View Full Version : Soap with Tallow ?
We are considering adding-tallow based soaps to our product line both in bath bars, hard shaving soap and possibly shave creams. What are your thoughts regarding the use of animal by-products? Although seemingly unpopular within the general population; the appeal of Tallow soap appears to be high with B & B Members. Is this artificially high because those opposed to animal by-products are more vocal? (To clarify -- Tallow is from beef or mutton and lard is from pigs).
SepticTank
10-20-2008, 01:09 PM
If the animals were being bred/slaughtered primarily for the tallow, I'd have a problem - as it's a byproduct of meat and leather production I have no issue at all in using tallow-based soap.
jeremy
10-20-2008, 01:20 PM
I don't necessarily 'prefer' tallow soap, but I have no issues personally with soap containing tallow.
Or bacon grease :w00t:
Suzuki
10-20-2008, 01:26 PM
Tallow does not make a shaving soap great, but many of the great shaving soaps have tallow in them...
Many folks seem to notice a difference in the reformulated soaps that have gone from having tallow to being all veggie.
FWIW, I do like the soaps with tallow in them.
TimmyBoston
10-20-2008, 01:30 PM
I really like all the high quality soaps. Tallow soaps are great, but so are top notch Triple Milled ones.
1969Fatboy
10-20-2008, 01:33 PM
I do like tallow based but also gets exceptional shaves with certain veggie(palm oil?) soaps. I think the Floris and Joris(yeah they rhyme!) are absolutely incredible performers. I honestly dont think though that I could do a blind soap test and tell the difference though. Basically...I take it or leave it:)
ogopogo
10-20-2008, 01:52 PM
I don't mind tallow based soaps, though I prefer triple milled soaps.
1969Fatboy
10-20-2008, 02:51 PM
I don't mind tallow based soaps, though I prefer triple milled soaps.
How about the triple milled tallowed based soaps?
norman931
10-20-2008, 04:43 PM
My favorite soaps are non-tallow. I am so far the lone dissenter in this poll, but I have nothing against the use of animal products. I just seem to prefer the other kind.
mdunn
10-20-2008, 04:50 PM
i like good soap. if its got tallow, so be it.
(i also like steak)
I'm with Septic, if there were "tallow farms" where animals were just raised for tallow I'd have a problem with it. If you have to kill an animal, then use everything you can from it, tallow included.
Hmmm, a steak scented shaving soap.....:w00t:
mparker762
10-20-2008, 06:32 PM
There are good soaps with tallow and good soaps without. Of my two favorite soaps one is veggie (Gold-Dachs Spezial) and one tallow (Penhaligons pre-reformulation - fortunately I have a stash). There are also tallow soaps that are pretty unpopular (Williams for example), which tends to belie the legendary qualities of tallow.
I think a lot of the fandom towards tallow around here came about because reformulation has generally resulted in lower-quality soaps that also have little or no tallow, and correlation is being confused with causation.
TstebinsB
10-20-2008, 06:41 PM
There are good soaps with tallow and good soaps without. Of my two favorite soaps one is veggie (Gold-Dachs Spezial) and one tallow (Penhaligons pre-reformulation - fortunately I have a stash). There are also tallow soaps that are pretty unpopular (Williams for example), which tends to belie the legendary qualities of tallow.
I think a lot of the fandom towards tallow around here came about because reformulation has generally resulted in lower-quality soaps that also have little or no tallow, and correlation is being confused with causation.
I love it when you talk alliteration. :tongue_sm
CarlJN
10-20-2008, 06:50 PM
I've got nothing against using animal by-products. I'm against slaughtering an animal and then wasting what is left. That is the real crime.
Plus I can have my prime rib, a winter jacket and good shave soap! That way I can get a good shave, put on my shoes and jacket, and go out and get a good steak dinner.
Regarding the re-formulated soaps to an all veggie base, is anyone certain that is the only differance? Couldn't other changes have been made for cost saving and/or profit margin measures?
In contrast, making soap with oils and butters such as shea, costs a good deal more than lard or tallow. The preparation time would also be much shorter.
Sue
Norbert Sykes
10-20-2008, 07:30 PM
I think the poll is forgetting another option:
"I don't disapprove of tallow or lard based soaps, but don't necessarily prefer them".
I prefer triple-milled soaps, and their containing tallow is not an issue or a preference of mine, so I can't vote in this poll as neither option reflects my reality. I bet others that have voted have a similar opinion, but given that there are only two options, they voted for the opposite of "I do NOT approve of the use of animal by-products" even thought they don't necessarily "prefer tallow or lard based soaps". But when you have to pick from one of the two...
I took stock in the fact that many have raved about tallow, so the first triple milled I tried was Tabac. I thought it blew away the glycerin based soaps I've tried. Then I tried Provence Sante and although it didn't come in as cool a bowl or have the masculine fragrance, it blew away Tabac in slickness and overall performance, yet contains no tallow. I don't buy in to the "wiping animal fat on my face is better" meme any more.
Mr. Igg
10-20-2008, 09:40 PM
I'm not sure I have a super strong preference--maybe put me down with Norbert on that point--but I wanted to chime in with those who see tallow as a byproduct and thus don't have a problem. If it were the primary product from animal slaughter, my vote would change.
Jimbo
10-20-2008, 09:48 PM
I think soap makers shying away from tallow is also related to worries over Mad Cow Disease. The tallow has to be rendered and the chance of nerve tissue getting mixed in is pretty high.
I'm not worried about it but it seems there are a lot of people in North America and Europe that don't have enough to worry about.
I like tallow, I like glycerin, I just don't like stuff that sucks :lol:
htownmmm
10-20-2008, 10:18 PM
No preference-good shave soap is good shave soap.
marty
OldSchoolYoungin
10-20-2008, 10:22 PM
Yes, Yes, YES! I love the way tallow treats my face.
Jarmo P
10-20-2008, 10:42 PM
Yes, of course I prefer to use tallow based soaps.
And as long as we eat cow meat there is no shortage of tallow and thus soaps made from it are also more ecofriendly than veggy soaps.
soapbuddy
10-20-2008, 10:58 PM
Yes, of course I prefer to use tallow based soaps.
And as long as we eat cow meat there is no shortage of tallow and thus soaps made from it are also more ecofriendly than veggy soaps.
+1 for myself. My "granola crowd" would say no.
DeaconKC
10-21-2008, 04:36 AM
I do not require it, but I personally have nothing against the products. If it works better, go for it!
mark3d
10-21-2008, 05:10 AM
the wording of the poll makes it a bit loaded :smile: "i prefer tallow" and "i do not approve the use of tallow"
put me down as "i prefer not to use tallow" :smile:
1969Fatboy
10-21-2008, 06:11 AM
No preference-good shave soap is good shave soap.
marty
+1:001_smile Bottom line, that is whats important. I think Shea butter, clays, oils provides very good results if not better than some tallow soaps. I believe at one time it was the common practice and maybe the only option. Technology has been kind enough to find other alternatives that are just as good if not better. I think tallow should be used since I dont want to go to waste but I am not strictly going to buy a soap just b/c it has tallow. On the flip side as Jim noted that the palm oil is becoming more scarce as we speak which is a lot bigger problem that using a quickly renewable resource such as beef tallow:001_smile
Dennis
10-21-2008, 06:32 AM
My suggestion would be to try making some tallow-based shaving soaps and see if your testers like it, especially compared to your normal formulations. I don't have a preference or not if a soap contains tallow. Tallow is just a fat that in this case comes from cows. Part of the "no tallow" meme is likely so one could say their products "are not tested on animals" or similar reason. Another could be if you wanted to make vegan products or to have the maximum amount of product available to the widest groups (ie veggie based soaps are vegan friendly and people who don't care otherwise can use them none the wiser if they don't care). I do think the reason you see so much talk about tallow here is that you can find old soaps on the Bay. If you buy, say, an old Penhaligons soap from the 50s still in the original box and it gives you the best lather you ever had. You buy the current Penhaligons soap, which does not have tallow listed as the first ingredient, and it doesn't work as well as old soap you have. The assuption then is that the switch away from tallow makes a difference. Who knows what else they changed though? Keep in mind there are tallow soaps that kind of suck too, like Williams. Good soap is good soap. It is not necessarily just because it has tallow in it.
SepticTank
10-21-2008, 06:41 AM
Part of the "no tallow" meme is likely so one could say their products "are not tested on animals" or similar reason.
Just because it's made from animal product doesn't mean it has to be tested on animals... I know I worked at a well known cosmetic factory for a summer job and instead of testing their (animal-derived lanolin-containing) cosmetics on wuvwy fwuffy bunnies®, we could get what amounted to a 20% pay increase for it being tested on us.
Dennis
10-21-2008, 06:46 AM
Just because it's made from animal product doesn't mean it has to be tested on animals... I know I worked at a well known cosmetic factory for a summer job and instead of testing their (animal-derived lanolin-containing) cosmetics on wuvwy fwuffy bunnies®, we could get what amounted to a 20% pay increase for it being tested on us.
Right - exactly. I was just trying to find simple way to talk about making a veggie or vegan product because it does not contain animal parts. They are not the same thing but I couldn't think of a similar phrase. :blush:
I think something else changed with the reformulation. That would be a good time to reduce and/or rebalance the ingredients used without dislosure. Using one of our products as an example, Aftershave Splash will result in tackyness for many new users who use way too much product. This happens with almost all users. But to apply only a couple drops, there is no tackyness and most everyone is pleased with the results. A bottle will last a very long time--why, it's just not watered down.
If I wanted to water it down (I won't), I could change the formulation to a huge increase in water. It would not change the ingredient listing in any way since water although higher on the order of ingredients would still remain so - simply because the percentage is highest of the ingredients after the SD alcohol.
The results would be beneficial not only in cost savings to SCS but it would be used up faster by the customer and using too much would not be a 'tacky' issue.
With percentages dictating the order of ingredients, there is a lot of room to manipulate those percentages and still remain in the same window. This is possible with many products.
Just like washing your car, adding one tablespoon of RainX detergent to a bucket of water or three tablespoons of RainX to the bucket still results in your main ingredient being water.
Sue
Confilo
10-21-2008, 08:11 AM
Tallow or lots of lanolin for me
cstewart
10-21-2008, 08:12 AM
I don't have a preference one way or the other but I voted 'yes' because I'm not opposed to tallow.
john.crissman
10-21-2008, 08:33 AM
Hi Sue,
I think it would be a great addition. When you do a blind test between unmarked tallow based and non-tallow soaps it is clear which they prefer. Tallow is a natural product and is inevitable as long as humanity remains carnivorous. So it is much better used than thrown away.
I look forward to hearing the results!
FloorPizza
10-21-2008, 09:03 AM
On topic: I like the two tallow based soaps I have. I'd like to try more.
Off topic: there are several posts here that say tallow based soaps can't be triple milled. I believe that is incorrect. I have two triple milled soaps that have tallow in them.
Rughi
10-21-2008, 09:08 AM
Tallow or lots of lanolin for me
Or in the case of MWF, both!
Roger
Good soap is good soap. It is not necessarily just because it has tallow in it.
+1. I don't eat red meat but you can betcherass I use tallow-based soaps. The ones I have make my skin feel great afterwards.
I also have some glycerin-based soaps that treat my skin just as well as the tallow-based soaps. So as Dennis and some others have rightly pointed out, good soap is good soap. I don't much care what's in it as long as it does the trick well.
justpursuit
10-21-2008, 11:32 AM
Most of us do use Badger shave brushes right?
1969Fatboy
10-21-2008, 11:42 AM
Most of us do use Badger shave brushes right?
:confused: Well yeah:001_smile maybe....start using badger tallow:w00t:
soapbuddy
10-21-2008, 05:04 PM
maybe....start using badger tallow:w00t:
Now that's a thought!:lol:
Norbert Sykes
10-21-2008, 06:50 PM
Off topic: there are several posts here that say tallow based soaps can't be triple milled. I believe that is incorrect. I have two triple milled soaps that have tallow in them.
I've read a lot of the soap threads in this forum and I don't recall anyone making that claim. Perhaps you're confusing this with hearing that triple milled soaps must have the glycerin removed before going through the milling process?
soapbuddy
10-21-2008, 07:07 PM
Tallow based soaps that are handcrafted would be very hard to triple mill. With each milling (or rebatching), handmade soap gets drier which makes it difficult to "glop" into a mold. Handmade triple milled would also be, let's say, "esthetically challenged".
DirtyDave
10-22-2008, 11:57 AM
I don't have problem with it one way or the other.
burningdarkness
10-22-2008, 05:47 PM
I also have some glycerin-based soaps that treat my skin just as well as the tallow-based soaps. So as Dennis and some others have rightly pointed out, good soap is good soap. I don't much care what's in it as long as it does the trick well.
My thoughts exactly.
badboris
10-22-2008, 06:27 PM
i prefer tallow
VR6ofpain
10-22-2008, 06:44 PM
Tabac. Nuff said.
FloorPizza
10-23-2008, 05:01 AM
I really like all the high quality soaps. Tallow soaps are great, but so are top notch Triple Milled ones.
I don't mind tallow based soaps, though I prefer triple milled soaps.
How about the triple milled tallowed based soaps?
I've read a lot of the soap threads in this forum and I don't recall anyone making that claim. Perhaps you're confusing this with hearing that triple milled soaps must have the glycerin removed before going through the milling process?
See above.:smile:
dcormier
10-23-2008, 03:06 PM
I have nothing against the use of tallow, though I have never used a tallow-based (or triple-milled) shave soap.
That said, if you make a batch using bacon fat you can definitely put me down for some of that. :biggrin:
Norbert Sykes
10-23-2008, 03:20 PM
See above.:smile:
None of those posts are claims that tallow based soaps can't be triple milled. I doubt any of those posters believe such a thing, especially 1969Fatboy who I know is a very knowledgeable poster.
FloorPizza
10-25-2008, 01:37 PM
None of those posts are claims that tallow based soaps can't be triple milled. I doubt any of those posters believe such a thing, especially 1969Fatboy who I know is a very knowledgeable poster.
I forgot to preface 1969Fatboy's quote, as he was posting a similar question as I was.... triple milled soaps can be tallow based. The others, however, seemed to be implying that it wasn't possible to have triple milled tallow based soaps.
Norbert Sykes
10-25-2008, 03:28 PM
I forgot to preface 1969Fatboy's quote, as he was posting a similar question as I was.... triple milled soaps can be tallow based. The others, however, seemed to be implying that it wasn't possible to have triple milled tallow based soaps.
TimmyBoston's quote was in this very thread. He said "I really like all the high quality soaps. Tallow soaps are great, but so are top notch Triple Milled ones."
How does that statement imply that tallow based soaps can't be triple milled? I can see how one may think that he might think that most tallow based soaps aren't triple milled by that statement, but not that they can't be. Considering that he's a mod on a message board specializing in all things shaving related and has 10,000 posts, I doubt he thinks that either.
The same with ogopogo's statement. It doesn't imply in the least that he thinks that tallow based soaps can't be triple milled. It seems he's just stating that he doesn't mind tallow based soaps, but since he prefers triple milled soaps adding tallow to a non-triple milled soap probably isn't going to cut it for him the way a triple milled would. Just my wag on the interpretations, but none of the three statements you posted would lead me to believe the posters think that tallow based soaps can't be triple milled.
.045% ~ Wow, I am very surprised at the results so far. In order of standard questions we receive by email; I would have to say asking if our soap contains animal by-products is in the top 25%.
In response to those that prefer triple milled soaps, this is not something the home-based soap maker can offer due to the machinery required.
Sue
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