How do they harvest badger bristles?

[brothers]

So what's up with synthetic brush bristles? Maybe I could go look it up, but does anybody know the common procedure for people seeking to make shaving brushes to get hair from badgers? Or boars? Is somebody somewhere doing something despicable to these critters?

[MAK]

Other posting have suggested that badger hair is a byproduct of harvesting badgers for their meat (in China).

[Rollsshaver]

So what's up with synthetic brush bristles? Maybe I could go look it up, but does anybody know the common procedure for people seeking to make shaving brushes to get hair from badgers? Or boars? Is somebody somewhere doing something despicable to these critters?


Badger burgers = Badger brushes...............:wink:


BTW, I'll have mine with cheese, please.

[wchnu]

yep can't just shave them.. they get to be deaded,

Fuzzy

[jazzman]

The hairs are obtained through polite requests, sometimes in exchange for high-quality badger food or chocolate.

[mdunn]

badger is food in parts of china. the hair is taken when they are killed for food.

[tnewswander]

I have two synthetic brushes (a Men-U premier, $56 online - apparently soft like badger, but probably not as luxurious - I've never used badger - but much softer than boar, and really quite soft) and an Omega Syntex (#90077, $10 on ebay, my travel brush - softer than boar but not nearly as soft as the Men-U premier) and the advantages of them I see are these: No initial animal hair smell, less to non-existent bristle loss (the better syntex brushes are claiming this - and I've yet to lose a bristle), easier to clean since the bristles don't absorb soap/cream, fast drying, use about 50% less cream/soap since bristles don't absorb soap/cream, quick to develop lather (since the bristles are usually stiffer), plus an animal is not hurt (I'm not a vegetarian and only a moderate environmentalist but why hurt something if it's not needed) - i.e. a very low maintenance, quick, efficient, long-lasting brush. The disadvantages are these: probably won't get softer with age like boar/badger, great for bowl & hand lathering but painful for face lathering (I do only mild face exfoliation with them), best for painting side-to-side or up-down motions, harder to use circular brush motions, not fancy luxurious brushes (plastic bristles & plastic handles), probably doesn't hold heat like a badger brush, and the white bristles of the Omega syntex are hard to see white soap against when you're initially putting it on your brush. So in summary, I like synthetic brushes, but it all depends what you want. I'm giving Omega syntex's to people as starter & travel brushes.

[RexHavoc]

This is an honest question, not meant to be a troll, but is there anything they DON'T eat in China?

[JimR]

This is an honest question, not meant to be a troll, but is there anything they DON'T eat in China?
I desperately try to be as open minded as I can about other cultures. I try not to make any unfounded generalizations, as I am the target of them quite often living in Japan...

But after seeing pictures of Shanghai food markets, I am tempted to say No, there isn't.

[joscobo]

From what small amount of info I can find out online I think the idea that every Badger is killed first for their meat and second for their fur is not entirely accurate.
EDIT for content>JFR
I can't find any source that is definitive on the topic.
There are many on here who care about animal cruelty and many who think it's silly or misguided.
The argument usually goes something like we should care more for the Chinese people than the Badgers they are killing.
I don't know what's so wrong with caring about both, personally.
Given the fact I can't be assured how the animals are slaughtered for their skins, I myself, won't purchase another one. I was stupid enough to think of Badgers being shaved much like Sheep are sheared.

[Jim]

The Video mentioned above was NOT badgers. We have been down this road before more than once and it did not end well on many levels. I am calling on each of the members who post in this thread to do so with respect to others opinions and use the golden rule. Thank you.

[Siv]

From joeswoodstuff.com:

The badger hair is imported from China where small village co-ops farm the animals and harvest the hair just before summer so that it can grow back before winter time (the badgers are not harmed). (http://www.joeswoodstuff.com/shavingbrushes.htm)

Not shave brushes but a similar story:

Italian Badger Makeup Brushes. Select Italian badger hair is delicately shaved from badgers to make cruelty free makeup brushes. At no time are the animals harmed to harvest the hair. They are fed a high omego 6 diet for producing the healthiest Italian Badger hair. (http://www.raesinimages.com/italianbadgerbrushes.htm)

[mdunn]

if people are concerned about the possibility of cruelty in getting the badger hair, you could consider getting brushed made by companies holding a royal warrant (ie t&h) as the process of getting (and keeping) one means they have to meet all kind of extra standards other brushmakers do not (eg, i think they cant test on animals) and so they have to be paticularly careful about where they source materials from to ensure there is no cruelty.

[TorzJohnson]

From joeswoodstuff.com:

The badger hair is imported from China where small village co-ops farm the animals and harvest the hair just before summer so that it can grow back before winter time (the badgers are not harmed).

Not shave brushes but a similar story:

Italian Badger Makeup Brushes. Select Italian badger hair is delicately shaved from badgers to make cruelty free makeup brushes. At no time are the animals harmed to harvest the hair. They are fed a high omego 6 diet for producing the healthiest Italian Badger hair.

Siv, I hate to be the one to break it to you... but that is just a fairy tale to limit their sales losses to animal lovers. The high Omega 6 diet part is a nice touch, playing to the health and nutrition-conscious shoppers. If they knew all of their customers liked Kenny G, they would have put in a line or two about how they play soothing Kenny G music to calm the badgers.

There are no Italian badger farms, the Chinese regularly trap badgers and use them for food. The badger hair is a byproduct of this. There is no budget for tranquilizing a vicious animal to shave it and then let the best part of it (the rest of it) walk away.

[Siv]

Siv, I hate to be the one to break it to you...
Jim, thanks for the clarification - I guess the hippy in me likes the idea of a badger lathering up and having a nice shave. Anyway, I only buy synthetic...

[drandall]

it starts with a huge vat of NAIR.....

[Cheech]

Being a good sheeple, I was unaware of what a royal warrant was so I did what any good drone would do: Wikipedia!

It looks like a royal warrant essentially allows the holder to advertise that he/she/it supplies a service to the royal family (in general, not specific terms).

According to the Royal Warrant Holder's Association, "Does having a Royal Warrant mean that the products or services supplied are the best?

No – it only means they are the preferred product or service."

I couldn't find any restrictions on warrant holders, other than they provide a product preferred by the royal family.

This suggests that there is no requirement to procure materials that meet a given standard. Of course, it looks like the royal warrant for cigarettes was revoked in keeping with public policy, so who knows?

I admit, I fall into the "I have no problem with using the fur if they are killed humanely for their meat" portion of the crowd. But, I also agree that any animal deserves a humane death.

Still thinking about this one...

(PS: Not to counter anything said here, just trying to add to the conversation. Good decisions are made with good information)

[maniv85]

I'm pretty sure anytime you get to find out how all the cool stuff you love is made it kind of dampens the enthusiasm. I remember when I was a kid I went on a field trip to MSU's dairy store where they made all their cheeses. The only thing I brought back was cheese is gross. It took me a couple weeks before I could even stomach the stuff. Not sure what that says about my childhood disposition.

[prewt]

I will hold on to my belief that the hair is harvested by migrant farm workers and the badgers were lied into donating the hair for balding cousins in far away countries.

[SepticTank]

if people are concerned about the possibility of cruelty in getting the badger hair, you could consider getting brushed made by companies holding a royal warrant (ie t&h) as the process of getting (and keeping) one means they have to meet all kind of extra standards other brushmakers do not (eg, i think they cant test on animals) and so they have to be paticularly careful about where they source materials from to ensure there is no cruelty.

I noticed today that G.B.Kent of shaving brushes fame has a RW from HM the Queen for shaving brushes :eek: Thank the appropriate deity I know that it doesn't mean she uses the product personally :biggrin:

[SepticTank]

This is an honest question, not meant to be a troll, but is there anything they DON'T eat in China?

Nope, like France the rules are simple:

1. If it moves, eat it.
2. If it doesn't move, try eating it.

[cvac]

The royal warrant thing means they will eventually have to comply with EU cosmetic regs. Since I've not looked at the regs, I have no idea if they have any provisions that apply to badger hair or brushes of any kind.

Forum members have posted this info about the EU reg business from a couple of companies who make shaving soap, I think. But since they have some time to comply (not sure how long) what you buy right now may not comply with the regs just yet and still be made from a pre-reg formula.

[Crag]

Back to the OP of HOW they gather badger hair for brushes...Sadly most, 95% or more, is gathered post-mortem, but there ARE those that actually use a slightly different species of badger and shear them. The hair is fine all around the honey badger, but is stiffest, and whitest on the back, and BLACK on the belly. The hair is not as fine, but they often use sand paper to "soften" the tips to make them appear softer, and some makers sell this hair as "premium".

[SepticTank]

The royal warrant thing means they will eventually have to comply with EU cosmetic regs.

Interestingly the EU regulations do allow tallow and tallow derivatives to appear - they specify that they have to be traceable and of food grade though.

See here (http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredient_more_details.php?ingredient_id=1564) where it mentions:


When used in cosmetics and personal care products in Europe, Sodium Tallowate, Magensium Tallowate and Potassium Tallowate must conform to European Union animal by-products legislation, and the general provisions of the Cosmetics Directive of the European Union.

As for the royal warrant enforcing high environmental standards, that will be down to the granter's instruction and nothing else (so the Queen may have one instruction on any given policy area, Phil the Greek another & the Prince of Wales another). Not sure how much store people put by these things anyway - I mean "Brasso" (99p a can) carries a Royal Warrant - other metal polishes are available that do the same (or a better) job that don't carry the warrant. I bet there are plenty of buses at Stagecoach Aberdeen (http://www.royalwarrant.org/directory/companies/bluebird-buses-t-a-stagecoach-bluebird.html) that belch out masses of unnecessary pollution (than if they met the highest environmental standards)...

[ogopogo]

Nope, like France the rules are simple:

1. If it moves, eat it.
2. If it doesn't move, try eating it.

yes, but they put such wonderful sauces on it

[TorzJohnson]

Back to the OP of HOW they gather badger hair for brushes...Sadly most, 95% or more, is gathered post-mortem, but there ARE those that actually use a slightly different species of badger and shear them. The hair is fine all around the honey badger, but is stiffest, and whitest on the back, and BLACK on the belly. The hair is not as fine, but they often use sand paper to "soften" the tips to make them appear softer, and some makers sell this hair as "premium".
I'm interested to know who is shearing honey badgers, aka Ratels... aka the most ornery and cantankerous member of the class Mammalia. Even Chuck Norris checks his closet and under his bed for Ratels before he goes to sleep.

[Cheech]

"Brasso" (99p a can) carries a Royal Warrant

Really? That would explain how that stuff is ubiquitous in the military and police.

"Traditiiiiiiioooon! Tradition!" - Tevye

[S.P.Britton]

Well, I think in this area, ignorance can be bliss. I don't know how the makers go about getting the hair, but it's done. So I think I'll just have to buy one that suits my needs. Hope this doesn't seem too harsh.

[bones59]

From wikipedia, hi-light is mine.

"Because badgers are a protected species in North America and most of Europe, virtually all commercial badger hair comes from mainland China, which supplies knots of hair in three grades to brush makers in both China and Europe. In rural Northern China, badgers multiply to the point of becoming a crop nuisance, and village cooperatives are licensed by the national government to hunt badgers and sell the hair to processors. [1]

Boar bristles are available cheaply from many sources. Brushes made in China or India with boar bristle are supplied wholesale for less than $1 each, while even the cheapest wholesale Badger brush costs at least $10; even the cost difference between badger brushes with resin handles vs. expensive horn handles shows that, except with exotic materials such as sterling silver, badger hair is the costliest element of a brush.[2] And while it is common for boar-hair brushes to have part of the bristles dyed to resemble badger hair, at least one Chinese company has begun offering a badger-hair substitute made from small horse hair. [3] Brushes with nylon-only bristles are made in India.[4]"

[dixee6]

This is an honest question, not meant to be a troll, but is there anything they DON'T eat in China?

I don't get it. How are you being a troll? You belong here!:001_smile

[Crag]

I'm interested to know who is shearing honey badgers, aka Ratels... aka the most ornery and cantankerous member of the class Mammalia. Even Chuck Norris checks his closet and under his bed for Ratels before he goes to sleep.

It's not hard at all if it's a hand-reared RATEL. Sorta like shearing a sheep really. Even hand-reared wolves toenails can be trimmed. I know, I've done it. :tongue:

[mdunn]

According to the Royal Warrant Holder's Association, "Does having a Royal Warrant mean that the products or services supplied are the best?

No – it only means they are the preferred product or service."

I couldn't find any restrictions on warrant holders, other than they provide a product preferred by the royal family.

This suggests that there is no requirement to procure materials that meet a given standard. Of course, it looks like the royal warrant for cigarettes was revoked in keeping with public policy, so who knows?

I tried to find where I read the bit about t&h brush sources, but cant.

I dont think its a hard and fast regulation, but like the smokes, to keep with public policy of being nice to animals, they had to show that they have the hair sourced from a nice place. (ie, phill the greek doesnt want to be associated with cruelty to animals. well, he probably doesnt care, but the PR people at the palace do :biggrin:)

[profsaffel]

If you live anywhere near Distraction, TX, you'll find that we've shot, skinned, and ate just about anything that moves. There ain't no stinkin' PETA clubs 'round here. No badger's though. Otherwise Distraction would be the shaving brush capital of the world! :biggrin:

Have a nice day.

[SepticTank]

Really? That would explain how that stuff is ubiquitous in the military and police.

"Traditiiiiiiioooon! Tradition!" - Tevye

Not really - I looked closer at the warrant on Brasso and it's for "Household and Cleaning Products" so it might be that Reckitt's supply some other cleaning product to the Queen's household...

It's popular (here) because it's the market leader - it does not follow that they're the market leader because they have a warrant. (Compare Aston Martin - nice cars, but not the market leader)

[hamelfarm1]

The Royal Warrant doesn't really mean anything these days and hasn't done for around 30 years - many companies who hold royal warrants have held them for years. There is no system for "re-testing", so a product could have been reformulated several times and bear no resemblance to the thing that was awarded it originally, nor does it mean that the royal house use or prefer said product today either.

There will be some rules, regs and standards that the product and the company who produce it have to follow by law, but that's about it. After that, a royal warrant should not be used to guage the quality or royal preference for the product. After all, Coca Cola have a royal warrant.

[SepticTank]

They have to have supplied for a continuous period of 5 years in the last 7 or the warrant lapses - this I know from former employment where the registered office moved and there was big hoohar about retaining the warrant (and lots of proofs of delivery required by Buck House before they'd allow it to be retained).



A firm should have made a continuing supply of goods and services ordered and paid for by the Households of The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh or The Prince of Wales over a minimum trading period of five years within the last seven, which should include trade within twelve months prior to the date of application.



After all, Coca Cola have a royal warrant.

Schweppes Tonic Water - to go with the other holder... Tanqueray Gordon and Co

[DeaconKC]

All I know is I will pay to watch someone shear a badger! And it will be from behind armor and bullet-proof glass!:eek:

[TorzJohnson]

It's not hard at all if it's a hand-reared RATEL. Sorta like shearing a sheep really. Even hand-reared wolves toenails can be trimmed. I know, I've done it. :tongue:
I imagine a honey badger could be hand-reared like those lions and tigers and trained bears you see in circuses. Generally those are attractions because it is so very rare to see a tame dangerous animal like that. A lot of hard work goes into keeping those animals from killing their trainers, and still, they do it all the time. So you'll forgive me for being a little skeptical of the idea of a farm full of tame badgers that you can shear. They sure don't shear minks and foxes to get their fur.

[Crag]

I imagine a honey badger could be hand-reared like those lions and tigers and trained bears you see in circuses. Generally those are attractions because it is so very rare to see a tame dangerous animal like that. A lot of hard work goes into keeping those animals from killing their trainers, and still, they do it all the time. So you'll forgive me for being a little skeptical of the idea of a farm full of tame badgers that you can shear. They sure don't shear minks and foxes to get their fur.

lol I never said there were farms full of hand-reared ratels being shaved, but the Chinese Badger is not the same as a Ratel, or any badger most of us are familiar with, for that matter...It is really the same as a ferret, and THEY love to be petted and cuddled, hence so many people keeping them as pets...They do bite like hell tho...Some People here in the States even keep the Chinese Badger as a pet...They are not Josie Wales idea of what a Badger is..."Here stick yer hand down there an git the can o money out!"...As the badger sharpens his teeth... The Outlaw Josie Wales is a Great Movie! :lol:

[SRock]

I'm interested to know who is shearing honey badgers, aka Ratels... aka the most ornery and cantankerous member of the class Mammalia. Even Chuck Norris checks his closet and under his bed for Ratels before he goes to sleep.

Pure blasphemy! Chuck Norris isn't scared of anything! :lol::lol:

Hell, Chuck Norris's beard could kick a badgers @$$! :lol::lol:

[douglask]

From: http://www.menessentials.com/oxid.php/sid/x/shp/oxbaseshop/cl/info/tpl/shave_brush.tpl


Most commercial badger hair comes from remote areas of China where badger populations are so vast that they endanger crops and livestock. The Chinese government controls badger culling by licensing tiny village cooperatives to conduct the hunts and process the hair. The sale of badger hair provides co-op members with an additional source of income to augment their meager earnings from the land.

Hope this helps out.

[Crag]

From: http://www.menessentials.com/oxid.php/sid/x/shp/oxbaseshop/cl/info/tpl/shave_brush.tpl


Most commercial badger hair comes from remote areas of China where badger populations are so vast that they endanger crops and livestock. The Chinese government controls badger culling by licensing tiny village cooperatives to conduct the hunts and process the hair. The sale of badger hair provides co-op members with an additional source of income to augment their meager earnings from the land.

Hope this helps out.

Yeah....They procreate like MICE, but are bigger than a Norwegian Rat, so imagine the devastation...I bet you Aussies know what a Mouse Explosion is like...so there is no fear of extinction for these guys.

[Jasonian]

Yeah....They procreate like MICE, but are bigger than a Norwegian Rat, so imagine the devastation...I bet you Aussies know what a Mouse Explosion is like...so there is no fear of extinction for these guys.

I think they call 'em Kangaroos down there. :001_huh:

[TorzJohnson]

lol I never said there were farms full of hand-reared ratels being shaved, but the Chinese Badger is not the same as a Ratel, or any badger most of us are familiar with, for that matter...It is really the same as a ferret, and THEY love to be petted and cuddled, hence so many people keeping them as pets...They do bite like hell tho...Some People here in the States even keep the Chinese Badger as a pet...They are not Josie Wales idea of what a Badger is..."Here stick yer hand down there an git the can o money out!"...As the badger sharpens his teeth... The Outlaw Josie Wales is a Great Movie! :lol:
I'm sorry, when you were talking about the "honey badger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honey_Badger)" I thought you were aware that it is another name for the Ratel.

[SepticTank]

I think they call 'em Kangaroos down there. :001_huh:

He means this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH4EFgRB4bU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkTBPk1kunA- there's an ongoing mouse "plague" in parts of Australia....

[big1096]

Since no one else has said it......



VERY carefully!

:biggrin:


Now I feel better...

[Fnord5]

If you feel bad for the badgers, just remember, this is what they look like when they are happy:
http://lauriekendrick.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/badger2.jpg

[Tux]

From: http://www.menessentials.com/oxid.php/sid/x/shp/oxbaseshop/cl/info/tpl/shave_brush.tpl


Most commercial badger hair comes from remote areas of China where badger populations are so vast that they endanger crops and livestock. The Chinese government controls badger culling by licensing tiny village cooperatives to conduct the hunts and process the hair. The sale of badger hair provides co-op members with an additional source of income to augment their meager earnings from the land.

Hope this helps out.

Not to pick any bones here, but just remember: What's the most overpopulated species in the world? Humans. I don't see anybody here advocating genocide.

By the way, I'm not necessarily denouncing killing overpopulated animals, just pointing out that rationally, it's not fair to consider other creatures expendable, while feeling like it is our god-given right to use up every last resource on the planet. Sometimes I think it's a good thing that scientists don't think we will ever get out of the solar system. In all honesty we're a species that reproduces exponentially and wreaks havoc to the populations and environments of everywhere that we go.

That was my rant for the day :biggrin:

[Jarmo P]

The badgers that our brushes are made from are quite symphatetic cute creatures. This video shows them:
http://www.mahalo.com/Badgers

They are not fierce african honey badgers or american carnivorous badgers. It always surprises me people posting that aggressive picture above as if they need to keep that false image in their mind to be able to accept the killing of them for brushes. To me it is quite acceptable to hunt badgers for our brushes, even though they are cute creatures.

They belong to the weasel family among with otters and many others.
In my country, Finland, they are called in an other name translated "woodpig". It comes from them being omnivorous and their diet being mostly worms that they dig out pig like.

They are peaceful creatures but shaving them without killing is surely impossible and also these animals don't survive farming. They need to live in the wild.

Jarmo

[hamelfarm1]

They have to have supplied for a continuous period of 5 years in the last 7 or the warrant lapses - this I know from former employment where the registered office moved and there was big hoohar about retaining the warrant (and lots of proofs of delivery required by Buck House before they'd allow it to be retained).

Schweppes Tonic Water - to go with the other holder... Tanqueray Gordon and Co

Yes, but it only covers supply to the household - that just means anyone in the family's employ, or any part of the family "business" (for want of a better word) who gets or uses that product means that the warrant sticks. It doesn't mean that the royal family themselves use or prefer that product over anything else, like it did 30 odd years ago. As an example, Heinz tomato ketchup has been supplied to the household for years, but none of the immediate royals actually use it according to those in the know. Apparently they tend to use the Royal Duchy ketchup which is, of course, Charlie's own brand.

[TorzJohnson]

Not to pick any bones here, but just remember: What's the most overpopulated species in the world? Humans. I don't see anybody here advocating genocide.

By the way, I'm not necessarily denouncing killing overpopulated animals, just pointing out that rationally, it's not fair to consider other creatures expendable, while feeling like it is our god-given right to use up every last resource on the planet. Sometimes I think it's a good thing that scientists don't think we will ever get out of the solar system. In all honesty we're a species that reproduces exponentially and wreaks havoc to the populations and environments of everywhere that we go.

That was my rant for the day :biggrin:
Wait a minute, we're messing up the planet? Do the politicians and the media know about this yet?

[Crag]

"also these animals don't survive farming. They need to live in the wild."

Jarmo

Wrong. They feed them Dog Food, and supplement with Meal Worms and wingless fruit flies. Being omnivorous they flourish in captivity. Maybe the woodpigs in Finland need the wild, but the Ferret Badgers of China do not.

[Jarmo P]

Our brushes are made from ferret badger hair?
I thought they were mainly made from meles meles, but I stand corrected if you know better.

Here the http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Neovison_vison
are farmed in captivity for their pelt mainly for furs to russian and asian people who favor to wear such things. Here it is quite unpopular to wear furs of any kind.

I have never heard meles meles being raised in captivity and doubt if that would be easy since they are burrowing animals.

[Crag]

Our brushes are made from ferret badger hair?
I thought they were mainly made from meles meles, but I stand corrected if you know better.

Here the http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Neovison_vison
are farmed in captivity for their pelt mainly for furs to russian and asian people who favor to wear such things. Here it is quite unpopular to wear furs of any kind.

I have never heard meles meles being raised in captivity and doubt if that would be easy since they are burrowing animals.

Well, It's nice that you used Wikipedia, but you chose the wrong badger. Meles Meles is the European Badger and is a native species to Europe, not China, thus NOT where most of the Badger Hair Bristles come from. Please check again, and do a little more homework in trying to disprove my theorem. Maybe if you actually used the words CHINESE FERRET BADGER in your search you would do much better.

Oh, and FYI, just because an animal is nocturnal and dwells in a crevice does not mean they cannot be hand reared. Just look at Rats....

[gister]

Meles Meles is the European Badger and is a native species to Europe, not China
That is wrong, Meles Meles Leucurus lives in most parts of China.
European Badger is also called Eurasian Badger.FYI

[Crag]

That is wrong, Meles Meles Leucurus lives in most parts of China.
European Badger is also called Eurasian Badger.FYI

Yes, but it is not the badger that we use for badger brushes. That is Melogale moschata and not really a badger at all. Thanks for your input, but I really do know this for a fact. I lived in China for 8 years amongst fur farmers, and my father has a vested interest in the Chinese fur trade.

Ahhh...The Fins are ganging up on me...lol

[Rollsshaver]

Mmmmmm...........Badger Burgers!!

[Confilo]

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Melogale_moschata
Click link for harvested badger

[gister]

Yes, but it is not the badger that we use for badger brushes. That is Melogale moschata and not really a badger at all. Thanks for your input, but I really do know this for a fact. I lived in China for 8 years amongst fur farmers, and my father has a vested interest in the Chinese fur trade.

Ahhh...The Fins are ganging up on me...lol

according to this http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V5X-4H5MYS1-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=3e8a2c7c3eb16629a8ef32af406b1427
brushes are made of Eurasian badgers or hog badgers.
Maybe somebody knows better than us...:lol:

[TorzJohnson]

I'm still confused.

Meles Meles seems to have plenty of long hair to make brushes with:

http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=15099

While Melogale Moschata seems to have awfully short hair for that purpose.

http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=15100

:confused:

[Crag]

I'm still confused.

Meles Meles seems to have plenty of long hair to make brushes with:

http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=15099

While Melogale Moschata seems to have awfully short hair for that purpose.

http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=15100

:confused:

Nice Pics! I'd like a brush made from the top one please...it looks "nicer", but I know that of the brushes currently in mass production around 98% comes from the second picture with other "graded" hair mixed in...I bet Bernd knows...we should shoot him an email, and see what he says. I do know of one Plisson Custom that used Ratel hair, and was exceedingly white with Pure Black shafts...quite stunning, really...but at $2650 would be about $2000 out of my price range.

BTW...The poke at the Fins was in pure fun, but read later sounded like an insult so I would like to openly apologize. Sorry guys.

So those DNA guys actually tested hair from a Brush, eh? I wonder where the brush originated, what make it was, and what the brush looked & felt like. It would be interesting to know what species of Badger my Shavemac 23mm Grade 1 brush is made from...We need more of those in the world!:lol:

[gister]

BTW...The poke at the Fins was in pure fun, but read later sounded like an insult so I would like to openly apologize. Sorry guys.
There were no need for that, but you have been forgiven.
That (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V5X-4H5MYS1-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=3e8a2c7c3eb16629a8ef32af406b1427) article also says it is illegal in Netherlands possess brushes that are made of Eurasian badgers.
I wonder if drP knows that, maybe he will send his brushes to my vault. :001_rolle

[TorzJohnson]

Nice Pics! I'd like a brush made from the top one please...it looks "nicer", but I know that of the brushes currently in mass production around 98% comes from the second picture with other "graded" hair mixed in...
It's weird, I have 5 brushes, and none of the hair looks remotely like the ferret badger's hair.

[Jim]

I am delighted this thread has remained on topic and umm ...peaceful.

I would add that most small mammals have a summer and a winter coat.
Badgers are no exception and its the winter coat that is the most suitable for our hobby.

[whodat]

I desperately try to be as open minded as I can about other cultures. I try not to make any unfounded generalizations, as I am the target of them quite often living in Japan...

But after seeing pictures of Shanghai food markets, I am tempted to say No, there isn't.

If you're in Japan, you really should hop over to Shanghai to check out the markets yourself. They're awesome. My most vivid recollection of a wet market (open air market where animals are butchered upon request and meat and other stuff is sold) was standing next to a dead goat and looking across the street into a Starbuck's... :blush:

[Crag]

If you're in Japan, you really should hop over to Shanghai to check out the markets yourself. They're awesome. My most vivid recollection of a wet market (open air market where animals are butchered upon request and meat and other stuff is sold) was standing next to a dead goat and looking across the street into a Starbuck's... :blush:

LOL...That would be kinda freaky! I was young when we lived in China, but I remember that there were no markets with frozen food in our town...if you wanted Chicken you picked the one you wanted and then carried home the gutted, and sometimes, plucked bird...

God Bless Stater Bros Markets!

:thumbup:

[Cheech]

If you're in Japan, you really should hop over to Shanghai to check out the markets yourself. They're awesome. My most vivid recollection of a wet market (open air market where animals are butchered upon request and meat and other stuff is sold) was standing next to a dead goat and looking across the street into a Starbuck's... :blush:

Is there any place that doesn't have a Starbucks?

A couple years ago, I was in Dubai standing next to some Bin Laden Group workers looking across the street at a Starbucks.

I'm sure there was something poignant about it, but beats me exactly what.

[Gafer]

Is there any place that doesn't have a Starbucks?

Brownwood, Texas. The store closed this year.

[BillEllis]

From what small amount of info I can find out online I think the idea that every Badger is killed first for their meat and second for their fur is not entirely accurate.
EDIT for content>JFR
I can't find any source that is definitive on the topic.
There are many on here who care about animal cruelty and many who think it's silly or misguided.
The argument usually goes something like we should care more for the Chinese people than the Badgers they are killing.
I don't know what's so wrong with caring about both, personally.
Given the fact I can't be assured how the animals are slaughtered for their skins, I myself, won't purchase another one. I was stupid enough to think of Badgers being shaved much like Sheep are sheared.I can only admire someone who practices what he preaches and find myself respecting you for it. However, in order to validate your statement regarding your newly founded adversion to badger hair, I think you should promptly offer up whatever badger brushes you now have to the members of B&B at a reasonable price. It may save another badger's life. :biggrin:

[Digit01]

yep can't just shave them.. they get to be deaded,

Fuzzy

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:


That made me laugh! They gotta be deaded! lol

[HankG]

From what's been said in this thread, the hair seems to be purely a byproduct of the badgers killed for food and to save crops. With that in mind, not buying badger brushes wouldn't keep any badgers from dieing.

Thus, for animal cruelty, not buying badger brushes doesn't help anything since the badgers die anyways and the hair is collected postmortem. For environmentalism, not buying a badger brush just means the hair is getting thrown away and wasted and increases the demand for the components of the synthetic brushes and the processes required to make them.

While none of this really has any bearing on what brush I would buy, from where I'm standing there doesn't seem to be any logical backing for a moral objection.

[Siv]

I seriously doubt badger is the food of choice for these people. They probably eat the meat because it's a by product of the hair. AND, more pertinantly, I bet the get a hell of a lot more money for the pelt than the meat.

[Gafer]

From what's been said in this thread, the hair seems to be purely a byproduct of the badgers killed for food and to save crops. With that in mind, not buying badger brushes wouldn't keep any badgers from dieing.

Thus, for animal cruelty, not buying badger brushes doesn't help anything since the badgers die anyways and the hair is collected postmortem. For environmentalism, not buying a badger brush just means the hair is getting thrown away and wasted and increases the demand for the components of the synthetic brushes and the processes required to make them.

While none of this really has any bearing on what brush I would buy, from where I'm standing there doesn't seem to be any logical backing for a moral objection.

This is a point I've been pondering lately. How do you balance the use of a petroleum product (Synthetic brush) with an animal product (Badger brush)? Animal cruelty issues? Perhaps. Are they (badgers) a renewable resource? Perhaps. Is a synthetic brush made from a renewable resource? Aside from the wood handle, no. So, perhaps the most environmentally friendly, animal friendly, approach is to use your hands to make lather. Bleh! Or maybe the "Shave cloth" the Method Shaving guru, Charles Roberts his pushing these days. Bleh again! I'm going to continue to use badger brushes until I see sound evidence otherwise.

[Crag]

LOL...alot of good comments in the thread! For any of you staunch environmentalists you can send me both your Badger and Synthetic Brushes..You know what they say...Beggars can't be choosers!

Send them to...

:biggrin:

[Doublefelix]

Pure blasphemy! Chuck Norris isn't scared of anything! :lol::lol:

Hell, Chuck Norris's beard could kick a badgers @$$! :lol::lol:

Hahaha. Chuck Norris is so scared of badgers that he grew a beard. Any other way of shaving would be unmanly.

Or is it Chuck Norris has a beard because badgers are so scared of him, the hair in brushes falls out instead of touching his face. If Chuck Norris didn't want a beard, he could cut it off with a single swipe of his hand.

Anyway, even if it were possible to shave badgers, it still wouldnt be feasible. the pelts could be shaved and they are easier to handle.

I don't see the difference whether an animal is killed for meat or pelt if both are used. At least both are used. I feel the same about deer hunting. I dont do it, but if you go it shouldnt be for a trophy and not for meat. You better eat the meat.

I'm not saying anybody's opinion is wrong, just stating mine.

We might have to change the name of the site to synthetic and blade.

Darn it, I don't want to use canned goo.

[Confilo]

This is a point I've been pondering lately. How do you balance the use of a petroleum product (Synthetic brush) with an animal product (Badger brush)? Animal cruelty issues? Perhaps. Are they (badgers) a renewable resource? Perhaps. Is a synthetic brush made from a renewable resource? Aside from the wood handle, no. So, perhaps the most environmentally friendly, animal friendly, approach is to use your hands to make lather. Bleh! Or maybe the "Shave cloth" the Method Shaving guru, Charles Roberts his pushing these days. Bleh again! I'm going to continue to use badger brushes until I see sound evidence otherwise.

Badgers are a renewable source as long as there is a pair of Mr & Ms.badger :wink:

[HatMagnet]

Great thread. I always assumed the badgers were deceased before the hair was shaved. OR, That there was a REALLY tough son- ofa- gun somewhere that did the shaving. :eek:

[Gafer]

Badgers are a renewable source as long as there is a pair of Mr & Ms.badger :wink:

Yes, but to be a truly renewable resource I think we need more than two. Otherwise, the gene pool is pretty shallow.

[Zen Master Kool-Aid]

The destruction of badgers for the use of their hair in brushes was an ethical problem for me for a little while, but I got over it. I am a Buddhist and I value all life, so how can I get over something like this, you ask?
Well...

1. Badgers are a pest in mainland China and they destroy crops as well as creating problems and spreading disease amongst livestock. Their population is "controlled" by local communities under government mandate.

2. The unfortunate badgers that are dispatched by the farmers in these rural areas are eaten for food, and their pelts will either be used for clothing, shaving brushes, or they will be discarded and wasted.

3. Badgers are carniverous and as such they need to destroy life in order to perpetuate their own survival. It is natural, but badgers aren't exactly humane to their prey.

4. Badgers are free range animals. They are not kept in cages to be exploited.

It is a shame that these beings must die, but it isn't to make shaving brushes. Shaving brushes are a by-product of materials that would otherwise go to waste.

Thats how I justify it anyway, I guess.

[Gafer]

The destruction of badgers for the use of their hair in brushes was an ethical problem for me for a little while, but I got over it. I am a Buddhist and I value all life, so how can I get over something like this, you ask?
Well...

1. Badgers are a pest in mainland China and they destroy crops as well as creating problems and spreading disease amongst livestock. Their population is "controlled" by local communities under government mandate.

2. The unfortunate badgers that are dispatched by the farmers in these rural areas are eaten for food, and their pelts will either be used for clothing, shaving brushes, or they will be discarded and wasted.

3. Badgers are carniverous and as such they need to destroy life in order to perpetuate their own survival. It is natural, but badgers aren't exactly humane to their prey.

4. Badgers are free range animals. They are not kept in cages to be exploited.

It is a shame that these beings must die, but it isn't to make shaving brushes. Shaving brushes are a by-product of materials that would otherwise go to waste.

Thats how I justify it anyway, I guess.

Nice perspective Zen Master but is it similar to what might have been used to argue in favor of Buffalo Robes in the 1800's? I suppose as long as badgers aren't endangered I'm on board with making brushes from what's left of them. In that sense maybe they are like buffaloes - don't waste any part.

[Siv]

Deleted

[ogopogo]

Why would a carnivore (which the badger is) create destroy crops?
Unlike its American counterpart, the Eurasian badger is omnivorous. Not only do they feed on crops, they uproot them as well.


A reasonable assertion, but I for one am not convinced by this argument. I bet that they get more money for the pelt than the food is worth to them. The badgers are probably killed for the pelt and they make use of the meat as food so as not to waste (the meat is the by product), not the other way around.
With this I tend to agree.

Seriously, given the choice, wouldn't you rather have steak, lamb shank or pork belly rather than roast badger? The vast majority of civilized humans only eat herbivorous animals (cows, pigs, sheep) and not carnivorous animals (cats, dogs, badgers)...
Key words there being "given the choice". Rural China is very poor, so having fillet mignon my not be an option.
Besides, we are talking about China. They eat many things that we don't. Don't forget, in some Asian countries like Korea, dog is considered a delicacy.

[BillEllis]

I'm confused...

I thought this was supposed to be a thread on how the bristles of a badger were harvested and not to make any determinations regarding whether it was an ethical decision to buy a badger brush, have a badger brush, talk about a badger brush, or look at a badger brush... or not.

Come on, guys. Step back. If you want to eulogize the demise of a badger, just don't buy one of the brushes and quit preaching to the multitude of guys on this forum who aren't going to agree with you. I find the usual unenlightened false claims of "caring about our planet" a mite disingenuous. Just a mite. That means not a lot, but more than a tiny... and less than a little.

I hate to break this to some of you, but an animal does not know whether it died for its meat, its hide, its pecking order in the food chain, or how good it looks hanging on the wall. A badger is no more or no less important than a cow, a pig, a goat, a cockatoo, or a guppy. Should animals be respected? Yes. Should they be worshiped? No.

So, unless you don't eat meat or fish at all, you wouldn't wear or make use of any leather products including shoes-belts-wallets-cosmetics, and it's not an endangered species, then just hush up already.

And if you still have a valid complaint after all those clarifications, why in the world are you hanging out with a bunch of boys with whom you have nothing in common? :confused:

I'm thinkin' you could always start your own forum and call it something like...

Alternative Lifestyles...

Of course, in doing that you could possibly run the risk of being confused with a different group altogether. :biggrin: That's a joke, son, I say, thats' a joke. (I don't care who you are, that's funny right there - Larry the Cable Guy)

[Crag]

The vast majority of civilized humans only eat herbivorous animals (cows, pigs, sheep) and not carnivorous animals (cats, dogs, badgers)...

Sorry, but that's where you are incorrect...China has the Vastest Majority of Civilized Humans on Earth at 3.4 BILLION, and they eat Cats, Dogs, and yes, Badgers. It is actually a WESTERN custom to only eat Herbivores, not the other way around. Oh, and BTW Asian countries, as a whole, make up 4.4 BILLION people of the Total World population of just under 5.5 Billion. That means that 3/4 of the people in the entire world live in Asian countries.

[Siv]

Deleted

[HankG]

A reasonable assertion, but I for one am not convinced by this argument. I bet that they get more money for the pelt than the food is worth to them. The badgers are probably killed for the pelt and they make use of the meat as food so as not to waste (the meat is the by product), not the other way around.

Seriously, given the choice, wouldn't you rather have steak, lamb shank or pork belly rather than roast badger? The vast majority of civilized humans only eat herbivorous animals (cows, pigs, sheep) and not carnivorous animals (cats, dogs, badgers)...

Why do you believe the meat isn't just as, if not more, important than the money generated by selling the hides? As ogopogo pointed out, I don't think rural Chinese are wealthy enough to ignore a free food source. Without anyone actually going to China and observing, this is all speculation. However, I don't think anyone will say Chinese farmers are well off, and personally, if I am trying to keep myself from starving, I'll eat anything that will keep me alive.

As for whether or not I, or you for that matter, wouldn't like traditional American meats more than badger, who knows? I've never eaten badger, have you? It could be absolutely delicious. If you asked me five years ago would I like to eat frog legs, I'd have said hell no. Now, I just wish there was a place around here serving them.

Your use of the word civilized leads me to believe that you are saying that anyone who shares your views of the world is correct, and anyone who doesn't, well, they're not civilized so who cares? This seems especially so since you list cats and dogs as other carnivores, from which China has gained some measure of notoriety for eating. I wonder if it's easier to disregard someone's point of view if you can think of them as uncivilized savages.

The vast majority of civilized humans eat whatever will sustain them, and it is significantly easier, or perhaps only possible, to farm herbivores rather than carnivores. If it were possible to mass produce meat from carnivores, the American diet would most likely be very different from what it is now.

[Zen Master Kool-Aid]

I'm confused...

I thought this was supposed to be a thread on how the bristles of a badger were harvested and not to make any determinations regarding whether it was an ethical decision to buy a badger brush, have a badger brush, talk about a badger brush, or look at a badger brush... or not.


If you look at the post that began this thread, you will probably glean that it was intended to determine the fate of the badgers, and that the discussion was intended to address ethics from the start.

[Zen Master Kool-Aid]

Why do you believe the meat isn't just as, if not more, important than the money generated by selling the hides? As ogopogo pointed out, I don't think rural Chinese are wealthy enough to ignore a free food source. Without anyone actually going to China and observing, this is all speculation. However, I don't think anyone will say Chinese farmers are well off, and personally, if I am trying to keep myself from starving, I'll eat anything that will keep me alive.

As for whether or not I, or you for that matter, wouldn't like traditional American meats more than badger, who knows? I've never eaten badger, have you? It could be absolutely delicious. If you asked me five years ago would I like to eat frog legs, I'd have said hell no. Now, I just wish there was a place around here serving them.

Your use of the word civilized leads me to believe that you are saying that anyone who shares your views of the world is correct, and anyone who doesn't, well, they're not civilized so who cares? This seems especially so since you list cats and dogs as other carnivores, from which China has gained some measure of notoriety for eating. I wonder if it's easier to disregard someone's point of view if you can think of them as uncivilized savages.

The vast majority of civilized humans eat whatever will sustain them, and it is significantly easier, or perhaps only possible, to farm herbivores rather than carnivores. If it were possible to mass produce meat from carnivores, the American diet would most likely be very different from what it is now.
I think that what crosses the farmers mind is something more like, "That critter is #&6$ing with my crops/livestock/etc..."

That's what would be crossing mine anyway. Of course, thats not to say they scoff at the reward of the pelt or that they wouldn't use the meat. But I think the perspective of the farmer with a gun is to protect what he already has rather than to go digging for gold in a badgers den. But only the farmer could truly say.

[Siv]

Your use of the word civilized leads me to believe that you are saying that anyone who shares your views of the world is correct, and anyone who doesn't, well, they're not civilized so who cares?
My use of the word civilized was not meant to mean this at all. In fact, the statement should have been written without that word in it. I'm no Shakespeare and I'll be the first to admit it!

Clearly this "discussion" is getting far to heated for a shaving forum. I appologize for making my comments which many of you are quite passionate about so I'm going to remove my posts. I'm here to talk about shaving, after all, not badger wellfare.

[BillEllis]

If you look at the post that began this thread, you will probably glean that it was intended to determine the fate of the badgers, and that the discussion was intended to address ethics from the start.You and I GLEAN different things. From his quote from that very first post,
...but does anybody know the common procedure for people seeking to make shaving brushes to get hair from badgers? I actually gleaned from that part of his sentence that he was curious as to how the hair got from the badger to the socket on the brush.

I was curious as well, which is why I started reading the thread. I've already heard every argument there is regarding the use of animals as food/clothing and I'm not interested in reading the worn-out script again. Since you are the Zen guy who can clearly deduce a writer's intent from words that don't seem to match your assessment, I'll pass on the rest of this discussion and start my own.

[sklegg]

Clearly this "discussion" is getting far to heated for a shaving forum. I appologize for making my comments which many of you are quite passionate about so I'm going to remove my posts. I'm here to talk about shaving, after all, not badger wellfare.

Bravo to Siv for ending the argument peacefully.

[Zen Master Kool-Aid]

I was curious as well, which is why I started reading the thread. I've already heard every argument there is regarding the use of animals as food/clothing and I'm not interested in reading the worn-out script again. Since you are the Zen guy who can clearly deduce a writer's intent from words that don't seem to match your assessment, I'll pass on the rest of this discussion and start my own.

I didn't mean to upset you, Bill.

It just seems that the original poster is concerned about ethics because he mentions synthetic brushes and asks about the fate of the badgers in addition to what you've quoted.