Are paddle strops inferior?

[Fiddle-Dee]

First I would like to introduce myself to the BB Forum. I teach chemistry by day and make violins and violas by night. You might think what does that have to do with strops? In a word sharpening. I am relatively new to Straight Razors but quite old in sharpening many tools from planes with blades that are 8mm wide to ones that are 2ft long, gouges of various sizes and sweeps etc. I am no stranger to keeping a keen edge. When I started SS I made a paddle strop just for my bathroom and charged it with Chromium Oxide. I have been really enjoying the results but after reading up on this forum it seems like SS ultimately opt for conventional barber leather strops.
I ordered a Ill. # 827 and a #127 to do my own research. Did I make the right choice as i was really getting great shaves with my paddle.
Mike

[mparker762]

Paddle strops are generally shorter and heavier, so hanging strops tend to be faster and easier to use once you learn to keep them pulled tight. Also a little give is helpful when stropping, and not all paddles have that little bit of flex. A nice compromise are the loom-type strops, which tend to be lighter than paddle strops, and let you adjust the amount of flex, though they are also generally pretty short so they require more laps than a long hanger.

All three styles work well though. I tend to use a hanging strop at home and either a loom strop or paddle when travelling.

[Fiddle-Dee]

I have never seen the loom type. My paddle strops are about 1ft long plus handle. Sharpening razors is still fairly new concept to me. I can pretty much shave with any of my woodworking tools as I usually know I have an edge when the hair fall off easily from my arms.(I have hairless arms:blush:) I normaly only strop carving knives and leave everything else with an 8000 norton honed secondary bevel.
Razors are different in that the tool itself is designed to be honed and the spine gives the proper honing angle. Then comes the confusing part for me. The hanging strop gives ever so slightly which makes me think that there is something going on with a secondary micro bevel. If I had one of those 30000 grit hones, I might be inclined to put a piece of tape over the spine and hone a secondary bevel to see if has a similar effect to the strop. Or maybe the same can be achieve with a taped spine and then finish with plain leather on the paddle strop.
Obviously hanging strops are the correct tool or they would have been replaced by something better. If these strops work well, and as you say are faster too, I would someday like to invest in Tony Miller's as he seems to offer an incredible handmade strop. I would like to get his horse hide version for the final finish as I understand that it cuts slower which probably relate to a finer grit. Does any of that make sense?
Mike

[Sticky]

One of my hangers is an Illinois #127. I also use an old Torrey loom and a paddle. They all work well. Like mparker, my hangers usually stay home when I travel.

Tony's strops are in a class all by themselves, IMO.

[Seraphim]

Plain leather strops have close to zero abrasive qualities (there is some though) they do something else to the edge that I have not yet discovered what exactly....but they certainly work!

Personally I enjoy using the hanging plain leather strop. The feel and sound of the razor zipping up and down the strop is so satisfying....

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=gnqXSCFwdSU

I can't speak to the quality of Illinois strops, but Tony Millers strops will blow you away with the fine craftsmanship....really, not enough can be said about a product with such quality in this day and age!

[Tony Miller]

Thanks guys, I'm blushing!

For the most part I feel unless you have a specific reason to want a small, compact strop (or already own) like a paddle, the hanging strop is the better choice. A hanger will typically be wider (with a few exceptions) and be longer which means more surface area and should work faster.

Some paddle only reasons may be that you are short on space, that you are a beginner on a tight budget and want both a daily use strop and something pasted. Yes, pastes can be used on hanging strops but many beginners have trouble keeping a strop taut or in not lifting the spine and pastes will just cause an edge to round even faster if either of these mistakes are made.

Fiddle-Dee, it sounds like we think alike...or maybe think too much :wink:
I also wonder what even that tiny amount of flex is doing to the edge. The hone/stone only guys always say a paddle will round an edge as it flexes a little but what about a hanging strop. Even though not really abrasive it is creating wear on an edge.

Now, flexing in paddles. I own a few loom strops and they work well too provided oone releases the tension when in storage. To me at least the wooden "flex" paddles are still very stiff. Yes you can flex them but try pinching one between your fingers to make it flex and then tell me if you use that much pressue when stropping.

And in case anyone wants to ask :biggrin: I tried a 24" long paddle for daily use and it is simply too long and too hard to be practical for most people.

Tony

[professorchaos]

I have a couple of paddle strops. I find their shorter lengths and firmer surface to be ideal for pastes.

[jlander]

I have a 4-sided pasted paddle from Tony for touch ups, a 2-sided paddle (also from Tony) that I use for travel, and a Tony Miller 3" Artisan Black Latigo/Brushed Horsehide that I salvaged from what Ike left of my house (I'm still hoping the canvas/linen can be saved).

I love the 2-sided paddle for travel but would not take for the hanger when I'm at home. I'm just more comfortable with it. I don't think it (the paddle) is in any way inferior, just different.

[netsurfr]

I was going to chime in but you have the definitive word from Tony Miller... nothing to add after his epistle.

[riooso]

Tony has it covered it but I will add a thought. The reason that a hanging strop is good is that a good stropping for me is about 50 laps in every day use and about a 100 laps, or more, after it has come off the hones and pastes. I personally would find that tedious on a paddle and because the length is usually shorter than a hanging strop I would probably need more than that.

Take Care,
R

[Fiddle-Dee]

Thanks guys, I'm blushing!

For the most part I feel unless you have a specific reason to want a small, compact strop (or already own) like a paddle, the hanging strop is the better choice. A hanger will typically be wider (with a few exceptions) and be longer which means more surface area and should work faster.

Some paddle only reasons may be that you are short on space, that you are a beginner on a tight budget and want both a daily use strop and something pasted. Yes, pastes can be used on hanging strops but many beginners have trouble keeping a strop taut or in not lifting the spine and pastes will just cause an edge to round even faster if either of these mistakes are made.

Fiddle-Dee, it sounds like we think alike...or maybe think too much :wink:
I also wonder what even that tiny amount of flex is doing to the edge. The hone/stone only guys always say a paddle will round an edge as it flexes a little but what about a hanging strop. Even though not really abrasive it is creating wear on an edge.

Now, flexing in paddles. I own a few loom strops and they work well too provided oone releases the tension when in storage. To me at least the wooden "flex" paddles are still very stiff. Yes you can flex them but try pinching one between your fingers to make it flex and then tell me if you use that much pressue when stropping.

And in case anyone wants to ask :biggrin: I tried a 24" long paddle for daily use and it is simply too long and too hard to be practical for most people.

Tony

I think it boils down to a paddle strop is basically polishing the entire bevel. Anyone who has been sharpening edges for a while knows that it takes much more effort to hone the entire bevel vs making a secondary bevel. The secondary bevel also makes the bevel angle a little larger giving the edge more durability. The question is is that happening with the hanging strop? I do not have a naked strop the are all pasted even if very lightly with something. I have had very good results, but being relatively new to SS I have nothing to compare it with.
Mike

[professorchaos]

Thanks guys, I'm blushing!

No blushing Tony! You go out of your way to make top notch strops and it shows. Moreover, it isn't simply a matter of them being the best out there. Nothing else comes close.

[Fiddle-Dee]

Tony,
If I had a Ill 827 and a 127 in my mind that is 827 being like a courser grit and the 127 being finer. Would your horse hide be the next grit if I were to look for the ultimate edge?
Mike

[vgod]

with my paddles, i like to finish honing with paste on them. i tend to not do to many strokes as compared to a longer hanging strop. and i use a small loom strop when i travel. much more compact.

good luck.

vgod

[kahunamoose]

Not inferior, but a different beast. When I started shaving with straights I made paddle strops, one pasted and one clean as my before every shave strop. The pasted strop is still in use frequently as a touch up for a blade that will not strop up like it used to, or as the final polish on a blade getting a full fledged hone. The clean paddle was great for learning how to strop because it did not go slack or move around. I moved on to a hanging strop because …… well, crap, it’s just sexy. It does not strop better than the paddle, it’s just more convenient. I’ve read that a little slack in a hanging strop improves the edge, but I don’t buy it. Even flat must barely fold the edge the wrong way on each stroke. Also, it does not seem like a good idea to me to shave directly off a pasted strop, if that is what you are doing. 1.) The probability is good that you will get some of the paste in you should you have a boo-boo, even if you are washing it off the blade. 2.) Stropping on clean leather will definitely ‘comb’ or dress the edge coming off the paste, which is still actually cutting at a microscopic level like a very, very fine hone. So your investment in strop(s) without paste will soon be evident to you. And they are gonna look so good hanging off the bathroom door or where ever you hook them up.

[Tony Miller]

Tony,
If I had a Ill 827 and a 127 in my mind that is 827 being like a courser grit and the 127 being finer. Would your horse hide be the next grit if I were to look for the ultimate edge?
Mike

The horsehide will feel smoother and have far less draw than either of those strops. I sort of prefer it as a finishing strop, not as much as a daily use strop unless buffed a bit.

Tony

[Fiddle-Dee]

Not inferior, but a different beast. When I started shaving with straights I made paddle strops, one pasted and one clean as my before every shave strop. The pasted strop is still in use frequently as a touch up for a blade that will not strop up like it used to, or as the final polish on a blade getting a full fledged hone. The clean paddle was great for learning how to strop because it did not go slack or move around. I moved on to a hanging strop because …… well, crap, it’s just sexy. It does not strop better than the paddle, it’s just more convenient. I’ve read that a little slack in a hanging strop improves the edge, but I don’t buy it. Even flat must barely fold the edge the wrong way on each stroke. Also, it does not seem like a good idea to me to shave directly off a pasted strop, if that is what you are doing. 1.) The probability is good that you will get some of the paste in you should you have a boo-boo, even if you are washing it off the blade. 2.) Stropping on clean leather will definitely ‘comb’ or dress the edge coming off the paste, which is still actually cutting at a microscopic level like a very, very fine hone. So your investment in strop(s) without paste will soon be evident to you. And they are gonna look so good hanging off the bathroom door or where ever you hook them up.

It sounds like you are saying that the hangers are going to crank up the finesse of the edges and you went through a similar evolution of putting on the edge.
Mike

Mike

[Fiddle-Dee]

NISH?
The horsehide will feel smoother and have far less draw than either of those strops. I sort of prefer it as a finishing strop, not as much as a daily use strop unless buffed a bit.

Tony

Hi Tony,
What do you mean that "you sort of prefer it as a finishing strop" or am I parsing your words too much. In my mind you want to get the edge as close to perfection as materials and technique allow, but there does come a point of diminishing returns. I bought these strops because they were reasonably priced for something I wanted to try. They may not indeed be my final strops as i understand that yours are in a league of there own. Knowing what I am trying to do, what would be the ultimate TM set up from start to finish?
Mike

[kahunamoose]

Hanging or paddle does not matter, the point is that a plain leather strop surface is the final finishing tool on a razor’s edge. There is no grinding or polishing, the leather ONLY provides something to grab onto so the microscopic “teeth” left on the blade after honing will be straightened, aligned, pointed in the same direction, however you want to look at it. This is what I mean by dressed or groomed or combed. I actually think combed gives the most correct mental image. Like stones giving a finer performance as one moves into higher grits, so too will a strop yield a finer edge if the strop is smoother I.E. has less draw. This usually means more expensive and finely treated leather. Or, in the case of horsehide verses cowhide, the fineness of the fibers and how they are laced together in the beast’s hide is just more conducive to grabbing tinier metal spikes on the razor’s edge and bending them into shape. Probably not that simple, but I think it gets at the point.

[Fiddle-Dee]

Hanging or paddle does not matter, the point is that a plain leather strop surface is the final finishing tool on a razor’s edge. There is no grinding or polishing, the leather ONLY provides something to grab onto so the microscopic “teeth” left on the blade after honing will be straightened, aligned, pointed in the same direction, however you want to look at it. This is what I mean by dressed or groomed or combed. I actually think combed gives the most correct mental image. Like stones giving a finer performance as one moves into higher grits, so too will a strop yield a finer edge if the strop is smoother I.E. has less draw. This usually means more expensive and finely treated leather. Or, in the case of horsehide verses cowhide, the fineness of the fibers and how they are laced together in the beast’s hide is just more conducive to grabbing tinier metal spikes on the razor’s edge and bending them into shape. Probably not that simple, but I think it gets at the point.

It would be interesting to actually get some microscopy going on this as there are several interperatations of what is really happening. I think you imagery works for me just fine and makes sense but would'nt it be interesting to quantify the results? Maybe as more people get into this, some grassroots science can emerge from it so we can all get the most out of our shave.
I don't have the equipment to make this kind of a study but I bet there are some straight shavers that do. My simple way at measuring sharpness is to see how close a single pass shave gets me. I am getting closer to the point where I could walk away from a double pass and still feel fairly close, but I bet it could be better. Can't wait to try naked strop and see the difference.
Mike

[Tony Miller]

Fiddle Dee,

I don't want to comment specifically on my products here but will speak in generalities. For me, the ultimate setup, regardless of maker or brand is to refine an edge or bevel created on a stone with a rigid, abrasive pasted paddle (flat surface, hard surface, smooth and without a nap like suede) when needed and then move onto a "naked" unpasted hanging strop with a good amount of draw. Maybe a latigo or oil treated leather, either cowhide or horsehide, something like an Illinois 827 or a Dovo or Jemico with a fair amount of draw. A Hand American Cordovan or my Latigo would be similar surface choices to those mentioned but in more of a handcrafted product. I would then do a few finishing passes on a firm surfaced, lower draw strop like an Illinois 127 or 361 or a natural Horsehide.

Some fellows, me included like a heavy draw for heavy razors, and a light draw for lighter weight or delicate razors. Other start on a heavy draw and finish on a light with every razor.

I really don't think the exact type of leather is as important as simply using a plain leather as the final strop before your shave. Much of what people like or dislike on a strop is the feedback it gives. Some just feel "right" in use even though the resulting edge may wind up identical to one that does not feel "right".

I like a certain level of quality on anything I buy and like hand crafted products and attention to detail. If all I had though was a factory made Illinois 361 I doubt my face would feel any difference in the edge.

As a point of reference I was an Illinois dealer before I made my own and still think they are fine strops.

Hope this helps,
Tony

[Fiddle-Dee]

Hi Tony,
The quality of a tool is always directly related to it's function. I may not be able to afford to own everything I want but eventually end up with the very best. In my case hand tools are most highly treasured. Why should the joy of hand tools end in my violin making studio when Straight Razors and the tools that keep them at their very best can be taken into my bathroom/shaving studio.
Mike

[Bacchus]

I cant speak for Tony's Strops.... yet... but the character of the man is something to be honored, which to me greatly enhances the quality of the product

[jlander]

I agree with Tony. I have one of his Artisan 3" Latigo/Horsehide combinations. I go 30 on the Latigo and 30 on the Horsehide prior to each shave.

My travel strop is a paddle with Latigo on one side and Horsehide on the other.

[richmondesi]

i cant speak for tony's strops.... Yet... But the character of the man is something to be honored, which to me greatly enhances the quality of the product

+1

[Fiddle-Dee]

Just a follow up with my own empirical results on the age old question that started this thread. After getting the hang of stropping with a hanger, I conclude that a superior edge is produced. In particular, a razor I had (an old Excelsior) that I thought of as a mediocre blade now is in league with anything old or new that I thought were much better. I basically do linen the Russian then the 127. All Razors pass the HHT and more importantly they work better on my face. I could easily get by with two passes on my black Southern Mediteranian wirey beard what three passes would have done before.
My personal conclusion is that hanging strops survived centuries not just for tradition, but because the work better for razors. I think I have mentioned befor that sharpening tools is a way of life for me, but the art of sharpening a razor is indeed a unique corner of the world of sharp edges.
Mike

[bbsupersport]

Thank you gentlemen, for a wonderfully informative thread.

As I am entering into the world of straight razor shaving, I had many questions about strops and stropping techniques that I found answers to here. Now I just have to decide on what's the best value for my dollar and what is absolutely necessary to get started.

From what I have read here and gathered from other sources, I think I need a four sided paddle strop with some pastes for touching up the razor and a good leather strop for finishing and daily use. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Sorry Fiddle-Dee for hi-jacking your thread, but couldn't resist because it was perfect timing for me!

[Fiddle-Dee]

Hi Bill,
This is a great group and are very helpful a warm to newbies. I picked up lots of good info as you will find out, straight razors are in a world all their own. The art and science begins will the blade edge and ends in the best shave of your life. I use to think I understood what sharp meant as I sharpen all kinds of tools being a luthier but the level of sharpness of a straight razor is the ultimate edge. I hope you have as much fun with it as I am being relatively new to straight razors. A good quality strop is essential and the lightest of touches when honing and stropping. Best of luck.
Mike

[riooso]

I would agree with the guys the hanging stop is the preferred method for stropping before a shave. On the other hand the paddle strop has entered into a new and valuable step in the honing process for many of us. With the use of diamond pastes and sprays it has become a pretty good honing tool for us that want a sharp razor for the least amount of expense and time. I started with the standard 4 sided strop (from you know who :biggrin:) 3.0, 1.0, 0.5, 0.25 pastes and a DMT8EE as recommended by some of the more experienced members. It has worked very well indeed but now I am starting to look for a little more smoothness and duribility that only stones can offer. I bought a 16K Shapton and therefore eliminated the 1.0 step on the strop and noticed a large jump in shaving comfort and edge durability.

Take Care,
Richard

[Fiddle-Dee]

I would agree with the guys the hanging stop is the preferred method for stropping before a shave. On the other hand the paddle strop has entered into a new and valuable step in the honing process for many of us. With the use of diamond pastes and sprays it has become a pretty good honing tool for us that want a sharp razor for the least amount of expense and time. I started with the standard 4 sided strop (from you know who :biggrin:) 3.0, 1.0, 0.5, 0.25 pastes and a DMT8EE as recommended by some of the more experienced members. It has worked very well indeed but now I am starting to look for a little more smoothness and duribility that only stones can offer. I bought a 16K Shapton and therefore eliminated the 1.0 step on the strop and noticed a large jump in shaving comfort and edge durability.

Take Care,
Richard

I believe the strops in this application are honing not stroping. Properly lapped stones or any dead flat honing surface in my mind produces a uniform edge where the honing strops with the paste help to smooth them out but not keep them uniform.
The original idea for this thread was to find out what produced the best results after the hones and pastes. I don't get why it works but the hanging strop with good tecnique in my empirical experience is superior. There are too many variables to make my conclusion scientific in any way given the wide range of strops of both types out there and the material itself, it's preperation etc... This is why many woodworkers with years of sharpening experience most often advise beginers to learn one sharpening system and getting real good at it before spending time and money on another method and never realy learn what is going on.
With all the tools I have ever sharpened I would say the razor is the easiest in that the bevel angle is preset for honing and stropping but requires the more finesse in the "touch" of any tool I have ever worked with. To me that sort of elevates sharpening and stropping razors to an art form. (or maybe I am just crazy.:w00t:
Mike

[Bacchus]

No you're not crazy, unless everyone here is crazy as well... ... you may be on to something there.... hmm...



:biggrin: