more and more people step outside the traditional news/advertising channels to get their information.

Besides, word of mouth is a far more effective means of advertising a product. :thumbup1: People don't trust advertisers anymore, but they will tend to trust the opinion of someone they read on a message board.

[Sam Harmon]

Interestingly I amortized out the cost of DE wetshaving over two years vs. Fusion shaving over the same period. The cost is about the same (dependent upon several usage assumptions), but oh the difference in quality

Wetshaving:
New Merkur 23C--$35
Pure Badger Brush--$35
2 Tubs of TOBS SC--$30
2 Bottles of Thayer's Witch Hazel--$20
3 Bottles of SCS Aftershave splash or balm--$30
200 Red Pack Personnas delivered--$23

Total Cost: $173 or $1.66/week. Subbing some cheaper soap, Dickinson's WH, Aqua Velva and a Boar Brush would certainly bring it even lower, but I wanted to use a certain level of luxury products for comparison.

Fusion Shaving
Razor--$10
Cartridges (assuming stretching use to 1/month in this economy)--$84
Barbasol/Gillette Foamy (assuming 1 can/month: I've been using cream for 3+ years now, so I've forgotten how long a can lasted me)--$60
No Aftershave

Total Cost: $154 or $1.60/week

A bare bones, and towards the end of those cartridges probably ragged, shave costs about the same as a DE shave using one of the 3T creams and high quality aftershave products and switching blades out every 3-4 days.

Dropping the Fusion cartridge use down to 1 per week raises the per week of Fusion shaving to $4.67--still with no aftershave product. For 77 cents LESS per week, the wetshaver could substitute an excellent condition Fatboy bought on BST, a T&H Silvertip brush and Penhaligon's SS (1 in wooden bowl; 1 refill) and Penhaligon's ASB!

[Ernie]

Sam, when you say 1/month, do you mean to say that one could use only one cartridge for an entire month? Or one pack a month? I know that in my case, I could not use one cartridge longer than one week.

Your cost for DE shaving is also raised through the use of witch hazel and asb, whereas you don't include those for the fusion cost.

Overall, I do think that DE shaving is cheaper in the long run, even if you spend $100+ on the intial equipment (razor + brush + bowl).

[Sam Harmon]

Sam, when you say 1/month, do you mean to say that one could use only one cartridge for an entire month? Or one pack a month? I know that in my case, I could not use one cartridge longer than one week.

Your cost for DE shaving is also raised through the use of witch hazel and asb, whereas you don't include those for the fusion cost.

Overall, I do think that DE shaving is cheaper in the long run, even if you spend $100+ on the intial equipment (razor + brush + bowl).

I am basing the assumption on 1 cartridge per month, which is a massive stretch I know. I used to get about 3 weeks per cartridge (probably shaved 5 times per week) with no more irritation than with a new cartridge.

I deliberately left the AS out of the Fusion example to show that for the same amount of $$/week, one could get a total shave experience with a certain degree of luxury (badger brush, TOBS cream, ASB) that one could get with the most frugal, stripped down Fusion experience.

[Ernie]

I see. That makes sense.

[mparker762]

I hate to be all doom and gloom here, but I think that DE wetshaving is dying out in the US. Yes there are more enthusiasts here on this forum every year, but we're still a very small group - we are concentrated in a few forums which makes it seem like there are more of us than there really are. Meanwhile the guys that learned with the DE and Injector and never switched to the cartridges are dying off from old age. They just used their old trusty fatboy and US Personnas or Gillettes and Williams soap and a beat-up old badger brush, and didn't blather on about it on the internet, but they bought blades and soap and the late lamented Palmolive shaving cream.

[xeemz]

Interestingly I amortized out the cost of DE wetshaving over two years vs. Fusion shaving over the same period. The cost is about the same (dependent upon several usage assumptions), but oh the difference in quality

Wetshaving:
New Merkur 23C--$35
Pure Badger Brush--$35
2 Tubs of TOBS SC--$30
2 Bottles of Thayer's Witch Hazel--$20
3 Bottles of SCS Aftershave splash or balm--$30
200 Red Pack Personnas delivered--$23

Total Cost: $173 or $1.66/week. Subbing some cheaper soap, Dickinson's WH, Aqua Velva and a Boar Brush would certainly bring it even lower, but I wanted to use a certain level of luxury products for comparison.

Fusion Shaving
Razor--$10
Cartridges (assuming stretching use to 1/month in this economy)--$84
Barbasol/Gillette Foamy (assuming 1 can/month: I've been using cream for 3+ years now, so I've forgotten how long a can lasted me)--$60
No Aftershave

Total Cost: $154 or $1.60/week

A bare bones, and towards the end of those cartridges probably ragged, shave costs about the same as a DE shave using one of the 3T creams and high quality aftershave products and switching blades out every 3-4 days.

Dropping the Fusion cartridge use down to 1 per week raises the per week of Fusion shaving to $4.67--still with no aftershave product. For 77 cents LESS per week, the wetshaver could substitute an excellent condition Fatboy bought on BST, a T&H Silvertip brush and Penhaligon's SS (1 in wooden bowl; 1 refill) and Penhaligon's ASB!

You forgot to compare the cost for year 2. This is where you don't have to reinvest in a new razor/brush/bowl. And you still have the blades that will last a few years. Unless you switch blades everyday, 200 blades will last a while. However, you'd still be buying fusion cartridges in year 2.

[Lcdeddo]

Its funny, I mean I know the effort has always been on getting you to Buy their particular brand of Blade. but I think Gillette is really missing an opportunity to build or re-manufacture their vintage razors. They could easily sell a HIGH Quality razor today for $80-$120 USD. along with all the possible accessories brushes, soaps, creams etc.

I remember when they came out with the double edge design- I bought into it. when they went for 3 blades I got real suspicious. at four I was laughing, 5 and six blades seems to be ridiculous to me. Its all marketing. and belies common sense. I have since gone back to DE shaving and have been amazed at the quality of the shaves after so many years with just putting up with mediocrity and poor quality overall in the "Drug store" quality available to most of us. As for the HI-Tech, I have kidded to my wife that I am holding out for the 8 Blade version, hopefully with an LCD readout, and It should be able to sync with my computer. Preferable compatible with Mac OS X.
So many of todays products are vastly inferior to older products. They need you to keep buying into the marketing, filling the land-fills with their plastic-fantastic ergonomic CRAP.
Also the modern companies that make DE products I never see advertising for them. Not sure why. If the market is small it is only because MOST people don't even consider it- they are not aware. Maybe we will see more advertising of this in the future. I hope so.

[SavantStrike]

If you see that advertising, you'll see it when the M3 is no longer under patent. I know some people here think Gillette will keep making the M3 after the patent expires, but I guarantee they will drop it the first time a competitor introduces a third party cartridge into the market.

[Sam Harmon]

Its funny, I mean I know the effort has always been on getting you to Buy their particular brand of Blade. but I think Gillette is really missing an opportunity to build or re-manufacture their vintage razors. They could easily sell a HIGH Quality razor today for $80-$120 USD. along with all the possible accessories brushes, soaps, creams etc.


The problem is that the P&G mentality would never allow them to do it in the right way. Oh sure, they'd love to get your $100 for Fatboy 2.0. There's just no way that they would produce them to anywhere near the same standards. They'd still engineer it in the cheapest (i.e. most profitale) way possible and then farm it out to some Chinese factory which would inevitably cut every off the books corner they could to make a little additional money.

That and doing so in the first place--even with a primarily nostalgia based ad campaign--would call into question the entire cartridge Potemkin Village.

I see the current Gillette Fusion marketing to be rather schizophrenic and scared. On one hand, they're begging you to switch to the Fusion with the ridiculous $1/week claims while at the same time have a parallel campaign urging you to discard your blades quicker to get a better shave.

[Sam Harmon]

Back to the original topic, I don't see a huge upsurge in DE popularity. My friends--even the guys who have impeccable taste in watches, cars, clothing and furniture--look at me like I'm insane when I talk about DE shaving, and don't even think about getting them to show any interest in straights.

Then again, most of these guys don't understand my collecting vintage 58-64 (dawn of the 707 era) airline travel posters.

If there is any "gateway" to making it happen, I would suggest it's selling them on the notion of high quality brush/cream usage. Then, perhaps, they would inevitably find their way to dumping the cartridge. It's the path that I went down.

[Didero]

I don't see a sudden rise in DE interest, but I do think DE/straight shavers are finally banding together in places like this. I do hear a lot of grumbling about the Fusion.

[techdog]

The only advertisement I have see for DE or straight shaving was an online commercial by classicshaving.com. I heard someone say they saw it on the ESPN channel but never saw it myself. You can see it at the link below.

http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=76237&highlight=commercial

[Sam Harmon]

I don't see a sudden rise in DE interest, but I do think DE/straight shavers are finally banding together in places like this. I do hear a lot of grumbling about the Fusion.

Definitely agree with the grumbling--if not outright rejection--towards the Fusion. Unfortunately, electrics seem to be the route most guys are taking. Anyone have any data on electric razor sales growth or declines since the introduction of the Fusion?

[grouse79]

Back to the original topic, I don't see a huge upsurge in DE popularity. My friends--even the guys who have impeccable taste in watches, cars, clothing and furniture--look at me like I'm insane when I talk about DE shaving, and don't even think about getting them to show any interest in straights.


I'd say most people under the age of, say, 50? probably don't really know what a double edged razor is. For sure for me, this time last year, aged 28, it was a revelation. I genuinely thought that the cartridge razor was like the original safety razor, except with more plastic.

Question is, if DE is dying out, how do Merkur, et al and the other multitude of blade manufacturers make their money? They must have twigged there was still a market for them somewhere.

[moto]

i was wondering if anyone knows a shop owner/vendor or online retailer and how their business has been going lately and also how they see the future of wetshaving?

i've sent an e-mail to an online retailer here in australia called mensbiz for his opinions. they are a member here and offer members a discount on purchases.
it would be interesting to see his and other retailers opinions?

[Mr. Gillette]

Here in Australia I see no advertising about any of the products we use here, only the Gillette ads with their 5 blades and foam/gel. Why is this? Happy shaving,
moto,:a44:

Simple...Austrailia was founded over 200 years ago as a Penal colony...obviously it still is, Mate!:lol::lol::lol:

[mmack66]

Because their profit margin would drop to the point they couldn't compete, since third parties do not pay for the massive advertising they do, or have the overhead costs they do.

They still sell Sensors and cartridges for all the other razors. They will still sell it. Some folks will buy it just because it says Gillette on it.

[mmack66]

I hate to be all doom and gloom here, but I think that DE wetshaving is dying out in the US. Yes there are more enthusiasts here on this forum every year, but we're still a very small group - we are concentrated in a few forums which makes it seem like there are more of us than there really are. Meanwhile the guys that learned with the DE and Injector and never switched to the cartridges are dying off from old age. They just used their old trusty fatboy and US Personnas or Gillettes and Williams soap and a beat-up old badger brush, and didn't blather on about it on the internet, but they bought blades and soap and the late lamented Palmolive shaving cream.

DE/SE wetshaving died in the US about 30 years ago when Gillette stopped making DE razors. But, there is definitely a resurgence in DE/SE wetshaving today.

[DirtyDave]

I hope I am wrong, but while wet shaving does grow, it is still a niche, boutique item. I would prefer to think it is trend that is about to explode, but I don't that is correct.

I think there is somewhere out there a natural limit to who is really interested in wet shaving as we are. I say this because we enjoy shaving. We took a daily task that most guys consider a pain and made it a pleasure. We like soaps and scents. We make shaving fun, an adventure and a social affair. That is why this and a couple of other shaving sites thrive.

We are all about mass customization, as marketing experts Pepper and Rodgers call it and the internet made is all possible. For the majority of the market it is and will always be a mass market. Truth be told most guys get a tolerable shave from the stuff from the supermarket or the electric razor from Walmart. For them shaving is always going to a daily drudgery and products we dismiss will stay popular. For them, the Gillette shaving system works. On to the rest of the day.

What we consider more traditional and more preferable ways of shaving is most popular in less wealthy countries. Assuming these countries become more wealthy my guess is that a healthy percentage of will switch to cartridges, cans of goo and electrics. My guess those guys will see shaving a daily drudgery as well. Gillette sees rising world wide prosperity as new markets emerging, and they are probably right.

It's nice to know that I can afford to go that route if I want to. It's nice to know I don't have to go that route if I don't want to. I have chosen not to go that route.

I am not worried the future of wet shaving. I think we are going to be fine. My guess is a sufficient number will stay with or rediscover wet shaving despite their more fortunate economic well being. They too will enjoy shaving for the masculine pleasure that it is. Their main source too will be the internet. So for the online vendors, mom and pop start ups and online shaving sites, business will continue to grow. We are a thriving niche. I just hope the keep making Derby blades in Turkey, Merkur razors in Germany, SCS soaps in Missouri and J M Fraser's in Canada. Life will continue to be good.

[mparker762]

DE/SE wetshaving died in the US about 30 years ago when Gillette stopped making DE razors. But, there is definitely a resurgence in DE/SE wetshaving today.

There were a bunch of guys that never switched, so DE wetshaving was only "sort of" dead. If even 1% of the old guys refused to switch then we're talking a million or so just in the US.

If the membership of this forum is any indication, there aren't nearly enough coming back to it to make up for the larger numbers that are dying off of old age, we're just slowing down the rate of decline a very little bit. It only seems like there's a real DE resurgence because all of us are clumped together in one or two places. And I'm sure that the DE manufacturers are happy because those old guys probably weren't buying a lot of new razors while we are. But I suspect that there would need to be about 100K new DE users a year just to match the attrition losses at the elder end.

Now I'll agree with you though that there appears to be a real resurgence in straight razor shaving, but this is mostly because all the old generation of straight razor shavers mostly died out long ago, so pretty much all new SR users are a net increase in the SR-shaving population. The last old SR shaver in my family died about five years ago (though I didn't realize he used a SR until after his death), and most of his SR-using brothers and cousins had died several decades ago.

[rav]

Most everyone I know is a wetshaver. It's mainly a Mach3 or some other cartridge razor. Everyone is stretching out the cartridge use for at least a month and nearly everyone complains about the cost and razor burn.

When I tell people that I'm trying to switch over to DE shaving, I'm generally asked isn't that dangerous and secondly that if it takes any more than five minutes a shave then they're not interested. I know the common consensus is that once you get into DE shaving it's an enjoyable experience, but for some like me, it's not. It's still shaving and though not painful now, it's not exactly something I enjoy. I would rather have the extra 15 minutes in bed in the morning than spend it on shaving. Though the cost savings (at the moment I have fought off all ADs, I think my motivation to get a slant or a progress is gone), are really good and the lack of razor burn amazing.

I don't think that there is a resuragance in DE/Straight shaving, but I will say that once I settle on a blade, I'll stockpile and then keep an eye on the market to make sure that the blades I like don't disappear.

[mmack66]

There were a bunch of guys that never switched, so DE wetshaving was only "sort of" dead. If even 1% of the old guys refused to switch then we're talking a million or so just in the US.

If the membership of this forum is any indication, there aren't nearly enough coming back to it to make up for the larger numbers that are dying off of old age, we're just slowing down the rate of decline a very little bit. It only seems like there's a real DE resurgence because all of us are clumped together in one or two places. And I'm sure that the DE manufacturers are happy because those old guys probably weren't buying a lot of new razors while we are. But I suspect that there would need to be about 100K new DE users a year just to match the attrition losses at the elder end.

Now I'll agree with you though that there appears to be a real resurgence in straight razor shaving, but this is mostly because all the old generation of straight razor shavers mostly died out long ago, so pretty much all new SR users are a net increase in the SR-shaving population. The last old SR shaver in my family died about five years ago (though I didn't realize he used a SR until after his death), and most of his SR-using brothers and cousins had died several decades ago.

Nobody is saying that DE wetshaving is going to supplant cartridge razor shaving. There are simply too many people that don't care enough about shaving to bother with trying to improve their shave. It is impossible to know how many DE shavers are dying versus how many are taking it up anew so those types of musings are useless. I just hope they don't stop making blades, cause that would cause everything to crash.

[mparker762]

I'm just speculating about the relative rates of decline among the older DE shavers and growth among us younger guys, and trying to avoid the rose-colored glasses effect of hanging around with a bunch of like-minded conspirators.

OTOH Palmolive got out of the shave lather business several years ago, presumably not because business was so brisk they couldn't keep up. Soaps and creams that have been unchanged for decades or even centuries have been suffering the indignity of reformulation for years now, seemingly victims of a costcutting move that is both surprisingly widespread and also seems at odds with the theory of a growing wetshaving movement. DE, GEM, and Injector blades are getting harder and harder to source locally, though possibly this is due to pressure from Gillette trying to move Fusion products. Meanwhile has anybody definitively figured out what happened to the supply of the "Swedish Personnas"?

[SavantStrike]

Definitely agree with the grumbling--if not outright rejection--towards the Fusion. Unfortunately, electrics seem to be the route most guys are taking. Anyone have any data on electric razor sales growth or declines since the introduction of the Fusion?

Actually a quick glance through a few web searches shows that (according to some) razor sales are declining because men have decided to grow facial hair since it's cheaper and also fashionable (that stubble look)...

[Sweeney Todd]

I'm a frequent poster on a general Irish message board where at any time
there are about one to two thousand members online at any time and double
that number of guests. Since early this year there's a thread active with 10-20
new DE users who have migrated from carts. I only started shaving with
a safety razor after twenty years of cartridge systems and have not looked
back. Three of my friends have also moved to safety razors since and I've another
three or four seriously looking at it - they've asked me to send them links
and let them know if I see some nice vintage Gillettes.

[mmack66]

I'm just speculating about the relative rates of decline among the older DE shavers and growth among us younger guys, and trying to avoid the rose-colored glasses effect of hanging around with a bunch of like-minded conspirators.

OTOH Palmolive got out of the shave lather business several years ago, presumably not because business was so brisk they couldn't keep up. Soaps and creams that have been unchanged for decades or even centuries have been suffering the indignity of reformulation for years now, seemingly victims of a costcutting move that is both surprisingly widespread and also seems at odds with the theory of a growing wetshaving movement. DE, GEM, and Injector blades are getting harder and harder to source locally, though possibly this is due to pressure from Gillette trying to move Fusion products. Meanwhile has anybody definitively figured out what happened to the supply of the "Swedish Personnas"?

I don't understand your conclusions but whatever. I enjoy using vintage DE and SE razors and that is all that really matters to me. I have razors that will outlast me and I only hope that I will be able to continue to buy blades in the future.

I doubt that Proctor & Gamble has any influence on Personna or Shick as far as blade sales. Blades have been hard to come by locally for years.

I assume you mean Swedish Gillette blades. There is a big thread about them on B&B.

[hold123]

Hi Moto.

This is an interesting thread. Thanks for inviting me to give my two cents.

I'd have to agree that wet shaving remains a small, niche market. Don't expect to see any mainstream advertising - it's far too expensive to try and convince the average guy that the cartridge razor he's been using for the past 10 years is flawed and that a DE or straight razor is the answer to all his problems. It's a revolution that's going to have to come from us, as passionate believers, preaching the advantages of DE shaving to the unconverted.

That said, a number of the big manufacturers in this sector are expanding their offerings, and sales of straight razors are booming (Dovo has an extraordinary nine month waiting list for some of their products) - so I think the market is showing healthy signs and is nowhere near saturation point.

I'd like to think that one day every guy will at least have a shaving brush and a quality shave cream or soap in their bathroom ... but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Cheers,
Nathan.

[mretzloff]

Because their profit margin would drop to the point they couldn't compete, since third parties do not pay for the massive advertising they do, or have the overhead costs they do.

It doesn't matter. As long as they are breaking even at least, they should still keep making M3. This is a basic concept of economics.

Plus, realistically, if they stopped making M3s, they risk alienating customers.

[mmack66]

It doesn't matter. As long as they are breaking even at least, they should still keep making M3. This is a basic concept of economics.

Plus, realistically, if they stopped making M3s, they risk alienating customers.

Eventually, like the Trac II, Atra, and possibly soon the Sensor, they will stop selling the handle but still sell the blades. Judging by the advertising they are doing to try to get Mach3 users to switch to the Fusion, Gillette/P&G will have to keep selling it or they will really be in a pickle. I don't know this for a fact, but the Mach3 probably sells better than the Fusion.

[BobK1]

There are a few factors at work here. One is perception. One is percentage. One is greed.

Perception: Working as I do for a major pharmacy chain, I see a lot of customers and one day while stocking the shaving section I was talking to a customer that I knew for quite some time and even from a previous job. He was looking at some canned goo and I joked that there are so many to choose from, he replied that he agreed with me. I then commented that I was just sorry that with so much canned goo to choose from, that we only carry one actual shave soap, Williams. His reply was "you don't actually still use soap with a brush, do you?" I said "Yes, and as a matter of fact, I use a DE razor." He commented about how he still had a Gillette adjustable at home but does not use it. I remarked about how he could get a much closer shave with it than the cartridges that he also had in his hand, and his reply was "Oh, I know, but who has the time?"

I, for one, MAKE the time. I have discovered that there is something "right" about taking a few minutes and devoting them to myself. Sure I indulge in "distractions" to forget about the world at times, who doesn't? But I also take a few minutes in the morning to relax and spend some quality time on myself, and you know what? I face the day with a better attitude for it. Yes, it does take some time, but really, it does not take all that much more than I would have to use some canned goo and a cartridge.

Percentage: There are really two aspects to this. One, proper wetshaving did definitely hit a low point a little while ago, and is on it's way back. But, as a percentage it will more than likely continue to decrease. The population is growing at a faster pace than proper wetshaving is. So as a percentage, the number of proper wetshavers is decreasing even while the actual number is growing. Second, as the percentage drops, so do the returns, and manufacturing and advertising costs continue to rise. As an example, a few years ago I was working for an electronics retailer, and would constantly endure older folks walking in with a radio, tape recorder, whatever. that they wanted to repair. I would reply that the item was not built to be serviceable and even if it could be repaired, the cost of doing so would far exceed the replacement cost of the unit. Their remark would usually be "I remember when things were made well, and COULD be repaired." Well, they were right, but they were wrong too. There was a time when a simple radio would have cost around $200, but at that time a new car was only around $600. AND the radio HAD to be serviced, and serviced regularly. I for one am glad that radios don't cost a third as much as a new car, and will gladly toss one in the garbage and replace it for $20 while a basic new car is around $20,000. You'll also notice that those same $20 radios don't get much advertising either. How are you going to bury the cost of advertising into a 15 to 25 cent blade? but you can bury that advertising cost into a several dollar cartridge. You can bury the cost of new more efficient manufacturing machinery in that same several dollar cartridge.

Greed: Even with the rising number of wetshavers there is a larger and faster growing number of cartridge users out there as well, and any company CEO that is worth his weight in salt will try to capture that cartridge market. If any of you have seen the movie "The Hustler" with Paul Newman, you may remember when he returns to the George C. Scott character with his decision that he figured that he would rather have 20 percent of something big, than 100 percent of nothing. Well, that same logic applies to the whole cartridge vs single blade thing. The returns on simple single blades amount to just about nothing, even though as a percentage the manufacturing costs are also just about nothing and in the end, the total markup may be a higher percentage than the cartridge will realize, the dollar amount of profit will not permit advertising and the other costs of maintaining growth in the business world. The dollar return is made even more when you factor in the larger number of actual cartridge users into the mix.

Gillette hit the nail on the head with his business model and the understanding that the real money was in making and selling the blades and not the razor. When he started to get some competition, he made subtle changes to maintain non-compatibility with the other offerings, or simply bought them out. He (or rather the company) also took advantage of the public's perception that time was important, and offered the superspeed razor. Sure it made changing the blades a little bit more safe, but the real catcher was with the notched bar making it a snap. It does not take all that much time to change a blade, but now there was an induced perception that before it did, and now it does not. The same with the canned goo. The writing was on the wall. My father had told me that many years ago, canned salmon was white in color, and that the pink salmon was uncommon, but then the pink salmon became popular, and one of the remaining companies that still offered the white salmon advertised "Our Salmon Guaranteed Not To Turn Pink" The sales of pink salmon almost came to a complete halt and it took some doing for the pink salmon sales to make a comeback. Now that is the only kind (pink) that I have ever seen. Folks perceive that proper wetshaving takes too much time, it really does not. And it gives one some peaceful time simply for oneself.

Will wetshaving survive? I think so. There is still money to be made, and most of the manufacturers are not in competition with the major players and as long as the population continues to rise, the number of quality product users can continue to rise along with it and still not threaten the "status quo" Just accept that some of your favorite items will go extinct (fine Gillette razors, Sweeds, etc.) but that there will always be something to replace them, some better, some not. And as much as individual variances influence the milage gained by those products new and old, some will not miss the loss of the "Sweeds" and other will fall in love with the new dorco blades.

As always, YMMV

Bob

[HoosierHacker]

I have one other friend that is into DE shaving. My roommate from college. Everyone else looks at me like I'm crazy. I'd like to say it is the shaving fascination, but I'm not so sure.

[moto]

Hi Moto.

This is an interesting thread. Thanks for inviting me to give my two cents.

I'd have to agree that wet shaving remains a small, niche market. Don't expect to see any mainstream advertising - it's far too expensive to try and convince the average guy that the cartridge razor he's been using for the past 10 years is flawed and that a DE or straight razor is the answer to all his problems. It's a revolution that's going to have to come from us, as passionate believers, preaching the advantages of DE shaving to the unconverted.

That said, a number of the big manufacturers in this sector are expanding their offerings, and sales of straight razors are booming (Dovo has an extraordinary nine month waiting list for some of their products) - so I think the market is showing healthy signs and is nowhere near saturation point.

I'd like to think that one day every guy will at least have a shaving brush and a quality shave cream or soap in their bathroom ... but I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Cheers,
Nathan.


Hi Nathan,

Thanks for coming and giving a retailers view on the trend of wetshaving.

9 month waiting on the Dovo's, wow.

I think if there were some more ads in mags, newspapers and online about the benifits of wetshaving it would grow. Word of mouth takes time.

When i see some pictures of guys wetshaving gear/lather posted on this site it looks quite nice and relaxing. if this was shown to more people i think they would also be impressed. picture it, a nice razor with soap/cream, a badger brush and aftershave next to the gillette fusion range, which looks more impressive? also the scent of some products and how that feels on and after the shave would also make them interested. the notion and picture that this is "luxury" but is cheaper and better could help. an example is we all like to look at luxury items be they clothes, cars, eg ferrari's mercs and bmw's, scents and perfumes but the price can be something else. however shaving, if we go by price and dollars the average joe will think gillettes fusion and 5 blade cartriges and goo is "luxury" but nothing could be further from the truth. it's like gillette is the car maker kia and tobs/adp/t&h are bmw but kia is considered the luxury/expensive and better car than bmw? wetshaving even at it's cheaper end is much more of a luxury. man, even tiger woods, roger federer and thiery henry couldn't make gillettes ads look and feel like luxury. so if one could market wetshaving as a luxury and compare the price/benifits to the public then gillette would tremble in it's boots. someone just has to put this up against that and let them decide. but no one is putting up this, only that. another market is the environment.

something that might be out there but shaving classes for the public. we have cooking classes so shaving classes might be a way to advertise and show guys how to lather, shave, groom and maybe even try products?

i also think that the internet will grow bigtime and when china and india grow and more people get the internet then there's more of a chance to find wetshaving. it's how i found this site when i wanted a better way, google it.
most of the people on this site never grew up with the internet so our generations never "lived" with computers and many older people still don't use them. the future generations will all have computers so the exposure will be much greater.

seinfeld said it best, we as humans are picking up dog crap so if the aliens finally come and invade our planet and say,"take me to your leader", who do you think they're gonna think is the leader?
people have been picking up gillettes crap for too long.:9898:

happy "luxury" shaving and enjoy,
moto

[Bertilak]

Dovo has an extraordinary nine month waiting list for some of their products


Might that be explained by any decrease in Dovo's skilled staffing?

[mparker762]

Somewhat. I generally hear the "9-month backorder" in relation to their straight razors, and they've got a problem with their trained grinders retiring and none of the younger guys are interested in the 5-year apprenticeship to specialize in something that may just be a passing fad. OTOH I've also heard that their production numbers are actually up. There aren't many old straight razor users left to die off, so I suspect the number of straight razor users is really on the increase in absolute numbers though probably not as a percentage of the population. And apparently Dovo has approached some SRP members in Germany about apprenticing with them (though AFAIK without success), so who knows...

[Mikus11]

Part of the problem with straights is they are just too good. How many here are shaving with 50-100 year-old plus straight razors?

Its just like my other hobby photography. The old German camera makers like Rollei and Leica made (make) such a good product, they just never die! Like wet shaving, they are against a huge tide (digital photography) but fulfill a niche market for people like me that see them (and film) as a superior product.

[masonjarjar]

I've used an Atra since I was about 20.. and here I thought I was using an "old fashioned" razor. It never even occurred to me to try a DE in all those years..

[Spatterdash]

Funny...

If the makers of razors and blades begin to fold as Gillette increases it's market abroad, and if we finally see the day that no decent double-edge or single-edge blade is available to the consumer, the straight razor gang will have a real advantage.

To illustrate, the very real possibility of "no animal products" becoming standard is one reason that I don't get too hung up on tallow soaps. I like quality soaps, not soaps that happen to have a particular ingredient, and though I love a few of the tallows, I love a lot of the vegetable-based, too.
By the same token, this chance of quality blades fading from the market may be the single most convincing arguement I've heard for learning how to strop and use a straight.

Honestly, I don't see it happening in our lifetime. I think we will always have a few makers of blades out there, for the same reason you can still purchase new shaving brushes and new DE and straight razors today, a small but consistant demand.
But, should the world really grind to a halt, causing the collapse of numerous smaller companies that can't recover, or if Gillette is so successful they redefine shaving in every market worldwide, those with a dependable straight will still have a quality shaving implement.
I don't underestimate Gillette, either. No matter what paradox they may face over the Fusion and future designs, it's common knowledge among certain military folk that in parts of the Middle East and Eastern Europe, a Gillette Mach3 or Fusion is looked on with the same reverence we might have for a bottle of Napoleanic Brandy. They want cartridges to the point of supporting black market supplies and curse their time-wasting double-edges. DE is seen as inferior to multi-blade, just like it is here.

I love DE shaving, but I almost feel obligated to learn the straight, or at least have a straight and a good strop around should that long winter arrive...

Or maybe I'm justifying. I don't know.

[moto]

i also think there are a lot of people out there wetshaving who don't really get on the web.

personally i think the gillette range doesn't have much more options.
they really can't go back to the superspeeds now the fusion is out?
and to increase the blades would seem silly.

[1OldGI]

I've actually had similar conversations on other sites about pipes and tobacco. Invariably the following things come up, and I think one could use these points on SE/DE/Str8 shaving as well: 1. For everyone of us on this site, how many are there (older gentlemen, for the most part) who have never stopped using SE/DE/Str8 or like us, figured out plastic and goo was for the birds but (because of the era they grew up in) don't use a computer or care to? Those of us on line may truly just be the vocal and connected minority, the tip of the iceberg. 2. Pipes, like razors, are truly a niche market and no matter how you slice it, we are very loyal and will pay what it takes to do what we like. We may need to cut corners occassionally (i.e. buy Williams shaving soap or a tub of Prince Albert as opposed to the more boutique stuff) but at the end of the day we will do what it takes to keep on doing something we enjoy. 3. Lots of very good pipe tobacco is no longer available because of the propoganda of the anti-tobacco nazis. I suspect the worst that can happen is the market shrinks and selection is maybe not what it once was but I doubt that will turn anyone who enjoys a pipe (or razors) away. We're a resiliant lot and will make the best of what is available even in ever shrinking selection. One would hope with such a culling of the heard, we will hopefully be left with the best of the best, the true survivors.
Pipes, tobacco, and SE/DE/Str8 shaving, will probably never enjoy the numbers and the market pull that it did back in their hay days but I'm confident that a small and dedicated band of afficionados will keep it a paying business. The market may shrink to respond to less demand but I doubt it will ever go away entirely.

[JimBow]

i've actually had similar conversations on other sites about pipes and tobacco. Invariably the following things come up, and i think one could use these points on se/de/str8 shaving as well: 1. For everyone of us on this site, how many are there (older gentlemen, for the most part) who have never stopped using se/de/str8 or like us, figured out plastic and goo was for the birds but (because of the era they grew up in) don't use a computer or care to? Those of us on line may truly just be the vocal and connected minority, the tip of the iceberg. 2. Pipes, like razors, are truly a niche market and no matter how you slice it, we are very loyal and will pay what it takes to do what we like. We may need to cut corners occassionally (i.e. Buy williams shaving soap or a tub of prince albert as opposed to the more boutique stuff) but at the end of the day we will do what it takes to keep on doing something we enjoy. 3. Lots of very good pipe tobacco is no longer available because of the propoganda of the anti-tobacco nazis. I suspect the worst that can happen is the market shrinks and selection is maybe not what it once was but i doubt that will turn anyone who enjoys a pipe (or razors) away. We're a resiliant lot and will make the best of what is available even in ever shrinking selection. One would hope with such a culling of the heard, we will hopefully be left with the best of the best, the true survivors.
Pipes, tobacco, and se/de/str8 shaving, will probably never enjoy the numbers and the market pull that it did back in their hay days but i'm confident that a small and dedicated band of afficionados will keep it a paying business. The market may shrink to respond to less demand but i doubt it will ever go away entirely.

+1

[grouse79]

Before I found B&B I had no idea what a double edge safety razor was - my only concept of a safety razor was the cartridge or disposable and I have been shaving for 15 years. I doubt many people under 45 or so whose father didn't still use an old DE would know what one was either or what to do with it.

I've wondered why supermarket chains such as Tesco's and Asda still stock DE blades (albeit only the one variety) without selling even a dirt cheap version of a razor to go with them.

Re whether this older method of shaving will really make a resurgence, take the example of bread. 100 years ago or more most people made their own bread at home. Some people still do so now, and there are many people who are getting back into it with breadmakers and so on. I've occasionally made my own and truly it is delicious but it is far easier to go to the supermarket and buy a loaf for 70 pence that lasts a week. There must be umpteen forums extoling the virtues of home prepared bread but I can't see anyone going back to making it all at home again. However, supermarkets still stock yeast and bread flour, perhaps in the same way they stock their single variety of shaving soap, cream and DE blades, for use by the small number of enthusiasts. I don't see home breadmaking dying off anytime soon so I think I'm OK imaging I'll have access to a DE of some kind over the next half century or so.

In relation to hygiene products, whilst I'm happy paying for high quality shaving supplies, I'm also happy just using supermarket own brand shampoo/conditioner, shower gel and antipespirant. It works in that it gets me clean and it's cheap - I daresay most men view their shaving stuff in the same way. However, it's kind of hard to do yourself much damage washing yourself whatever stuff you are using!

[moto]

is it just me or are we seeing more wetshaving products being released?
if some are saying it's a dying breed (which i don't really believe) then why are new products still being released and manufacturers not winding back production?

it seems strange that people are saying that the fusion or mach3 are more popular but the choice from gillette and other cartrige makers is very small. on the other hand wetshavers have so much more choice of pruducts.

do people really think the cartriges are that much better? or is it the marketing and the non existance of wetshaving marketing?

[mmack66]

is it just me or are we seeing more wetshaving products being released?
if some are saying it's a dying breed (which i don't really believe) then why are new products still being released and manufacturers not winding back production?

it seems strange that people are saying that the fusion or mach3 are more popular but the choice from gillette and other cartrige makers is very small. on the other hand wetshavers have so much more choice of pruducts.

do people really think the cartriges are that much better? or is it the marketing and the non existance of wetshaving marketing?

They haven't made or sold DE razors in the US for over 20 years.

Of course cartridge razors are more popular. That doesn't make them better.

[moto]

They haven't made or sold DE razors in the US for over 20 years.

Of course cartridge razors are more popular. That doesn't make them better.

maybe so macksta but soaps, creams, brushes, pre and aftershaves,colonges and even straights, to me it looks like there is more and more choice?

i agree that popularity doesn't always mean better. it just seems wetshavers have so much more choice but not many people aware of the choices?

[philamac]

Are we being too hard on cartridges? Many many people use them and find them fit for purpose. Can they all be deluded fools?:lol: Brushes and nice creams have the appeal of quality, tradition and the 3t's, e-shave etc all sell the M3 along with brushes in their sets. Have you seen their window displays?

From my own experience I got into brushes and creams first. I have 2 DE razors but frequently use my M3 too. My Dad, Uncle and grandfather all use brush and cream/soap, but they use cartridges. My main pleasure is in the brush/cream/cologne etc.


Can I suggest that their may be an increasing interest in the use of brushes and high end creams, soaps and associated products (as that is what the shops are selling), but that it will never become mainstream and that DE users are a subset of that interest group. A niche within a niche.

Some people care about or have in interest in these products. Most are happy with cartridge and canned foam. Disposable razors and a tin of foam can be bought in any supermarket for a few pence. If cost cutting is an issue most will go that way rather than the e-bay Gillette, £15 brush and £15 tub of cream.

[mmack66]

maybe so macksta but soaps, creams, brushes, pre and aftershaves,colonges and even straights, to me it looks like there is more and more choice?

i agree that popularity doesn't always mean better. it just seems wetshavers have so much more choice but not many people aware of the choices?

I don't believe that there are a whole lot of new products being brought to market. Most of what is out there has been around for years. There may be more interest in them but the choices have always been there.

I don't know what country you are from, but here in the United States, for the past 20 or 30 years, if you wanted to shave with a DE razor, it wouldn't have been easy to find a razor to use. With the advent of the internet and auction sites, things are much easier these days.

[moto]

Are we being too hard on cartridges? Many many people use them and find them fit for purpose. Can they all be deluded fools?:lol: Brushes and nice creams have the appeal of quality, tradition and the 3t's, e-shave etc all sell the M3 along with brushes in their sets. Have you seen their window displays?

From my own experience I got into brushes and creams first. I have 2 DE razors but frequently use my M3 too. My Dad, Uncle and grandfather all use brush and cream/soap, but they use cartridges. My main pleasure is in the brush/cream/cologne etc.


Can I suggest that their may be an increasing interest in the use of brushes and high end creams, soaps and associated products (as that is what the shops are selling), but that it will never become mainstream and that DE users are a subset of that interest group. A niche within a niche.

Some people care about or have in interest in these products. Most are happy with cartridge and canned foam. Disposable razors and a tin of foam can be bought in any supermarket for a few pence. If cost cutting is an issue most will go that way rather than the e-bay Gillette, £15 brush and £15 tub of cream.

i have no problem with cartridge uses, the many people who use them are not deluded fools, but i wonder how many of them are aware of de's and straights and soaps/creams etc? the ads are all about catridges and canned gels/foams.

you will find that a tub/cream, razor/blade and brush is cheaper and better in the long run.

[mparker762]

is it just me or are we seeing more wetshaving products being released?
if some are saying it's a dying breed (which i don't really believe) then why are new products still being released and manufacturers not winding back production?

Most of what you're seeing is simply the internet enabling access to old established products, including various european creams and soaps, and the Indian and Chinese DE razors. There are some new boutique soapmakers making new soaps and creams, but they're not major players by any means, and they're really part of a larger increase in the artisanal soapmaking industry (my local Kroger's supermarket sells several brands of locally-produced artisanal soap), and their shaving soap business is just along for the ride.

Meanwhile large well-established traditional makers are changing their products to cut costs, or are cutting products altogether. Merkur did change the Vision razor, but only to cut production costs - they didn't bother fixing any of the problems. DR Harris, Trumpers, Penhaligons - all their soaps and creams are shadows of their former selves, some to the point of being unusable (DR Harris cream). Yardley no long makes shave soaps, Penhaligons only makes a few soaps and creams nowadays instead of the half dozen they used to, Old Spice shave soap is gone, the really excellent Palmolive lather cream disappeared from CVS a few years ago, and Target used to carry Proraso. Swedish Gillettes have mysteriously dried up and may be gone for good. Simpsons has been bought by Vulfix. These are not signs of a healthy industry. While things may be booming on this forum, we are a very small portion of the global wetshaving industry, and I believe that industry is still in the midst of what is now a half-century-long decline.

Within the larger wetshaving genre though I do think straight razors are mounting a comeback, though their numbers are still very small. Dovo and TI are running triple shifts and have 9-month backorders trying to keep up with production, and TI is in the process of upgrading their equipment for the first time in a century, radically improving both quality and production speed, as well as reducing costs. TI has come out with their own line of brushes and soaps, and substantially expanded their accessory line. Henckels has started making straights again, and Boker is getting back in the game as well. You can even buy new C-Mon's and Dorko's again, though they're not what they used to be. Tony Miller has started a pretty substantial stropmaking company, employing several Amish fellows, much to their amusement as the7y think straight razors are hopelessly old-fashioned. All in all there's definite signs of a turnaround of sorts in the straight razor industry. OTOH it's coming back from almost complete death, so the amount of business involved is still far less than the DE business.

[MattR]

Just to correct an assumption that Gillette/P&G don't make DE blades. They do. If you aer using Astras you are using a Gillette/P&G product made in the Czech republic.

[Luc]

Just to correct an assumption that Gillette/P&G don't make DE blades. They do. If you aer using Astras you are using a Gillette/P&G product made in the Czech republic.

Depends, my Astra are made in Russia

[BarbeForte]

Eventually, like the Trac II, Atra, and possibly soon the Sensor, they will stop selling the handle but still sell the blades. Judging by the advertising they are doing to try to get Mach3 users to switch to the Fusion, Gillette/P&G will have to keep selling it or they will really be in a pickle. I don't know this for a fact, but the Mach3 probably sells better than the Fusion.

Before christmas I saw at Wal-Mart a gift package that contained Mach 3 cartridges and included a free Gillette Fusion razor.

I'm pretty sure that Gillette will keep on selling the Mach 3 cartridges for a while, as others said, they are still selling the Sensor blades even though competitors do so.

And for the DE/Straight popularity, it will never become big as most people I know still get a decent shave with their Mach 3. I guess we're all here because we did not. If I was satisfied with the Mach 3, I wouldn't mind paying the price, it's so simple.

[MattR]

Depends, my Astra are made in Russia
They may be but the factory is owned by Gillette/P&G. My point is these big guys also know a profit centre when they buy one. If there's demand someone will supply it, it is unlikely anyone is going to set up a new factory in a western country but I will bet my bottom dollar that the existing Astra, Feather and Personna factories are seing an increase in demand. I'd also be pretty sure Merkur are seeing a rise in demand for their razors too.

[moto]

i'm sure when the old established brands were starting out they were considered boutique soapmakers so we'll see how the new boutique brands go.

how many wetshavers are out there that are not on this site or use computers?

there are still some shops that carry certain brands and products which people think are good for them. so as long as they can get their stuff they won't bother looking online. i also think gillette and the big companies put some pressure on the shops to only carry their brands or a limited opposition brand. could you imagine if supermarket shelves were stocked with some of the brands on this site. most people just don't know these brands exist.
it's only because i'm a little picky and i am always thinking is there something better out there instead of thinking shaving shopping is just like grocery shopping. i didn't like gillette's range so i went looking online. you cannot get a de blade in most australian supermarkets and if you do it's like $10aus for 10 blades and only 1 brand, wilkinson sword.

[bluepunk18]

So expect more power, vibration, lights, music and sandwich making from the next Fusion - the "Fusion Cooker Ultrasonic Laserbeam"

I'd buy one of those, just to say I had one....Perhaps a Mach 5, Speed Racer-esque line?

Perhaps it'll end in something horrible like this : http://www.thetaoofmakingmoney.com/wp-content/uploads/images/shaving.jpg

[moto]

i've read somewhere else that india is big on de shaving. now imagine if they had access to the internet and could find out more about the products online. then this site would be massive.
i would imagine china is big too? man even if only the army was the only de user in china that would be a trillion and 546 million people?

[Sweeney Todd]

I was just going to mention India and Pakistan as a big user base for DE equipment.
I know I've several makes of blade from that region. It'd be
interesting to see the figures for LDCs compared to the western world.
Does anyone have experience or facts on DE versus cartridges in places
like Mexico or Brazil?

[Luc]

I'd buy one of those, just to say I had one....Perhaps a Mach 5, Speed Racer-esque line?

Perhaps it'll end in something horrible like this : http://www.thetaoofmakingmoney.com/wp-content/uploads/images/shaving.jpg
:lol:
at that stage, good old Veet should do the trick
http://www.chemistdirect.com.au/images/230405.gif

[moto]

I think there is a market out there in the rest of the world of the growing economies that the soap/cream, de, straight manufacturers are missing.
China and India will be and are a target they should try and market.

I do believe in the future people are gonna look twice at the price of cartriges if they ain't already. Especially in these current times.

As for myself, when i got to buy something for a present i try and look at brushes, razors and soaps for my family and friends.

[SavantStrike]

The market in developing countries is for cartridge razors.... Many developing countries are using the "old fashioned" straight and DE razors and there are major corporations coming in and trying to modernize things with cartridges.

There might be a surge in soaps and creams combined with brushes in the future, but I think a lot of people will just buy the 80 dollar M3 or Fusion handle and use a brush... They probably won't take the time to shave with a DE or a straight...

If we want more educated shavers, we as shaving enthusiasts will have to educate the public ourselves. And there's a lot of marketing propaganda to have to cut through to get to people and make them realize that an extra 10 minutes shaving is an acceptable thing...

[LondonCalling]

One would hope with such a culling of the heard, we will hopefully be left with the best of the best, the true survivors.

I like your thinking, but recent history is against you. Left to myself I would clear all the clutter out of my bathroom cabinet and start the day with a good lather of Coates Tea Tree and a "Swedish" Gillette. But guess what...

Then I settled on the old-style BodyShop cream as an acceptable Coates substitute, but guess what...

Given this history I'm almost scared to settle on a new blade, but the Derby I just tried was blunter than the week-old Swede I threw out.

This is rapidly becoming a hobby in which variety has replaced the quest for perfection. There's always be nice smellies, I suppose but if the supply of quality blades dries up that's it, really, isn't it?

[Dalejr]

I believe it is making a comeback, like many have said before it will never be as big as it once was which is a shame. I am relatively new and a younger member of this community. I am glad I found this site when I did or I would still be using overly priced, face scraping cartridge razors. To take out your brush, swirl it in soap or cream then work it into a rich lather and paint it on your face; then you take your fine crafted and engineered razor and glide it across your face like our fathers or grandfathers did. It makes you feel special and your keeping a long held tradition alive.... Wetshaving alows you to slow down, relax and enjoy yourself in our fast paced, hectic lives. Experimenting with fine smelling soaps and creams doesn't hurt either :biggrin:

[moto]

I believe it is making a comeback, like many have said before it will never be as big as it once was which is a shame. I am relatively new and a younger member of this community. I am glad I found this site when I did or I would still be using overly priced, face scraping cartridge razors. To take out your brush, swirl it in soap or cream then work it into a rich lather and paint it on your face; then you take your fine crafted and engineered razor and glide it across your face like our fathers or grandfathers did. It makes you feel special and your keeping a long held tradition alive.... Wetshaving alows you to slow down, relax and enjoy yourself in our fast paced, hectic lives. Experimenting with fine smelling soaps and creams doesn't hurt either :biggrin:

well said,

the thing about tradition, i just can't see me self passing down a fusion to me kids? it doesn't mean anything to me, it's like a kids toy with all it's bells n whistles! also there's no sense of luxury and relaxation with it. the mach3 with a nice handle is ok on the other hand. but nothing beats a beautiful straight or metal/wooden/ivory etc handle de for tradition or beauty!

[Seamaster]

I'm a frequent poster on a general Irish message board where at any time there are about one to two thousand members online at any time and double that number of guests. Since early this year there's a thread active with 10-20 new DE users who have migrated from carts. I only started shaving with a safety razor after twenty years of cartridge systems and have not looked back. Three of my friends have also moved to safety razors since and I've another three or four seriously looking at it - they've asked me to send them links and let them know if I see some nice vintage Gillettes.

I found the shave forums via a post on DE shaving on a watch forum. The original shaving thread on there continues to rumble on, with at least half a dozen new converts (myself included).


If DE is dying out, how do Merkur, et al and the other multitude of blade manufacturers make their money? They must have twigged there was still a market for them somewhere.

Theirs is a margin business. In comparison to P&G et al, who run a volume business. Think Apple versus Dell.

[mparker762]

One would hope with such a culling of the heard, we will hopefully be left with the best of the best, the true survivors.

If history is any guide they're unlikely to be the best of the best but rather the best of the rest.

In the pipe world, we lost Balkan Sobranie, Old Rattrays, and Sullivan's Gentlemans's Mixture, but Prince Albert and Captain Black stayed around. Wetshavers lost Yardley and even the lowly-but-excellent Palmolive, but Williams is still in every grocery store in the US.

In the straight world, we lost Dubl Duck, Puma, Genco, and Wade & Butcher, but somehow Dovo and Geisen&Forsthoff survived. Fortunately Henckels and C-Mon are now available new, and Boker and Dorko are dipping their toe in via Wacker, and it appears recently Revisor has restarted their grinders and has razors for sale. But Puma is just a chinese-made junk brand, and Dubl Duck makes dog-grooming tools.

[The National Razor]

It's a quiet movement. It's growing, but will never tip the scales. It's for the chosen few, not the masses. Most people are content with "good enough."

I know a friend of mine is looking to get into it, but it is a path that is for the most part lonely (save online havens such as B&B).

[SavantStrike]

It's a quiet movement. It's growing, but will never tip the scales. It's for the chosen few, not the masses. Most people are content with "good enough."

I know a friend of mine is looking to get into it, but it is a path that is for the most part lonely (save online havens such as B&B).

Imagine where it would be without the internet though. When DE's were no longer readily available in the stores, how many loyal users switched over to cartridges out off necessity? I'm guessing more than a few. Now that the enthusiasts can connect online, things are better than they looked 15 years ago I would imagine.

[The National Razor]

I've actually had similar conversations on other sites about pipes and tobacco. Invariably the following things come up, and I think one could use these points on SE/DE/Str8 shaving as well: 1. For everyone of us on this site, how many are there (older gentlemen, for the most part) who have never stopped using SE/DE/Str8 or like us, figured out plastic and goo was for the birds but (because of the era they grew up in) don't use a computer or care to? Those of us on line may truly just be the vocal and connected minority, the tip of the iceberg. 2. Pipes, like razors, are truly a niche market and no matter how you slice it, we are very loyal and will pay what it takes to do what we like. We may need to cut corners occassionally (i.e. buy Williams shaving soap or a tub of Prince Albert as opposed to the more boutique stuff) but at the end of the day we will do what it takes to keep on doing something we enjoy. 3. Lots of very good pipe tobacco is no longer available because of the propoganda of the anti-tobacco nazis. I suspect the worst that can happen is the market shrinks and selection is maybe not what it once was but I doubt that will turn anyone who enjoys a pipe (or razors) away. We're a resiliant lot and will make the best of what is available even in ever shrinking selection. One would hope with such a culling of the heard, we will hopefully be left with the best of the best, the true survivors.
Pipes, tobacco, and SE/DE/Str8 shaving, will probably never enjoy the numbers and the market pull that it did back in their hay days but I'm confident that a small and dedicated band of afficionados will keep it a paying business. The market may shrink to respond to less demand but I doubt it will ever go away entirely.

co-sign. I also smoke a pipe occasionally--there a handful of places to go to for tobacco

[DanOK]

I believe the market is growing for wet shavers and will continue to accelerate over the coming years. The analogy I would use is the decline of the Big Three networks by cable tv in the late 60's and early 70's. This decline was accelerated with the launch of RCA satcom one and the foresight of Mr. Outrageous, Ted Turner, placing WTBS on a transponder . He saw the value of providing choice and the advantage of segmenting the entertainment market (Big Three) with a industry (cable tv) that really only had a minimal market in rural America at that time.

P&G and others refuse to recognize that the market is segmenting as we all search for our personal niche using the internet as a focal point. We are not only a group of friends with a similar interest but a market share unto ourselves. Each poll we do, no matter how silly at times, is market research for ourselves and provides each of us information we relate to those who show an interest in wet shaving.

My favorite cologne come's from Sue at SCS. Is she the next P&G, I don't know, but I can remember when the entertainment and sports programing network went up on satcom one and no one wanted to carry that feed. A small vendor taking on Wide World of Sports. In fact, it was a few years before anyone was confident that ESPN would stay around long enough to find a market. But word of mouth, and requests by a niche market of sport's fanatics to their local cable operators for programming, resulted in the media giant we see today. Catering to hundreds of niche fans ESPN's Sport Center reports on activities I don't even understand much less would try. Jumping off a mountain with what looks like a piece of 1x12 strapped to your feet is way out on the edge of being a sport in my book. Now drunk snowmobiling would be something I would like to try.

Anyway, I am quite confident in the growth of our passion for shaving. Niche markets are always where the action is to be found. Hey, I've got a seven year old grandson that understands how to make lather.

[SavantStrike]

I believe the market is growing for wet shavers and will continue to accelerate over the coming years. The analogy I would use is the decline of the Big Three networks by cable tv in the late 60's and early 70's. This decline was accelerated with the launch of RCA satcom one and the foresight of Mr. Outrageous, Ted Turner, placing WTBS on a transponder . He saw the value of providing choice and the advantage of segmenting the entertainment market (Big Three) with a industry (cable tv) that really only had a minimal market in rural America at that time.

P&G and others refuse to recognize that the market is segmenting as we all search for our personal niche using the internet as a focal point. We are not only a group of friends with a similar interest but a market share unto ourselves. Each poll we do, no matter how silly at times, is market research for ourselves and provides each of us information we relate to those who show an interest in wet shaving.

My favorite cologne come's from Sue at SCS. Is she the next P&G, I don't know, but I can remember when the entertainment and sports programing network went up on satcom one and no one wanted to carry that feed. A small vendor taking on Wide World of Sports. In fact, it was a few years before anyone was confident that ESPN would stay around long enough to find a market. But word of mouth, and requests by a niche market of sport's fanatics to their local cable operators for programming, resulted in the media giant we see today. Catering to hundreds of niche fans ESPN's Sport Center reports on activities I don't even understand much less would try. Jumping off a mountain with what looks like a piece of 1x12 strapped to your feet is way out on the edge of being a sport in my book. Now drunk snowmobiling would be something I would like to try.

Anyway, I am quite confident in the growth of our passion for shaving. Niche markets are always where the action is to be found. Hey, I've got a seven year old grandson that understands how to make lather.

Woo Yeah!!!

Get him a razor for his 8th birthday!

[Bulldawg]

Imagine where it would be without the internet though. When DE's were no longer readily available in the stores, how many loyal users switched over to cartridges out off necessity? I'm guessing more than a few. Now that the enthusiasts can connect online, things are better than they looked 15 years ago I would imagine.

Great point...without the internet I would probably still be walking around with piss poor shaves and/or ingrowns as a result of using Mach3s, Fusions, or Electrics :bored: One way to get more people involved is to find a way for wetshaving related sites to show up when people do a google search for "shaving". I stumbled upon this site by doing just that :001_smile

[DonLafontaine]

Perhaps, the shaving industry will eventually experience an upheaval similar to that experienced by the food industry. Specifically, people used to grow their own food and eat healthy meals and would not be consistently eating processed foods. Also, this was the time before additives, and chemicals and food was basically just that... food. Then, the whole industry experienced a revolution where Americans believed that the future was "better living through chemistry" and an increasing number of chemicals and additives were inserted into our food and people forgot how to eat properly.

Similar to the increasing emphasis on organic and whole foods in the food industry, I would not be surprised if shaving companies eventually jumped on the natural bandwagon and began producing shaving creams that were more natural. There has been some publicity out recently to the effect that the canned gels that are manufactured by Gillette contained some of the worst chemicals.

If Gillette realizes that there is a market (in the case of Safeway in Northern California, it realized that there was a future in organic food and began copying Whole Foods, for example), they will introduce a premium line of shaving products that would focus on natural ingredients and organic substances. Of course, they would be able to charge a premium for this product (much like food) because of the natural ingredients that are considered to be more expensive.

With respect to the blade, I agree that Gillette has jumped the shark in placing five blades in a razor. Capitalism and the free market depends on product differentiation in order to increase profits and, as a result, Gillette will need to convince the average consumer that their product is different from a product manufactured by another company. In this case, most people point out how absurd it would be to produce a razor with six or more blades and, given that reality, I believe that the only way for Gillette to go is down: i.e., one blade.

A new shaving system might contain a natural shaving cream that is considered to be "premium" as I referenced above. I don't think anyone will bring back the badger brush any time soon to the mainstream market. However, I can conceive of a day that Gillette begins to sell razors with one blade as opposed to five or more because of the necessity of product differentiation. Of course, they would then have to convince you that this one blade is superior to the five blades that they were selling a previously, but that can be left up to the people at marketing.

[moto]

i've talked before about gillette's products and the brand power they have in supermarkets so would stocking the products we know on the shelf next to gillette be a good option or would someplace else be better? for example mens only stores? i think i wouldn't hurt but i think there are other options. one being mens clothes stores, the up market ones, eg ralph lauren, gucci, valentino, prada can store the upper end soaps/creams, razors, brushes etc and the lower end stores, general pants, diesel, abercrombie n fitch etc, the middle to lower range of wetshaving gear.

i think some of the beautiful pics i've seen on this site of peoples shaving gear would look superb in a ralph lauren shop on display. wouldn't take up space and they would compliment some of the brands edt and colonges.
i mean anything to get the products out there on display because right now they're hidden on the internet. if i saw gillettes products in a ralph lauren store next to adp, t&h or proraso for that matter with a nice brush and razor i know which one would at least look like it belonged there.

gillette=hospital food, our wetshaving products=a nice restaurant.

[SavantStrike]

Perhaps, the shaving industry will eventually experience an upheaval similar to that experienced by the food industry. Specifically, people used to grow their own food and eat healthy meals and would not be consistently eating processed foods. Also, this was the time before additives, and chemicals and food was basically just that... food. Then, the whole industry experienced a revolution where Americans believed that the future was "better living through chemistry" and an increasing number of chemicals and additives were inserted into our food and people forgot how to eat properly.

Similar to the increasing emphasis on organic and whole foods in the food industry, I would not be surprised if shaving companies eventually jumped on the natural bandwagon and began producing shaving creams that were more natural. There has been some publicity out recently to the effect that the canned gels that are manufactured by Gillette contained some of the worst chemicals.

If Gillette realizes that there is a market (in the case of Safeway in Northern California, it realized that there was a future in organic food and began copying Whole Foods, for example), they will introduce a premium line of shaving products that would focus on natural ingredients and organic substances. Of course, they would be able to charge a premium for this product (much like food) because of the natural ingredients that are considered to be more expensive.

With respect to the blade, I agree that Gillette has jumped the shark in placing five blades in a razor. Capitalism and the free market depends on product differentiation in order to increase profits and, as a result, Gillette will need to convince the average consumer that their product is different from a product manufactured by another company. In this case, most people point out how absurd it would be to produce a razor with six or more blades and, given that reality, I believe that the only way for Gillette to go is down: i.e., one blade.

A new shaving system might contain a natural shaving cream that is considered to be "premium" as I referenced above. I don't think anyone will bring back the badger brush any time soon to the mainstream market. However, I can conceive of a day that Gillette begins to sell razors with one blade as opposed to five or more because of the necessity of product differentiation. Of course, they would then have to convince you that this one blade is superior to the five blades that they were selling a previously, but that can be left up to the people at marketing.

Perhaps you're right but I fear they would simply come out with a new 5 bladed razor and try to maintain their own status quo. The shaving soap and cream thing might come around but that only increases the availability of those products and does nothing for blades.

IF Gillette ever went back to a single blade, I would expect a fair number of gimmicks. Maybe blades made out of titanium or some strange use of carbon fiber (though not on the blade edge). I would also expect the geometry to be different.

And Moto you bring up a good point. Some guys would switch if they saw the difference, but a lot of the guys I've talked to anymore are pretty much dead to the shaving industry. They've had such mediocre shaves for so long and they've been convinced that more women like stubble (and they dont!) that they are content to only shave 1-2 times a week... or less. They then say that they have saved themselves time, money, and irritation, and that time thing would kill wetshaving... You can't get a good 2 minute wet shave, but you can get a good one in 7... People want their 5 minutes.