Future of Tallow.......

[sphiny]

Well, I read the thread in this forum regarding the reformulation of Penhaligon's tallow soaps to vegetable alternatives.

Personally, I love my AOS Lavender soap, with all its tallowy goodness.

So, given the fairly steady phasing out, do you guys think we will one day be left with no tallow-based options out there???

As I understand it, the main options out there now are AOS, Dr. Harris (partial tallow, according to a very helpful sticky post), Tabac, MWF????

Also, how does everyone get wind of the upcoming changes???

[Austin]

In all likelihood, all if not most of the shave soaps will evolve to vegetable base. The only way to verify the formulation is to check the ingredient list. Some of the veteran shavers will be able to tell the difference by the shave and lather.

[Dharion]

You know disappearing tallow is a safe sign of Shavepocalypse :001_huh:

seriously for someone who enjoys tallow based soaps this is very bad.. I mean I really think of buying some of the old-formula D.R. Harris

[momo360]

how does one tell if Harris refills are old or new formulas?

Oh! and alternatives you say? Arko! :prrr:

[Dharion]

mh.. maybe we start a thread about it and try to compare the content (the list on the back)

[Austin]

how does one tell if Harris refills are old or new formulas?

Oh! and alternatives you say? Arko! :prrr:

I love Arko.............................................. ................Not! :biggrin:

It's best to check the ingredients label.

[joshmpdx]

You know disappearing tallow is a safe sign of Shavepocalypse :001_huh:


:laugh::lol:

wont there always be the artisans? it's the triple milled tallow based that looks like it's going extinct

[whiskerlips]

At least MWF is safe. You can't make MWF without WF. Plus no sheep are killed for MWF. They just recieve a nice shave.

[SepticTank]

At least MWF is safe. You can't make MWF without WF. Plus no sheep are killed for MWF. They just recieve a nice shave.

But "WF" is lanolin... nothing to do with the tallow base...

[Rollsshaver]

Better stock up on AOS!!

[soapbox]

:laugh::lol:

wont there always be the artisans?

Of course! Cold process artisans will always be around. Now, if Dad (http://www.gmsoap.com)would finish that new building and get back to experimenting with the tallow shave soap and cream soap, I could start seeding samples... :thumbup1:

[tblech]

Maybe this has been the subject of a post already, but why are they changing from tallow to veggie oil? Not like tallow is in short supply, you should see all the tallow Procter and Gamble has at their Cincinnati facility!

[BroJohn]

Maybe this has been the subject of a post already, but why are they changing from tallow to veggie oil? Not like tallow is in short supply, you should see all the tallow Procter and Gamble has at their Cincinnati facility!

The veggie-Nazi seagull-scrubbers run amok. You're gonna be Vegan and you're gonna like it.

-- John Gehman

[whiskerlips]

But "WF" is lanolin... nothing to do with the tallow base...

I think a lot of people still consider it a tallow based soap so I was throwing it out there.

[Rughi]

The veggie-Nazi seagull-scrubbers run amok. You're gonna be Vegan and you're gonna like it.

-- John Gehman

DING DING DING !!!

And John brings on the end of this thread's useful life by invoking Nazis.

[Rollsshaver]

DING DING DING !!!

And John brings on the end of this thread's useful life by invoking Nazis.


I am not sure if Godwins Law applies to tallow.............:001_huh:

[Rughi]

I am not sure if Godwins Law applies to tallow.............:001_huh:

Let's hope not.

I just hope that after some time passes that I'll still be able to apply tallow to my face.

Roger

[Gabriel]

So long as we keep eating tasty cows, we should still have tallow. Why not? The only reason most of the stinking bovines are alive is because we enjoy them as meals.

[hamelfarm1]

Palmolive soaps (bar hand soaps and shave sticks) are still tallow based.

[Sullybob]

Aren't AOS soaps still tallow based?
I sure hope so since I just picked up some Sandalwood.

[sachin]

But "WF" is lanolin... nothing to do with the tallow base...


I think a lot of people still consider it a tallow based soap so I was throwing it out there.

I always thought that MWF had tallow in it along with the lanolin (two separate ingredients).

Here is the list of ingredients in MWF:

Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua, Potassium Cocoate, Glycerin, Parfum, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Hexyl Cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool, Hydroxycitronellal, Lanolin, Titanium Dioxide, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Gluconate, Sodium Silicate, Tetrasoidum EDTA, Magnesium Sulphate, Tetrasodium Etidronate

[MAK]

:laugh::lol:

wont there always be the artisans? it's the triple milled tallow based that looks like it's going extinct

Agree with this

[Zen Master Kool-Aid]

The veggie-Nazi seagull-scrubbers run amok. You're gonna be Vegan and you're gonna like it.

-- John Gehman

Can that really be the case?
I really thought tallow was a by-product of things already produced like meat and leather... I've never heard of a farmer who was raising his cattle for tallow. :sosp:

[Bird-Man]

Is old Burma shave soap tallow based and if so, is it worth buying?

How about Colgate soap?

[soapbox]

Is old Burma shave soap tallow based and if so, is it worth buying?

Originally Burma Shave was brushless cream; the soap cakes of Burma Shave is a promotional run and little else. I don't know if the 1950s Burma Shave was really good or not, but they didn't make hard soap cakes. My guess is it isn't worth buying compared to a nice cake of Tabac or something.

[BroJohn]

DING DING DING !!!

And John brings on the end of this thread's useful life by invoking Nazis.

:lol1:

-- John Gehman

[SepticTank]

I always thought that MWF had tallow in it along with the lanolin (two separate ingredients).

Here is the list of ingredients in MWF:

Sodium Tallowate, Potassium Stearate, Sodium Cocoate, Sodium Stearate, Aqua, Potassium Cocoate, Glycerin, Parfum, Alpha-Isomethyl Ionone, Hexyl Cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool, Hydroxycitronellal, Lanolin, Titanium Dioxide, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Gluconate, Sodium Silicate, Tetrasoidum EDTA, Magnesium Sulphate, Tetrasodium Etidronate

The point being that the lanolin is not there as a consequence of the tallow... in the original post, it implied to me that the poster thought the two were some way linked.

[thebikingengineer]

I sure hope it sticks around. Just this morning I experienced Tabac for the first time, I have to say, definitely a big difference. Greenies be damned, I love the stuff!

[bman40]

Is there anything we - as the wetshaving community, along with the shaeden and shavemyface - can do - i.e. petitions etc. ?

If the end-users want tallow, and the tallow is a by-product of the meat industry, why are the manufacturers changing the make-up of these products? If animals are not being slaughtered directly for tallow, there must be some other reason why these products are being re-formulated?

We have hundreds of members here - surely a petition / letter campaign might have some impact?

[Sullybob]

I sure hope it sticks around. Just this morning I experienced Tabac for the first time, I have to say, definitely a big difference. Greenies be damned, I love the stuff!


Me too. I used my AOS Sandalwood soap for the first time this morning and what a difference from my C&E soap, it was like night and day.

[bman40]

I just did a little on-line searching, and I think the fate of tallow soaps is largely a fait accompli - it seems to be a largely economic decision - the price of tallow is too high now, and the mad cow issues and transport of animal products seem to have had an impact as well.

so, it seems that the answer is to stock up on what you like now.

[uberlegit]

so, it seems that the answer is to stock up on what you like now.

It'll come back around. Prices aren't fixed, and once the enviro-freaks see the [real, high] consequences of using vegetable oil exclusively they'll look for an alternative -- say, for instance, the byproduct of slaughtering already taking place...

[EL Alamein]

Last I checked tallow and palm oil are about par right now in price. A few months back palm oil and tallow were through the roof. Tallow is not being abandoned because of it's price because many of the shaving soap producers switched over to palm oil when it was more expensive than tallow. The prices of palm and tallow have been driven largely by political concerns in the last few years.

There is an element in our society, indeed in the world, that finds it highly objectionable if any animal products/byproducts are used in anything. This group is very active and very vocal politically. Many persons of wealth and esteem seem to have jumped on the bandwagon lately as it's become the cause du jour to be "cruelty free" and demand that all products are free from animal byproducts and not be tested on animals. Since many if not most of the patrons of the upper crust purveyors of toiletries are wealthy and influential these firms are bowing to their new demands and changing their products to "cruelty free" versions and in the process discarding age old practices.

The ultimate goal of the cruelty free crowd is to drive animal byproducts from almost everything they can then turn their sights on the meat industry itself and declare it a hugely wasteful operation because all of it's byproducts (by that time) are not used and wasted. This in turn will drive up the price of meat because they can't sell all the leftovers which helps to offset the price of meat in general. Then will come calls for heavy taxation (they are already calling for high taxation) to make them pay for the waste and it's hidden costs to the environment etc. The real goal is to drive the meat industry out of business simply because they (the cruelty free crowd) think that it's immoral to eat animals. They believe that animals are morally on par with man and in this sense the reasoning takes on more of a religiosity.

One of the places I would think would be the last to give up tallow is Italy simply because they are predominantly Catholic. Catholicism (and Christianity in general) does not have a problem with using animals for food or other things such as soap. Western Civilization as a whole has never had a problem with that notion either until recently.

Now some of the newer veggie based shaving soaps are quite good but that tallow stuff has always been regarded as better by a lot, if not most people and soap makers. I've read tallow makes smaller bubbles and therefore can produce a richer, more protective and skin friendly lather.

I am not sure any action from us though will produce any results. Even if we refused to buy any such products I don't think the business model will change simply because it's based on catering to the wealthy and influential. It's their money that the producers want to earn and it will always be their money they want because that's the nature of the product. I think they are indeed planning on wetshaving being a fad from which all excess revenues will eventually dissipate when the fad is over. And when it's over their normal clientele will still be there. You can debate the fad part but I believe that the firms think it's not going to last therefore any changes demanded by the expanded user base (as opposed to the usual user base) will not likely be accommodated. I certainly hope I am wrong on that though.

What would seem to me to be a good way to effect a change is to put different people in power with sympathetic attitudes. Evangelize the influential in society in order to change their attitudes.

Or we can just sit back and take it.

Chris

[smalltownlegend]

28 billion lbs of beef were consumed in the US in 2006, so I figure using tallow based soap, cooking with lard, wearing leather. These are just like buying recycled products.


To bad the cruelty free crowd can't see it that way.

[BroJohn]

Look, all you have to do to gain their approval is live your life the way they want you to.

These veggie zeleots are insufferable. They probably don't even shave.

-- John Gehman

[iron maiden]

Look, all you have to do to gain their approval is live your life the way they want you to.

These veggie zeleots are insufferable. They probably don't even shave.

-- John Gehman

....or bathe regularly, from what I remember.:001_huh:

I'll never understand them...and nor do I want to. One advantage of having opposable thumbs and large brains is that we can make wonderful things with our hands.

The disadvantage is that there are certain members of our species who feel a bit more enlightened seem to want to force their views upon the rest of us.

[thoughtcriminal]

So much animosity on this subject. Though I can't say its entirely unjust.
I'm for a mutual respect amongst both sides. I try to keep my life as low kill as possible, but I feel it is wrong to expect others to conform to my point of view. And I think it is commendable for someone who eats a lot of meat to use leather and tallow. Leave nothing to waste.
While I prefer non tallow soaps, I am disappointed that the option of using them seems to be dying out. I would think there would be a pretty strong core market of "Nostalgics", which would at least justify having a few old fashioned style products in a companies lineup.
If nothing else, I think there will always be small scale artisans willing to produce such products as long as there is a market

[samrawet]

linkhood

[whiskerlips]

The point being that the lanolin is not there as a consequence of the tallow... in the original post, it implied to me that the poster thought the two were some way linked.

That and on the package of MWF bath soap and on the ceramic shaving soap box it states "No animal suffers in the production of this bio-degradable product"

[smalltownlegend]

So long as there are meat eating humans, there will be butchers like myself. So long as there are butchers like myself, rendering plants will do booming business. So long as there are rendering plants, there shall be tallow produced.

As for the argument about "no animal suffers" or how cruelty free soaps can have tallow.

It comes down to this. Tallow is a by-product, the cow is killed as a food source, the stripped carcass is sent to a rendering plant. Where the now carcass (no longer living so you cant hurt it anymore) is turned into a variety of by-products. There is the loop-hole.

[soapbox]

That and on the package of MWF bath soap and on the ceramic shaving soap box it states "No animal suffers in the production of this bio-degradable product"

Notice it doesn't say "no animal products or derivatives are used in the production of this product."

[soapbox]

I just did a little on-line searching, and I think the fate of tallow soaps is largely a fait accompli - it seems to be a largely economic decision - the price of tallow is too high now, and the mad cow issues and transport of animal products seem to have had an impact as well.

so, it seems that the answer is to stock up on what you like now.

The olive oil we (and by "we", I mean "Mom and Dad") at Green Mountain Soap Co. use dwarfs the price of tallow or coconut oil (the other two products in our tallow bath soap).

Also, for what it's worth, palm oil is chemically nearly identical to tallow, so you can get very, very similar results using palm oil in the soap instead of tallow. That's how we do our all-vegetable soaps to ensure that the all-veg is as similar as possible to "original recipe".

[rkowalick]

Last I checked [...] Or we can just sit back and take it.

Citation Needed.

[kreigle]

Unfortunately, palm oil isn't without ecological impacts of its own:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1839720.cms

http://ecosystem-preservation.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_downside_of_palm_oil

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/reports/greasy_palms_summary.pdf

[blade08]

Cella Crema Da Barba is also tallow based.