Gentleman's Essentials: Table Manners

[burningdarkness]

General Etiquette:

Be sure to turn off or silence your cell phone; you are in the company of others. Take your hat off at the table. Sit upright in your chair with your feet flat on the floor. Do not rock your chair back.

Once seated, the napkin goes in your lap. If you must leave the table, excuse yourself politely and place the napkin on your chair. It is acceptable to rest your forearms on the table. It is not, however, acceptable to place your elbows on the table.

If someone is hosting, wait for him or her to start eating before you do, unless he or she tells you otherwise. Also, don’t start eating until every person has been served. An exception to this is if those who were not served request you begin without waiting.

When passing anything on the table, always pass to the right. Never reach across the table.

Work from the outside in with silverware. If present, the outside fork is for salad, the next one in is for the entrée, etc. Your fork may be held in either hand, but when cutting, the fork goes in the left hand. The blade of your knife should be placed on the edge of your plate when you aren’t using it (with the sharp part facing the inside of the plate). A used piece of silverware should never be placed back on the table. When you finish eating soup, or stirring tea/coffee that is in a saucer, place the used spoon on the soup plate/saucer.

Don’t blow on any food (to cool it down) and don’t slurp soups. While no one really pays attention, the proper way to eat soup is to spoon the soup away from you. Tip the bowl away from you to polish off the soup.

When eating meat and other foods that need to be sliced before consumption only slice a couple of pieces at a time. Do not cut up the entire slab of steak before eating from it.

Do not speak with your mouth full. Take smaller bites so you don’t look like a ravenous animal and so you can respond to questions in a timely, non-embarrassing manner when the opportunity presents itself.

When you have finished eating, place your utensils onto your plate with the handles hanging slightly off the edge at the 4:00 position. The tips of the utensils should be near the center of the plate and the blade of the knife should be pointing towards you.

Try to keep pace with everyone else so that you finish with the majority of the group (you don’t want to be the last one eating and you don’t want to be the first one done either).


Setting a Table:

When setting a table, the bread plate/salad is placed above and left of the main plate. The beverage(s) are set on the right. If a bread knife is to be used, it should be placed on the bread plate with the handle pointing to the right.

Forks and the napkin are placed to the left of the main plate. If a salad is to be served, the salad fork should be to the left of the main fork. Soup spoons and knives are placed on the right of the main plate, with the soup spoon on the outside of the knife. Dessert utensils should be placed above the plate, or simply served with desert. Remember to only set cutlery that will be required for the meal.

Wine glasses are typically placed directly above the knife with the water glass to the left of it. Coffee mugs or teacups are placed to the right of the setting with the cup’s handle and the handle of the spoon pointing right.


When in a restaurant:

To signal the waiter, subtly wave your hand. Never snap your fingers or yell for your waiter. Asking for recommendations is perfectly fine, but don’t say something along the lines of “what’s good?”

If you’re in a fancy restaurant with bussers and waiters, you can let the busser know you want bread or water, but do not try to order other drinks or food from him/her.

In high-end restaurants, never, ever add anything to a meal that has been prepared by a chef. This is insulting to the chef. If you’re really set on adding something (such as salt, pepper, etc.), taste what you were given first before doing so. What I’m really trying to get at here is that you should trust the seasonings used by the chef. (If you go to a hamburger joint, it’s perfectly fine to put ketchup on your burger).

[Hobbesoxon]

Great stuff, thanks for posting! I'm sure we can all learn something from that excellent post. A few comments, if I may, this being a subject in which I take a passing interest:


When passing anything on the table, always pass to the right.

While it's exceedingly important to exhibit good manners, we have to be careful that we're not learning pointless rules that have no basis in utility. The above rule, for example. I'm speaking from an English perspective, so perhaps this is a common polite behaviour among Americans, but generally I would say that it's a load of old rhubarb. :)

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that passing items to the left is improper. During full butler service, it is often expected, in fact. Pass left and right with confidence, I say!



Your fork may be held in either hand, but when cutting, the fork goes in the left hand. The blade of your knife should be placed on the edge of your plate when you aren’t using it (with the sharp part facing the inside of the plate).

Big alarm bells are ringing. This may be acceptable in American society, but only children and oafs (no offense, but it is honestly considered oafish) eat that way in Europe. Always hold your fork in your left, and your knife in your right. No exceptions.

Also, when placing cutley on plate (in order to leave the table, or just to pause for polite conversation - do plenty of this), you should never prop it up on the plate (as I think is suggested above) as if it were a board leading up to a pirate ship - it's unstable, and instability is impolite as you don't want to mess up your host's cloth. The knife and fork should both be placed on the plate, fork on the left, knife on the right. Don't place them together, because that will signal the staff that you have finished your plate, and wish to have it removed.


While no one really pays attention, the proper way to eat soup is to spoon the soup away from you. Tip the bowl away from you to polish off the soup.

...and take your soup from the broad edge of the spoon, of course. Don't shovel it into your mouth as if you were feeding an infant.



When setting a table, the bread plate/salad is placed above and left of the main plate.

Directly to the left of the main charger/plate is the practice here. It would be annoying to your diner to have to reach forward for their bread-plate.


Wine glasses are typically placed directly above the knife with the water glass to the left of it. Coffee mugs or teacups are placed to the right of the setting with the cup’s handle and the handle of the spoon pointing right.

Under no circumstances should coffee cups (never, ever mugs) or tea cups be placed on the table during dining. Bring them in at the end.

As you describe, the correct placement for glasses is above the knives. They traditionally cluster in a 2x2 grid. They are arranged from bottom-left to top-right in order of typical use. Water glass in the bottom-left. White wine glass (typically used first, of the dinner wines) in the bottom-right. Red wine glass top-left (typically used later, of the dinner wines, due to its heavier character). Pudding wine glass in the top-right (serve an actual pudding wine - save the madeira and port for desserts, once you have left the table. Drink sherry before the meal).

It's acceptable to bring your champagne glass to the table. Don't rush it, but don't keep drinking it after the first course of wines have been served. It might get removed at this stage by the staff, too.



In high-end restaurants, never, ever add anything to a meal that has been prepared by a chef. This is insulting to the chef. If you’re really set on adding something (such as salt, pepper, etc.), taste what you were given first before doing so. What I’m really trying to get at here is that you should trust the seasonings used by the chef.

This is true up to a point. You wouldn't ask the chef to add garlic to his speciality, but it is accepted that everyone has their individual taste when it comes to final seasoning. It's perfectly acceptable at every table in the land, from the brick-layer's to the Queen's, to add salt and pepper according to your taste, once at the table. Do try it first, of course, to avoid being what Pratchett calls "an autocondimenter". =)


There's so much more that could be written (buy Debretts if you're interested), but the general rule is: be considerate. Manners are nothing more than making your fellow man feel at ease, and show that you consider him.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[TimmyBoston]

Always hold your fork in your left, and your knife in your right. No exceptions.

Hobbes

I'm an American and I always eat that way. I'm right handed, but apparently it's uncommon enough here in the States that when eating out with acquaintances I am routinely asked if I'm left handed because my fork never leaves my left hand.

[Hobbesoxon]

This topic always causes healthy debate with Americans. Sure, in America - do what you like would be my advise. "When in Rome, do as the Romans." When I go to India, I plan to eat curry with my hands and scoops of naan bread. =)

European perspective: putting down your knife, and using your fork only, is seen as shovelling food into your mouth, as if you were feeding a train with coal. It's inelegant and makes you look like a ruffian. It's fine in the comfort of your own home, but if you're doing it at a Formal Hall or other decent dinner, you're just going to get punched directly in the face. No one likes being punched directly in the face.

My college has a very large number of students from the US, typically around 50%. Using both items of cutlery to eat a meal is the Number One thing they all do differently upon arrival. They all change their habits ("When in Rome...") after a while, some faster than others, but usually within the first two months. The majority of these folk are from US Ivy League establishments, too, for what it's worth. It's just a cultural difference. However, behave like that outside the US, and the aforementioned face-punching can be only moments away.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[blades]

Don't put huge chunks of food in your mouth because you're to lazy to cut it into smaller pieces.
When eating out I have seen countless folks try to manoeuvre huge blobs into their mouths with the ensuing mess that results, not a pleasant sight, besides it's healthier to feed a mouth with smaller pieces.

and switch OFF that damned cell phone, it's so disrespectful of present company.

[Prince]

Cell phone - 100% of the time need to be turned off or at least silenced.

My wife always adds pepper/salt before trying the meal first - habit I guess. :biggrin:

Try to eat with my mother-in-law - she eats so fast, I'm not even half finished before she's pushing her empty plate from away from her.

For some reason, I like to enjoy my meal.

Thanks for the reminder on manners.

[Stauff]

Cell phone - 100% of the time need to be turned off or at least silenced.

My wife always adds pepper/salt before trying the meal first - habit I guess. :biggrin:

Try to eat with my mother-in-law - she eats so fast, I'm not even half finished before she's pushing her empty plate from away from her.

For some reason, I like to enjoy my meal.

Thanks for the reminder on manners.

Another thing one should avoid doing.

[RichGem]

Chew with your lips closed.

Don't talk with food in your mouth. If you must violate this for some reason, put your hand or napkin in front of your mouth.

Don't even think of answering the cell phone unless someone is bleeding to death on the other end and excuse yourself from the table before answering.

Cell phone off or set to vibrate.

Put down any flatware that is not immediately in use (ie: do not hold on to the knife that is not cutting. Do not gesticulate with the flatware, etc.)

The napkin's right there; use it, we care not whether you wipe or blot your mouth, but pick one.

edit: Bring the food to your mouth, not the reverse. (ie: don't hunch down over the plate)

[Rorschuck]

Oh man, this could get out of hand; already the cultural differences are glaring (pudding wine?!? We don't do "pudding" on this side of the pond, Msr. Toodlepip. :biggrin:) (on the plus side, that means we don't have to worry about eating our meat)

And the "no slurping soup" bit will no doubt be contested by some of our Japanese friends...

[Baloosh]

Don't even think of answering the cell phone unless someone is bleeding to death on the other end and excuse yourself from the table before answering.



How would one know the status of anyone on the other end, unless one answered the call? Agreed with excusing yourself from the table before answering.

[Rorschuck]

European perspective: putting down your knife, and using your fork only, is seen as shovelling food into your mouth, as if you were feeding a train with coal. It's inelegant and makes you look like a ruffian.


So, you would use a knife on mashed potatoes? Bite-sized vegetable morsels?

[RichGem]

How would one know the status of anyone on the other end, unless one answered the call? Agreed with excusing yourself from the table before answering.

uh, that was sarcasm. my point being that if you know it isn't going to be an important call, don't take it.

[RichGem]

So, you would use a knife on mashed potatoes? Bite-sized vegetable morsels?

Euro custom, IIRC, is to use the back (bottom) of the fork for small veg, potatoes, etc. (ie: flip the fork over so the tines are pointing down and place the food on the curve of the tines.) But, to me it always seemed too tricky to balance and not end up wearing your peas (or whatever). However, I do tend to eat food that I've stabbed with the tines using the fork in this position. But, then, I also always eat left handed and use my right for the knife (tho, I'm not Euro).

[Magicpixie]

So, you would use a knife on mashed potatoes? Bite-sized vegetable morsels?

Yes. Use knife and fork to pick up desired amount of mash on back of the fork and spear* anything bite size with the fork.

Anyway it all depends on where you are and who you're with. Personally, unless you're teaching a child how to eat, I think telling someone how to eat 'properly' shows very bad manners.

As long I as feel that I have shown the appropriate manners for the occassion I don't really care about what the rest of the table are doing (kids excepted - it'll be chaos otherwise :smile:). There're enough things in the world to worry about.

Just my tuppence worth.

*Not with an overarm mammoth hunting action. :wink:

[ouch]

I usually eat alone, as by the time I prepare a plate for myself the girls have already wolfed down the grub too quickly to even notice if there was silverware on the table. Is this covered in your rules?

One more thing- a lot of you guys are going to have some explaining to do when you find out that god is left handed.

[RichGem]

I usually eat alone, as by the time I prepare a plate for myself the girls have already wolfed down the grub too quickly to even notice if there was silverware on the table. Is this covered in your rules?

One more thing- a lot of you guys are going to have some explaining to do when you find out that god is left handed.

And we know this... because? (waiting for really good/funny joke/proof).

[Hobbesoxon]

and switch OFF that damned cell phone, it's so disrespectful of present company.

Last year, I had an American to visit for business. He was a nice guy. We went to a great local restaurant, because he was paying (heh), so we picked a really good venue (The Old Parsonage, if you know Oxford). He didn't turn off his 'phone, and kept answering it. OK, I can deal with that. It happens.

Then he started tapping away on his laptop.

I had to restrain myself from jumping over the table and forking his hands. That wouldn't have been polite of me.



So, you would use a knife on mashed potatoes? Bite-sized vegetable morsels?

Oh yes. The knife is your little controlling instrument, with which you elegantly load your fork. Without it, you are pushing food around your plate like a 3-year-old. :)

Peas are the traditional classic. The etiquette books all say that you should always try to eat them in combination with other foods, so that you can use the fork in the correct (tines-down) position. In practice, unless you're at a black-tie affair, most people will flip the fork over and indulge in a little wanton shoveling. Usually with a guilty expression. It's typical for most people to avoid peas at formal dinner. :D


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

P.s. Pudding wine: know it, love it. :)

P.p.s. I'm fully aware that most Americans think English folk are effette fools for eating the way we do, while the English reciprocate for thinking that Americans are a bunch of oiks. Such is the beauty of cultural differences. For what it's worth, the relationship between the French and the English is the same as between the English and the American (with the French thinking we are barbarians, and we thinking the French are nancies). Figuratively speaking, middle-of-the-bell-curve, generalising stuff. :)

[Hobbesoxon]

Personally, unless you're teaching a child how to eat, I think telling someone how to eat 'properly' shows very bad manners.

This is so, so true. Never have this discussion with anyone outside B&B unless it's a mutual fun thing. Lecturing someone on their bad manners in The Real World is hideously bourgeois. I haven't ever seen it happen yet, but I'm waiting...

[Rorschuck]

Oh yes. The knife is your little controlling instrument, with which you elegantly load your fork. Without it, you are pushing food around your plate like a 3-year-old. :)


Well, I'd hardly call gently dipping into a mound of mashed 'taters "pushing food around your plate like a 3-year-old", but to each his own; you did bring us Floris and Penhaligon's, so I'll let your effete ninnyness slide. :wink:

[Rorschuck]

This is so, so true. Never have this discussion with anyone outside B&B unless it's a mutual fun thing. Lecturing someone on their bad manners in The Real World is hideously bourgeois. I haven't ever seen it happen yet, but I'm waiting...

Yes, a direct punch in the face is more the norm. :biggrin:

[Hobbesoxon]

Yes, a direct punch in the face is more the norm. :biggrin:

You know what they say, "A good kicking never hurt anyone."

[burningdarkness]

Sorry, all. I should have specified that these are American table manners. Table manners in the UK, Europe, and in other countries are quite different. Even still, most of these points are not strict rules, but generalizations and/or suggestions. Please take the post with a grain of salt. :biggrin: (No pun intended, I swear). Thank you all for your contributions to this thread.

Also, I forgot to add a small statement to the passing 'rule'. Typically, you pass to the right. However, you never want to send anything in the direction opposite to the direction everything else is passed in (yes, it's a silly rule, but usually only used in more formal settings).

I'm sure I've missed a lot of things/mis-stated some things or just wrote in a confusing manner. Please draw my attention to them. Constructive criticism will only make this 'guide' better.

Thanks, B&B!

[burningdarkness]

I usually eat alone, as by the time I prepare a plate for myself the girls have already wolfed down the grub too quickly to even notice if there was silverware on the table. Is this covered in your rules?

One more thing- a lot of you guys are going to have some explaining to do when you find out that god is left handed.

I'm not sure if that's covered in my rules. It depends on what you're eating, I think. Send me a plate of food every night and I'll tell you what rules apply to that dish.

Is Ouch saying that he's left-handed? I am left-handed, too. We are a proud folk that have subsisted on the scraps and remains of right-handed oppression.

[Trius]

I had to restrain myself from jumping over the table and forking his hands. That wouldn't have been polite of me.


Indeed. But highly entertaining! You could attribute it to your former days as a football hooligan. :biggrin:

[Taipei Personality]

The knife is your little controlling instrument, with which you elegantly load your fork.

Although I'm a Colonial, this is the reason I eat in the European fashion, even before I knew it was the European fashion. It's simply easier and makes more sense.

[ouch]

I'm not sure if that's covered in my rules. It depends on what you're eating, I think. Send me a plate of food every night and I'll tell you what rules apply to that dish.

Okay, but you'd better be nice to me, or I'll slip in some of Mrs. Ouch's creations.


Is Ouch saying that he's left-handed? I am left-handed, too. We are a proud folk that have subsisted on the scraps and remains of right-handed oppression.

My friend, we are the only true minority.

I've tried explaining to my right handed friends that the only reason runners circle the bases counterclockwise in baseball is that there are more righties than lefties. They all poo poo this notion, revealing their advanced stages of mental decrepitude.

Wait'll they try to open a can in heaven. :tongue_sm

[MotoMike]

Did I miss the rule about securing a coating of peas to your spoon full of mashed potatos? Should I be using my fork:confused:?

[burningdarkness]

Did I miss the rule about securing a coating of peas to your spoon full of mashed potatos? Should I be using my fork:confused:?

You should only use a spoon when it is completely impossible to pick up the food with a fork. Thus, peas and mashed potatoes should both be eaten with a fork.

[RichGem]

You should only use a spoon when it is completely impossible to pick up the food with a fork. Thus, peas and mashed potatoes should both be eaten with a fork.

What about the whole spoon vs. fork for dessert deal? I've always preferred a fork for cake, pie, etc., (there are, after all, "dessert forks") but many times I've been given a spoon. Is there a "rule" on this? Or just individual preference?

[RichGem]

Did I miss the rule about securing a coating of peas to your spoon full of mashed potatos? Should I be using my fork:confused:?

I think this applies only if you make an indentation in your pile of mashed which is then filled with brown gravy. Then, you can use the mashed to pick up the peas. :biggrin:

[burningdarkness]

What about the whole spoon vs. fork for dessert deal? I've always preferred a fork for cake, pie, etc., (there are, after all, "dessert forks") but many times I've been served a spoon. Is there a "rule" on this? Or just individual preference?

Forks are suitable for cakes, etc. If you're served a spoon, don't demand a fork. Rather, eat with what you are served.

[RichGem]

This might be a more Euro/Polish thing, but one that I follow.... the unused hand doesn't belong in your lap. Rather, rest that forearm or wrist (not elbow) against the table gently (unless the chair has arms).

[Rorschuck]

I think this applies only if you make an indentation in your pile of mashed which is then filled with brown gravy. Then, you can use the mashed to pick up the peas. :biggrin:

I eat my peas with honey; it keeps them on the knife. :wink:

[langod]

I'm fully aware that most Americans think English folk are effette fools for eating the way we do, while the English reciprocate for thinking that Americans are a bunch of oiks.


My wife tells a story of her visit to England 20-odd years ago. She saw a television commercial there for Pizza Hut (I think) and the ad made fun of us American barbarians for picking up pizza and eating it with our hands as opposed to the civilized practice of using a knife and fork.

[RichGem]

My wife tells a story of her visit to England 20-odd years ago. She saw a television commercial there for Pizza Hut (I think) and the ad made fun of us American barbarians for picking up pizza and eating it with our hands as opposed to the civilized practice of using a knife and fork.

I think all of us Americans will agree... knife and fork + pizza = sooo wrong. Now, whether you fold it in half (long ways) or not before cramming it into your mouth, is up for debate.

[Hobbesoxon]

What about the whole spoon vs. fork for dessert deal? I've always preferred a fork for cake, pie, etc., (there are, after all, "dessert forks") but many times I've been given a spoon. Is there a "rule" on this? Or just individual preference?

There is, but it's a hardcore rule for formal dining. Fork in the left (as always), spoon in the right. Eat from the spoon, use the fork to push food onto the spoon (avoiding the use of the finger!). I don't see many people get this right, even at formal occassions. Most people seem to just use either the fork or the spoon depending on their mood.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[Hobbesoxon]

This might be a more Euro/Polish thing, but one that I follow.... the unused hand doesn't belong in your lap. Rather, rest that forearm or wrist (not elbow) against the table gently (unless the chair has arms).

Sounds a bit crazy. Do whatever you want with that spare arm - it's dinner, not an iron maiden. :)


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[RichGem]

Sounds a bit crazy. Do whatever you want with that spare arm - it's dinner, not an iron maiden. :)


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

The way it was explained to me (by an older Polish lady) was that the "arm in the lap" is considered as bordering on obscene. Since having heard that explanation, the odd thing is, that it now bothers me to see people do that. Maybe it's just a Polish thing.

[sol92258]

Don't talk with food in your mouth...


:confused:
why, surely you mean "Do not masticate with an agape oral cavity"?

and I never heard of the "don't salt/pepper the food until trying it" thing until last year, someone was telling me about a local company that when doing interviews over meals, they watch this, and if you salt/pepper before trying the food, interview is over, they leave immediately...some crap about saying you have pre-judgemental or something...kinda ironic, if you've been to the place before and know you need it, but alas....

[TimmyBoston]

Sorry, all. I should have specified that these are American table manners. Table manners in the UK, Europe, and in other countries are quite different. Even still, most of these points are not strict rules, but generalizations and/or suggestions. Please take the post with a grain of salt. :biggrin: (No pun intended, I swear). Thank you all for your contributions to this thread.

Also, I forgot to add a small statement to the passing 'rule'. Typically, you pass to the right. However, you never want to send anything in the direction opposite to the direction everything else is passed in (yes, it's a silly rule, but usually only used in more formal settings).

I'm sure I've missed a lot of things/mis-stated some things or just wrote in a confusing manner. Please draw my attention to them. Constructive criticism will only make this 'guide' better.

Thanks, B&B!

No need to apologize. You did an excellent job.

[Hoos]

Never point out another person's lack of manners.

Unless said person is your child, under 18, and done quietly.

[castlecraver]

So help me out here: why can you one moment say this with regards to passing to the right (which I completely agree with)



While it's exceedingly important to exhibit good manners, we have to be careful that we're not learning pointless rules that have no basis in utility.

But then...


[setting down one's knife] may be acceptable in American society, but only children and oafs (no offense, but it is honestly considered oafish) eat that way in Europe. Always hold your fork in your left, and your knife in your right. No exceptions.

Isn't that also a pointless rule that has no basis in utility? I certainly understand that it is custom and might be good for appearances, but one might argue that passing to the right is also custom and at least has the utilitarian benefit of all dishes getting passed the same direction.

I'm not sure I can reconcile these two points. :confused:

[DunEdinRanger]

General Etiquette:

Your fork may be held in either hand, but when cutting, the fork goes in the left hand.






Big alarm bells are ringing. This may be acceptable in American society, but only children and oafs (no offense, but it is honestly considered oafish) eat that way in Europe. Always hold your fork in your left, and your knife in your right. No exceptions.
Toodlepip,

Hobbes

Ok, someone please explain this to me. I am righthanded. I find it easier to cut a steak with a knife in my left hand and the fork in the right. It is more efficient - I think Frederick Winslow Taylor would have approved. Why must I cut with my right hand, place the knife down, switch hands or be forced to use a fork in my left? What kind of sadist made up these table manners?!:w00t:

Why do I have to hold the fork in my left hand always?

[DunEdinRanger]

I had to restrain myself from jumping over the table and forking his hands. That wouldn't have been polite of me.
...(with the French thinking we are barbarians, and we thinking the French are nancies). Figuratively speaking, middle-of-the-bell-curve, generalising stuff. :)

You wanted to hand fork him?! If you had missed was there a chance you would have ended up forking yourself? Maybe it is best if we just avoid talk of forking in public?:tongue_sm


My wife tells a story of her visit to England 20-odd years ago. She saw a television commercial there for Pizza Hut (I think) and the ad made fun of us American barbarians for picking up pizza and eating it with our hands as opposed to the civilized practice of using a knife and fork.

They looked at me strangely in New England when I asked what the utensils were for in eating pizza.


I think all of us Americans will agree... knife and fork + pizza = sooo wrong. Now, whether you fold it in half (long ways) or not before cramming it into your mouth, is up for debate.

No, it's not. You MUST fold it lengthwise. I think it's a law. :biggrin:

[Btheis]

I am getting a good laugh out of all this proper eating talk and people throwing the punch in the face in there.....

What part of table manners was that in.. LOL

[MotoMike]

:confused:
why, surely you mean "Do not masticate with an agape oral cavity"?

and I never heard of the "don't salt/pepper the food until trying it" thing until last year, someone was telling me about a local company that when doing interviews over meals, they watch this, and if you salt/pepper before trying the food, interview is over, they leave immediately...some crap about saying you have pre-judgemental or something...kinda ironic, if you've been to the place before and know you need it, but alas....

Admiral Hyman Rickover, known as the father of the nuclear submarine. I had heard and perhaps a bubble head submariner can confirm, that in the early Nuc program that Rickover disqualified a candidate from the program for salting his eggs before he tried them. The lesson being that you don't do anything out of habit, you do it because it needs to be done. Worried, the story goes that you would treat your reactor that way and have a bad result.

[DunEdinRanger]

Admiral Hyman Rickover, known as the father of the nuclear submarine. I had heard and perhaps a bubble head submariner can confirm, that in the early Nuc program that Rickover disqualified a candidate from the program for salting his eggs before he tried them. The lesson being that you don't do anything out of habit, you do it because it needs to be done. Worried, the story goes that you would treat your reactor that way and have a bad result.

Probably true given Rickover's temperament. Even more - you don't do something without investigating first, or because you expected it to be a certain way.

Remember there are two kinds of ships, Submarines and Targets. :biggrin:

[Not A Nice Person]

This is a great thread! :lol:

I was raised with family dinners and table manners, and habitually keep to the little niceties, like breaking off chunks of bread and buttering them individually, and keeping my fork in my left hand when cutting and eating steak, instead of the dreadful American "switcheroo" . . . but I refuse to hold my fork upside down.

That's just SILLY. Why fight gravity and physics at the table by trying to balance things on a convex surface?

NANP™

[Hobbesoxon]

So help me out here: why can you one moment say this with regards to passing to the right (which I completely agree with)



But then...



Isn't that also a pointless rule that has no basis in utility? I certainly understand that it is custom and might be good for appearances, but one might argue that passing to the right is also custom and at least has the utilitarian benefit of all dishes getting passed the same direction.

I'm not sure I can reconcile these two points. :confused:

I think Debrett's tells us, unsurprisingly, that if it's more comfortable for you to eat with your fork in the right and your knife in the left, then go for it. No butler in the land would punch you in the face for swapping the hands over. Most would punch you in the face if you attempted to shovel your food into your mouth using just a fork, though, as if it were a little trowel. Being punched in the face is absolutely no fun.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[Hobbesoxon]

Why must I cut with my right hand, place the knife down, switch hands or be forced to use a fork in my left? What kind of sadist made up these table manners?!:w00t:

Why do I have to hold the fork in my left hand always?

Well, traditionally, most children who were left-handed were "reprogrammed" at school to use the "correct" hand (their right). That died out after World War 2 as far as I know, so no-one really minds if you swap hands these days.

Interestingly enough, schools in Mainland China still "correct" left-handed children, forcing them to write with their right hands. My wife was born left-handed, but is now ambidextrous thanks to the Mainland Chinese educational system (as the English used to be).


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[Hobbesoxon]

I was raised with family dinners and table manners, and habitually keep to the little niceties, like breaking off chunks of bread and buttering them individually, and keeping my fork in my left hand when cutting and eating steak, instead of the dreadful American "switcheroo" . . . but I refuse to hold my fork upside down.

That's just SILLY. Why fight gravity and physics at the table by trying to balance things on a convex surface?

This is the traditional joke regarding table manners, and its unsurprising to see it dominate the discussion here at B&B. It's a right pain to try and balance peas on the back of your fork, no one in the world is going to disagree with you on that, and it's one of the few guidelines of etiquette that most people chuckle over.

To understand why it comes about, consider the alternative. You flip your fork over, so that it looks like a little builder's instrument, and proceed to shovel the food into the mouth. The elbow necessarily sticks out. You probably stoop to meet the shovel. It's all very inelegant, and I would hazard a guess that is why forks are traditionally used tines-down (convex surface upwards). The conceit is to pluck delicately at one's food, rather than manually scoop it.

If that doesn't work for you, don't bother with it. I'm sure no one will bat an eyelid.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

P.s. Most polite people understand the silliness of trying to eat one's peas the "proper" way, and will try to make you feel at ease. On a related note, my university entrance interview consisted of having lunch with my professor. Naively, I chose a dish that had peas in it. We were talking away, and he was watching me trying to balance my peas on the back of my fork like a well-trained but ultimately hopeless buffoon. He grinned and said under his breath, conspiratorially, "You don't have to finish the peas." That's my definition of good table manner. :)

[Eagle]

Dom you did a great job. Well written and informative. I was brought up in a family who ate meals together at the table and manners were expected, but nothing over the top was pushed. Were I a head of state or a captain of industry and had to adhere to strict meal etiquette in order to conduct business this would all mean something to me.

As it is, I'll be completely blunt and show myself to be the oafish, boorish colonial that I am. I live in AZ where it's hot as blazes. When I get home I strip down to shorts and nothing else. Yes, I eat shirtless at home :eek:. It does not matter if I eat on fine china or paper plates. I don't give a rip which way food is passed nor which utensil gets used nor in which hand they are held. Set your glass where ever it's comfortable for you. I don't care if you cut all your food at once or do it over time and it does not matter where you put the dormant utensil when not in use. If a certain format works better for lefties then have at it. And just you try eating fried chicken or BBQ ribs without your elbows firmly on the table...plant them and dig in I say. I add salt and pepper to darn near everything and if some prospective employer would refuse to hire me over that, it's not somebody I'd want to work for anyway. If they are this anal over something so banal, how much worse is their potential? While I would not encourage the practice, I have been known to let the odd belch sqeak out. And after five years aboard ship I have the art of wolfing down a meal in record time down pat if need be.

The aforementioned all occurs within the confines of my home when no guests are present. When eating out or if company is over then of course I'm fully dressed, adhering to basic civilility and manners. Anything more is just made up rules to satisfy some mythical code of conduct. This is strictly my opinion, and I hold no bias or ill will towards anyone who wishes to observe all these rules. I simply feel my energies are better focused on loving my wife and kids and making the most of the time we have together.

I'm just a hayseed, hick, countryboy, with a good sense of humor. Love me as I am. :biggrin:

[Hobbesoxon]

I totally agree, everything has to have its place. Much of the above (and certainly the topics I've been mentioning) is really formal dining etiquette. This isn't at-home or with-friends behaviour, but more "High Table" stuff.

A true gentlemen "appears well in all company", as one of your chaps once put it so well...


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[sol92258]

Dom you did a great job. Well written and informative. I was brought up in a family who ate meals together at the table and manners were expected, but nothing over the top was pushed. Were I a head of state or a captain of industry and had to adhere to strict meal etiquette in order to conduct business this would all mean something to me.

As it is, I'll be completely blunt and show myself to be the oafish, boorish colonial that I am. I live in AZ where it's hot as blazes. When I get home I strip down to shorts and nothing else. Yes, I eat shirtless at home :eek:. It does not matter if I eat on fine china or paper plates. I don't give a rip which way food is passed nor which utensil gets used nor in which hand they are held. Set your glass where ever it's comfortable for you. I don't care if you cut all your food at once or do it over time and it does not matter where you put the dormant utensil when not in use. If a certain format works better for lefties then have at it. And just you try eating fried chicken or BBQ ribs without your elbows firmly on the table...plant them and dig in I say. I add salt and pepper to darn near everything and if some prospective employer would refuse to hire me over that, it's not somebody I'd want to work for anyway. If they are this anal over something so banal, how much worse is their potential? While I would not encourage the practice, I have been known to let the odd belch sqeak out. And after five years aboard ship I have the art of wolfing down a meal in record time down pat if need be.

The aforementioned all occurs within the confines of my home when no guests are present. When eating out or if company is over then of course I'm fully dressed, adhering to basic civilility and manners. Anything more is just made up rules to satisfy some mythical code of conduct. This is strictly my opinion, and I hold no bias or ill will towards anyone who wishes to observe all these rules. I simply feel my energies are better focused on loving my wife and kids and making the most of the time we have together.

I'm just a hayseed, hick, countryboy, with a good sense of humor. Love me as I am. :biggrin:

+ 00.947264374621...
...I still wear a shirt to the table :biggrin:

I think many people will see that the point of the article is formal/dining out etiquette, not personal home meals. I will assert that most of the basic rules I adhere to, but only the pragmatic ones that would otherwise be rude. I will also note that if you ever eat with me, I may from time to time have to chew masticate with my mouth open, due to horrible sinuses....nevermind that I'm finishing my whopper with my 2nd bite...:biggrin: (just kidding)

great writeup, Dom, excellent reminders, and it's very interesting to hear about some of the customs from other part of the planet

[MotoMike]

Remember there are two kinds of ships, Submarines and Targets. :biggrin:

touché :prrr:

[castlecraver]

Most would punch you in the face if you attempted to shovel your food into your mouth using just a fork, though, as if it were a little trowel. Being punched in the face is absolutely no fun.


Hm. Perhaps if Europeans are so inclined to punch diners in the face for no good reason, I need to reconsider my vacation plans. I much prefer your less violent habit of "because we say so" chiding. :wink:

[180gVinyl]

For right handers

Knife - right
Fork - left


The fork holds the meat

The knife cuts it


Just like "Carousel"


It's the only way :biggrin:

[apswartz]

Has anybody mentioned....
Don't blow your nose at the table!

[Isaias]

Sorry, all. I should have specified that these are American table manners. Table manners in the UK, Europe, and in other countries are quite different. Even still, most of these points are not strict rules, but generalizations and/or suggestions. Please take the post with a grain of salt. :biggrin: (No pun intended, I swear). Thank you all for your contributions to this thread.

Also, I forgot to add a small statement to the passing 'rule'. Typically, you pass to the right. However, you never want to send anything in the direction opposite to the direction everything else is passed in (yes, it's a silly rule, but usually only used in more formal settings).

I'm sure I've missed a lot of things/mis-stated some things or just wrote in a confusing manner. Please draw my attention to them. Constructive criticism will only make this 'guide' better.

Thanks, B&B!:mad1::spockflam :incazzato :prrr: :mad5::mad2::em1500::9898: :18::cursing::mad::angry::sneaky2::a31::a41: :a13::a33::a52::taz::gun_bandana::2guns: :censored::censored::censored::dots:
:sod: :sod: :sod: :sod: :sod:


I wrote this long post about cultural differences, how to use dessert fork and spoon; where to place fork and knife on the plate when you are done, when you want to pause to do something else, how this varies from culture to culture and why you pass something to the right. I click Submit Reply and !"#$%$% web page just disappears...:mad:

I am not writing all that again.
Just remember to display effortless elegance. IMO, If you can be discrete, clean, considerate and respectful to others, do whatever you are comfortable doing. If you are a lefty and you want to hold your fork with your right hand and the knife with your left hand... who cares?! and if you do care if someone else does this, you have some serious problems man.

Thanks for your list burningdarkness.

[blades]

Has anybody mentioned....
Don't blow your nose at the table!
Yep, its a disgusting habit.
In Japan its totally taboo to blow one's nose in public let alone at the dinner table, however, its socially aceptable to snort the stuff with the disgusting sounds that accompany such a action.
They also slurp anything noodle like as the air being drawn into the mouth stimulates the smell senses, this is to improve the flavour of the food, couldn't bring myself to do it but got used to the sound whenever I dined out in Tokyo.

[Isaias]

I was going to say to ladies about table manners...
Do not apply lipstick while you are at the table. Excuse your self and go to the bathroom...
but since this is a gentelmant forum...
Do not apply lipstick.
Ever.
Please.

[Carlin]

bump

[Stubblefield]

I'm an American and I always eat that way. I'm right handed, but apparently it's uncommon enough here in the States that when eating out with acquaintances I am routinely asked if I'm left handed because my fork never leaves my left hand.And I'm left-handed and same thing, holding my fork in my right hand. :biggrin:

[tsmba]

I had table manners drilled into me when I was a kid, thankfully. Whenever I eat out, its so easy to see how many were not so fortunate. Cracker Barrel is a good place to people-watch....and the folks who walk in with hats on their heads, cell phones ringing (if not already in use).....etc., etc. Sometimes I feel old-fashioned, maybe its just no longer important. Its a shame!

[Carlin]

I had table manners drilled into me when I was a kid, thankfully. Whenever I eat out, its so easy to see how many were not so fortunate. Cracker Barrel is a good place to people-watch....and the folks who walk in with hats on their heads, cell phones ringing (if not already in use).....etc., etc. Sometimes I feel old-fashioned, maybe its just no longer important. Its a shame!

I've only been to cracker barrel once and thats why I don't go back again.

[tsmba]

I couldn't do half of what the average clod does at Cracker Barrel. I simply envision my grandmother swooping down from Heaven to knock my elbow off the table, yell at me about taking off the hat, etc. and I'm cured.
Call me old-fashioned, but when I walk by some clod who is laying on the table, shoveling in food with his(her) hat on, cell-phone in hand, I get the willies!

[ClubmanRob]

Last year, I had an American to visit for business. He was a nice guy. We went to a great local restaurant, because he was paying (heh), so we picked a really good venue (The Old Parsonage, if you know Oxford). He didn't turn off his 'phone, and kept answering it. OK, I can deal with that. It happens.

Then he started tapping away on his laptop.

I had to restrain myself from jumping over the table and forking his hands. That wouldn't have been polite of me.


Please don't think this is typical of American dining etiquette. This would have been considered rude here as well, except possibly at a casual business lunch.



Oh yes. The knife is your little controlling instrument, with which you elegantly load your fork. Without it, you are pushing food around your plate like a 3-year-old. :)




What was that about redundant dining habits that don't have a basis in utility? This would be one of them. :biggrin: I also only ever hold my fork in my right hand. Why then, when the majority of us are right handed (I'm ambidextrous, so I have no "dog in the fight" so to speak) is it considered proper etiquette to use the hand more likely to make a mess in your plate? Strange custom, one that most Americans don't follow.

One that I could never understand was when all of the diners stand up while someone excuses themselves from the table. I refuse to do this, no matter who I am dining with (unless my seating is preventing them from exiting the table). I'm happy to see that I am not alone in this either. One day, this strange and useless function shall be eliminated. :lol:

[Wendy]

I may have to make my husband read this thread. He has the WORST table manners in town. My 3 yr old tells him what he is doing wrong at the table at least 3-5 times per meal. I want to shake him and remind him that he is 37 not 7. :mad:

[RichGem]

I may have to make my husband read this thread. He has the WORST table manners in town. My 3 yr old tells him what he is doing wrong at the table at least 3-5 times per meal. I want to shake him and remind him that he is 37 not 7. :mad:

ditto for my 8-yr-old nephew. I'd be happy, nay more than thrilled, if he'd just keep his mouth (lips) closed while chewing and not talk with food in his mouth. Even his 4 yr old sister corrects him. (She, naturally, eats like a perfect princess.)

[Sue]

I never went to lunch again with a friend who talked with food in her mouth and chewed with her mouth open. YUK!!!

Hats bug me. Sitting at a picnic table outside doesn't bother me but indoors in a restaurant or home looks like a moron.
Sue

[RazorDingo]

People chewing with their mouth open is the most offensive thing I see on a regular basis.

On more than one occasion, I've noticed an otherwise quite attractive woman eating at a restaurant, and had the entire impression ruined when I was treated to the sight of her chomping away on her half-masticated food.

The whole fork-in-the-left vs. right thing is sorta silly and dated. Nowadays I'm plesantly surprised to see most people using any utensil at, and that goes for chocolate pudding and vicheysoisse too.

At a nice restaurant, gentlemen really ought to remove their hats (strange how they are always baseball caps when they don't) before sitting down.

If you are travelling to Japan or some other country where they have different customs - its generally a good idea to read up on them beforehand.

[TonyH]

Never rub another man's rhubarb.

[Wendy]

Hats bug me. Sitting at a picnic table outside doesn't bother me but indoors in a restaurant or home looks like a moron.
Sue


Once again talking about my husband. :w00t:

[RichGem]

Once again talking about my husband. :w00t:


Soooo... lotsa family therapy happening around here today? :lol:

[Wendy]

Soooo... lotsa family therapy happening around here today? :lol:

You do not know the half of it : ) LOL She is going to help me bury him later and come up with a good alibi. :biggrin:

[RichGem]

You do not know the half of it : ) LOL She is going to help me bury him later and come up with a good alibi. :biggrin:

oh just great. and thanks for making me an accomplice before the fact.

:eek:

:wink:

[SRock]

I'm an American and I always eat that way. I'm right handed, but apparently it's uncommon enough here in the States that when eating out with acquaintances I am routinely asked if I'm left handed because my fork never leaves my left hand.

+1 If I'm using a knife my fork never leaves my left hand.


No need to apologize. You did an excellent job.

+1


I was going to say to ladies about table manners...
Do not apply lipstick while you are at the table. Excuse your self and go to the bathroom...
but since this is a gentelmant forum...
Do not apply lipstick.
Ever.
Please.

:lol:


I never went to lunch again with a friend who talked with food in her mouth and chewed with her mouth open. YUK!!!

Hats bug me. Sitting at a picnic table outside doesn't bother me but indoors in a restaurant or home looks like a moron.
Sue

A gentleman removes a hat indoors. Obviously in his own home there are exceptions, but if I'm a guest in your house the hat comes off as I cross the threshold. This would never be an issue at the dinner table.

[dwnwrdishvnwrd]

I live in AZ where it's hot as blazes.
I'll second that. :mad:

When I get home I strip down to shorts and nothing else.
It's an AZ tradition.

And after five years aboard ship I have the art of wolfing down a meal in record time down pat if need be.
I'm not on ship but I understand the need to expedite said meal into the stomach. :biggrin:

I'm just a hayseed, hick, countryboy, with a good sense of humor. Love me as I am. :biggrin:
I remember when Buckeye was the place to go to throw parties in high school because of all the open land. I grew up in Waddell. Living in the sticks was the way to go!

[tsmba]

I hope I'm not the only one who detests cell-phone use in restaurants. I dislike hearing them ring, especially little tunes. Who wants to try eating while someone chatters away at the table?

[RichGem]

I hope I'm not the only one who detests cell-phone use in restaurants. I dislike hearing them ring, especially little tunes. Who wants to try eating while someone chatters away at the table?

even worse: when you're at the same table with that clod.

[Sue]

Carrying on a conversation at the table in a restuarant is pretty rude. I occassionally hear them ring during church service, even worse.
Sue

[SRock]

Carrying on a conversation at the table in a restuarant is pretty rude. I occassionally hear them ring during church service, even worse.
Sue

+1 I was at a service at my wifes church when that happened. The Pastor said, "Son, you better hope that's God calling."

[Tolduonce]

I've always taken issue with leaving the napkin on the chair when excusing myself from the table. The notion of having to later use it to wipe food from mouth is just a bit hard to stomach.

[Sue]

+1 I was at a service at my wifes church when that happened. The Pastor said, "Son, you better hope that's God calling."

Good one! :biggrin:

Sue

[Sue]

I've always taken issue with leaving the napkin on the chair when excusing myself from the table. The notion of having to later use it to wipe food from mouth is just a bit hard to stomach.


Never thought about that one before....that's pretty cruddy. Now I'm going to think of your post anytime this happens.

Thanks for ruining my dinner! :w00t:
Sue

[Alacrity59]

I don't think anybody has mentioned it, and my apologies if it has been covered. . . It is traditional to pass port to the port (left).

[RichGem]

I don't think anybody has mentioned it, and my apologies if it has been covered. . . It is traditional to pass port to the port (left).


I thought it's considered improper to pour alcohol for oneself, anyhow. Therefore, no bottle passing.

[Houndawg]

I only eat peas of the dark variety (field, crowder, purple hull, etc.) and they are eaten with a spoon. Green peas should be eradicated from the planet.

Pizza should only be cut in squares unless it is of the deep dish variety. It should never be folded.

I believe in table manners, but anyone who punches me in the face while I'm trying to eat is going to get his neck snapped.

Hats come off in the chow hall, indoors or out. The only exception is in a combat zone.

Chewing with the mouth open or smacking food deserves both a face punch and a neck snapping. One of my biggest pet peeves.

[tsmba]

I wish there were more of you guys around! A trip to almost any local eatery is enough to make me wonder if manners have become obsolete. Even semi-"nice" places like Longhorn, Red Lobster, or Outback are filled with the same breed of clod: sitting at the table with a feed-store hat on their noggin, blabbing on the phone, as they lay upon the table shoveling in whatever is in front of them.....they're everywhere!

[ClubmanRob]

even worse: when you're at the same table with that clod.

Even worse: when that clod is you and you don't realize that what you're doing is terribly rude.

Even worse than that: when, after being explained WHY your actions are rude, you look at everyone like they're crazy and tell them that "this ain't England!"

[Carlin]

Never rub another man's rhubarb.

I would hope no one would rub my rhubard! :w00t:

[Echo]

Here's another thing no one has brought up - how to use a knife when cutting food.

A knife should be held with the blade pointed upward in your hand. You should be cutting meat like you're making an incision.

A lot of times I see people who use a knife with the blade pointed downward in their hand. It's like they're stabbing the meat and trying to rip and pull it apart, rather than cutting it.

[Macion grey]

Manners are nothing more than making your fellow man feel at ease, and show that you consider him.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes


End of story.

[mmack66]

Here's another thing no one has brought up - how to use a knife when cutting food.

A knife should be held with the blade pointed upward in your hand. You should be cutting meat like you're making an incision.

A lot of times I see people who use a knife with the blade pointed downward in their hand. It's like they're stabbing the meat and trying to rip and pull it apart, rather than cutting it.

I can't even visualize what you are saying here. :confused:

[ouch]

Always say "may I" and "please".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzVHR21iExI

[Euclid]

A small piece of etiquette i feel has been left out.

I have been taught that during a business, formal, when escorting a lady, or anything that isn't hitting a dive with buddies, if you do happen to finish your meal before the rest of your party a polite way to indicate this is to finish using your napkin to clean any crumbs or sauce from your mouth and then place it on your plate over the used utensils.
I have been using this for a few years now it seems to work as an unobtrusive manner, has yet to interrupt the flow of conversation or cause anyone to feel they must rush while letting them know you are done. Ordering coffee or tea after this works too as you are still consuming something, while refraining from impolitely overeating.

If anyone has any feelings on this that it may be impolite or unnecessary ill would appreciate the input.

[Alacrity59]

I thought it's considered improper to pour alcohol for oneself, anyhow. Therefore, no bottle passing.

For port the head of the table pours for the person on his right, for himself, and then passes left.

[Fraser]

Why is it rude to cut your food with your left hand?

[Doc4]

The upside-down-fork-pea-eating solution:

Cook some peas at home. Serve yourself some. Eat them with your fork, upside down, as you are supposed to. Notice how you drop a few; observe how slowly you get them to your mouth; reflect on how few you lift to your mouth on each try.

Now, put the fork down, and pick up your knife and spoon. Put some peas into your spoon ... but no more than you could load onto the backside of your fork. Lift the peas to your mouth, but no faster than with the upside down fork. (Haven't spilled any, have you? Haven't looked like a human vacuum cleaner set on "peas", have you?) Eat them that way forever more. If some Eurofool wants to punch you in the face for it, well, y'all got a knife in the other hand, right? :001_cool:




In high-end restaurants, never, ever add anything to a meal that has been prepared by a chef. This is insulting to the chef. If you’re really set on adding something (such as salt, pepper, etc.), taste what you were given first before doing so. What I’m really trying to get at here is that you should trust the seasonings used by the chef. (If you go to a hamburger joint, it’s perfectly fine to put ketchup on your burger).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MixYRIUzVXs

[Doc4]

Why is it rude to cut your food with your left hand?

Cut it with a knife and fork, not your hand. :blink:

[PeterFrancis]

When eating meat and other foods that need to be sliced before consumption only slice a couple of pieces at a time. Do not cut up the entire slab of steak before eating from it.

This one made me stop dead while reading.

You don't "only slice a couple pieces at a time," you cut one piece, eat it, and then cut another. Am I the only one who thinks it's rather childish to cut more than one piece at a time?

[Abdiel]

This one made me stop dead while reading.

You don't "only slice a couple pieces at a time," you cut one piece, eat it, and then cut another. Am I the only one who thinks it's rather childish to cut more than one piece at a time?

While the number of pieces cut and ready to be eaten should be minimized, so long as you limit yourself to 2-3 pieces I'd say no harm whatsoever.

It is more polite to cut two or three bite sized pieces then it is to spend excessive time positioning and dissecting a piece of meat so that you can cut off one bite sized piece or shoveling a large piece of meat into your mouth.

[Snood]

I'd like to think I've been brought up to use good table manners, although of course, at home i don't behave as if i'm in company however i do conciously switch to "propper" manners whenever i'm eating with friends etc.

One point that my grandma always insisted upon was not to dunk the accompanying bread into soup. breaking or cutting pieces off and placing them IN the soup to then be fished out with a spoon is however acceptable (taking from the back of the bowl of course). Can anyone confirm or deny this as standard table manners or is my grandma a little misguided?

I was horrified when i first came to Sweden. bread as an accompaniment is just placed on the table, to either side of the plate, even in company. Breakfast is often just bread and cheese, no plates visible! I still find it strange but have adopted to these practices when in Sweden.

[LegalEagle143]

This entire thread was insanely interesting. Thank you all for the reminders and lessons!

[Hansel]

With most of the original post, I give it a hearty "Damn Skippy!"

The part about spooning soup away from yourself is something that I personally despise and can never do. Then again, maybe it's because I'm a lefty. :tongue_sm


General Etiquette:

Your fork may be held in either hand, but when cutting, the fork goes in the left hand. The blade of your knife should be placed on the edge of your plate when you aren’t using it (with the sharp part facing the inside of the plate).

This part...Bah! I've always eaten "European Style" despite having been in the US all of my life. Fork in left hand, knife in right. The odd thing is that despite this STILL being considered proper table manners, I've been given some rather harsh looks (And even been called out on it once!) at a few formal events for eating that way!

[Will P.C.]

At about age 21 or slightly before you should be able to feel out the situation to see what needs to be done. However, you should be prepared with all the knowledge mentioned in this thread

[CEFranklin]

This is so, so true. Never have this discussion with anyone outside B&B unless it's a mutual fun thing. Lecturing someone on their bad manners in The Real World is hideously bourgeois. I haven't ever seen it happen yet, but I'm waiting...

Oh, I have had to do this. My friend was over having dinner and he has a bad habit of chewing with his mouth open making that "smacking" sound. I had to say something right then and there :tongue_sm Nothing gets me angrier!

[SUOrangeGuy]

Is it ok to cut something on you plate with the side of your fork?

[Laz]

The upside-down-fork-pea-eating solution:

Cook some peas at home. Serve yourself some. Eat them with your fork, upside down, as you are supposed to. Notice how you drop a few; observe how slowly you get them to your mouth; reflect on how few you lift to your mouth on each try.

Now, put the fork down, and pick up your knife and spoon. Put some peas into your spoon ... but no more than you could load onto the backside of your fork. Lift the peas to your mouth, but no faster than with the upside down fork. (Haven't spilled any, have you? Haven't looked like a human vacuum cleaner set on "peas", have you?) Eat them that way forever more. If some Eurofool wants to punch you in the face for it, well, y'all got a knife in the other hand, right? :001_cool:




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MixYRIUzVXs

This has been a great/fun thread to read through. I enjoyed the video and found it amusing to note that the man wanting salt used his right hand to hold the fork and taste it (about 2:13 into the video).

[rummwa]

It amazes me when we go out to eat how many elbows you see on the tables.

[ouch]

This one made me stop dead while reading.

You don't "only slice a couple pieces at a time," you cut one piece, eat it, and then cut another. Am I the only one who thinks it's rather childish to cut more than one piece at a time?


While the number of pieces cut and ready to be eaten should be minimized, so long as you limit yourself to 2-3 pieces I'd say no harm whatsoever.

It is more polite to cut two or three bite sized pieces then it is to spend excessive time positioning and dissecting a piece of meat so that you can cut off one bite sized piece or shoveling a large piece of meat into your mouth.

I'm so polite, I only cut a half a piece at a time.

[trewornan]

For some reason I just immediately thought of Springs1 - http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=46509&highlight=restaurant+service

[Wendy]

It amazes me when we go out to eat how many elbows you see on the tables.

My 4 year old tells me when we are out "that man (or lady) has their elbows on the table". I feel the urge to shush her up but I do not. I kind of get a chuckle out of it especially when they hear her :thumbup:

[Doc4]

I'm so polite, ...
:lol:

My 4 year old tells me when we are out "that man (or lady) has their elbows on the table". I feel the urge to shush her up but I do not. I kind of get a chuckle out of it especially when they hear her :thumbup:

If I get the opportunity to be reincarnated, I want to come back as a perpetually-three-year-old boy, who can loudly ask all those questions in perpetuity.
"Mommy, the sign says 12 items but that lady has 18! I can count to 18!!"
"Daddy, why does that man get to wear his hat at the dinner table?"

:sneaky2:

[Gray Wolf]

I do appreciate this thread, now I have the manners to eat in the company of civilized people-if I ever find some!

[Wendy]

I do appreciate this thread, now I have the manners to eat in the company of civilized people-if I ever find some!

:lol::lol::lol: I feel the same way.

[Doc4]

I do appreciate this thread, now I have the manners to eat in the company of civilized people-if I ever find some!

You're talking to them right now!

[trewornan]

Try to remember that what you're calling good manners are simply conventions about behaviour and have no objective basis. At various times in various cultures even such things as spitting and belching were normal or occasionally expected.

True good manners are not about arbitrary conventions, *true* good manners are about making other people feel comfortable and treating them with respect.

If I'm eating out at a restaurant for example then I keep my elbows off the table because there are likely to be people around who will be uncomfortable with that, so I'm happy to follow these social mores.

It's unfortunate that some people will happily allow their child to make other people uncomfortable - to my mind that's *truly* bad manners.

[Triumph Coupe]

For port the head of the table pours for the person on his right, for himself, and then passes left.

This is not entirely correct.

There are a number of rules of etiquette for port which should be followed. They are not difficult rules to follow but add a sense of occasion to drinking port.

1. The port decanter starts with the host who pours for the person on his/her right. He/she will then pass the port to the person on his/her left, who in turn pours for the person on their right (the host). This continues until the whole table has been served.
2. If someone desires more port is is extremely bad manners to openly ask for the port. instead one should ask the person nearest the decanter whether they know the Bishop of Norwich. This signal does not require an answer but should just result in the decanter being passed, leftwards, to the person desiring more port. If the person being asked the question does not understand the signal and replies "no, I don't" or some other such response then your response should be "The bishop is a thoroughly decent chap, but he never passes the port!". This can be said in a slightly scornful manner.
3. Should you be in company of the Bishop of Norwich himself, or perhaps people who do know him a different signal should be decided upon.

As far as peas go:

I eat my peas with honey,
I've done it all my life.
It makes them taste quite funny,
But it keeps them on my knife.

"shovelling" food should never be done. Food should always be balanced on the back of it. Peas really are not that difficult, just put them on top if a bit of meat of potato or something. I've never struggled with peas.

Another thing I think is worth mentioning that a knife should be held correctly with the handle in the palm of the hand. They should NEVER be help like a pencil! As our learned friend in Oxford has already explained, such behaviour in polite circles is likely to be responded to by a punch in the face.

[Alacrity59]

This is not entirely correct.

There are a number of rules of etiquette for port which should be followed. They are not difficult rules to follow but add a sense of occasion to drinking port.

1. The port decanter starts with the host who pours for the person on his/her right. He/she will then pass the port to the person on his/her left, who in turn pours for the person on their right (the host). This continues until the whole table has been served.
2. If someone desires more port is is extremely bad manners to openly ask for the port. instead one should ask the person nearest the decanter whether they know the Bishop of Norwich. This signal does not require an answer but should just result in the decanter being passed, leftwards, to the person desiring more port. If the person being asked the question does not understand the signal and replies "no, I don't" or some other such response then your response should be "The bishop is a thoroughly decent chap, but he never passes the port!". This can be said in a slightly scornful manner.
3. Should you be in company of the Bishop of Norwich himself, or perhaps people who do know him a different signal should be decided upon.

Aface.

I'm OK with this too. Different messes have different arcane practices as well. Some bang down the port after pouring. Some insist that the port never lands on the table until it makes the full round. Some insist that the bottle must be finished. Some insist that the port is not touched until the toast to the Queen. And so on.

[Doc4]

3. Should you be in company of the Bishop of Norwich himself, ...

... one should ensure that he is seated directly to the host's right.

[Mr. Scruffy]

Does anyone here remember National Lampoon's "Politenessman"?

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_ltqKpPPUDJI/RjM-ozt3H8I/AAAAAAAAAkE/n8Pchyxuqu0/Politenessman+World+Series.jpg


http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ltqKpPPUDJI/RjM7sDt3H2I/AAAAAAAAAi8/N_roEPtljRs/Politeness+man+Hispanic+Insurgents+March+1982.jpg

[Doc4]

I am reminded of the Pogo cartoon ... "we have met the enemy, and he is us." :crying:

[Jim B.]

Well, traditionally, most children who were left-handed were "reprogrammed" at school to use the "correct" hand (their right). That died out after World War 2 as far as I know, so no-one really minds if you swap hands these days.

Interestingly enough, schools in Mainland China still "correct" left-handed children, forcing them to write with their right hands. My wife was born left-handed, but is now ambidextrous thanks to the Mainland Chinese educational system (as the English used to be).


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

I joined B&B after this post was started so I'm glad someone recently resurrected it.

The "re-programming" continued through the late 50's, at least in the schools I attended. I'm left-handed but was "encouraged" to write right-handed. So, I now do everything with my left hand, except writing.

Since I eat left-handed, holding the fork in my left hand during a meal is not a problem. In fact, I take great delight in watching right-handers do the fork/knife shuffle during dinner. It gets even better when they follow the rule that they should only cut a bite or two at a time. Lots and lots of shuffling.

[tsutte01]

This thread got me thinking about my eating habits. As a little boy I ate the way most americans eat such as cutting a steak up before eating and using my right hand for the fork. When I was 12 my family spent 3 months in Europe and I adapted the Continental way of eating; fork in the left hand and only cutting 1 piece of meat as I ate. I don't think it was a conscious decision, just something I imitated while there. I've always eaten that way since.

What I wanted to mention was in regards to cutting up the meat. The main reason I do it the "Old World" way is because I found that if I cut up the meat all at once and then proceed to eat the pieces of meat, the food got colder faster. When I cut a piece, eat, cut a piece, eat, I find the food stays hot/warmer longer and I am not having to rush to eat before it got cold. Not sure if this was a practical thing to do that became a part of good dining manners, however it is why I ended up doing so.

My ex-wife would always put the fork on the right and the spoon and knife on the left of the plate and it always drove me nuts. I asked why and she said that's how her grandma always set the table.

[RichGem]

My ex-wife would always put the fork on the right and the spoon and knife on the left of the plate and it always drove me nuts. I asked why and she said that's how her grandma always set the table.

This is apparently also the custom in (Dutch) St. Maarten. It drove me slightly insane.

[Doc4]

This is apparently also the custom in (Dutch) St. Maarten. It drove me slightly insane.

... master of the understatement. :001_rolle

[Houndawg]

This thread got me thinking about my eating habits. As a little boy I ate the way most americans eat such as cutting a steak up before eating and using my right hand for the fork. When I was 12 my family spent 3 months in Europe and I adapted the Continental way of eating; fork in the left hand and only cutting 1 piece of meat as I ate. I don't think it was a conscious decision, just something I imitated while there. I've always eaten that way since.

What I wanted to mention was in regards to cutting up the meat. The main reason I do it the "Old World" way is because I found that if I cut up the meat all at once and then proceed to eat the pieces of meat, the food got colder faster. When I cut a piece, eat, cut a piece, eat, I find the food stays hot/warmer longer and I am not having to rush to eat before it got cold. Not sure if this was a practical thing to do that became a part of good dining manners, however it is why I ended up doing so.

My ex-wife would always put the fork on the right and the spoon and knife on the left of the plate and it always drove me nuts. I asked why and she said that's how her grandma always set the table.

You should never cut up the whole steak before eating. The American way is to cut three pieces. Once those pieces are eaten, then you cut three more.

I have always eaten the European way. One piece at a time and I never switch hands. I've eaten that way all my life and I think it has to do with me being left handed.

[Gaston]

While I cut and eat the meat entree as do the British, it had never occurred to me to keep the fork in the left hand when I put down the knife to eat vegetables. It's a splendid custom, because it frees my right hand to draw my revolver should someone attempt to punch me in the face. :001_tongu

Part of the reason I think that people wear hats and coats at table in places like Cracker Barrel is that there are no proper hatcheck provisions, the tables are tiny and the chairs are apparently rationed, so there is no place for them other than where they were when you entered the door.

[Doc4]

Part of the reason I think that people wear hats and coats at table in places like Cracker Barrel is that there are no proper hatcheck provisions, the tables are tiny and the chairs are apparently rationed, so there is no place for them other than where they were when you entered the door.

And there's nowhere to hitch your horse outside, either. :001_rolle


... well, that's what they'd say. The few people who wear hats there are probably wearing ironic trucker hats or ironic cheap fedoras or what have you, and dont' want to take them off. And they don't wear coats, they wear short jackets, so ... why waste "valuable feeding real-estate" with coat racks and such. You may instert a diatribe about self-fulfilling prophecies here. :001_rolle

[ouch]

When setting a table, where does one place the spitoon?

[tsutte01]

When setting a table, where does one place the spitoon?

No need for a spitoon if you have sawdust on the floor.....:tongue_sm

[Mr. Scruffy]

When setting a table, where does one place the spitoon?

A proper redneck does not use a spitoon when seated at a table. He uses his "Big Gulp" cup from the 7-11 store.

Just don't mistake it for your glass of iced tea. :thumbup1:

[iGadget]

I joined B&B after this post was started so I'm glad someone recently resurrected it.

The "re-programming" continued through the late 50's, at least in the schools I attended. I'm left-handed but was "encouraged" to write right-handed. So, I now do everything with my left hand, except writing.

Since I eat left-handed, holding the fork in my left hand during a meal is not a problem. In fact, I take great delight in watching right-handers do the fork/knife shuffle during dinner. It gets even better when they follow the rule that they should only cut a bite or two at a time. Lots and lots of shuffling.
According to my brother-in-law, the Catholic school nuns in Scotland were still working on the reprogramming of lefties in the late 70s. Additionally, they apparently don't believe in eating with tines down.

[Uncle Erik]

Interesting thread.

Some years back, I had a wonderful Polish girlfriend (man, was she hot, and frighteningly smart, too) who converted me to eating in the Continental style. As a lefty, it came naturally to hold the fork in my left hand and turn it upside down. Since, I've continued to eat in the Continental style.

Funny thing was my niece asked why I held my fork "upside down" a couple of years ago. I told her the story about the nice Polish girl and that this is the proper way Europeans eat. She promptly inverted her fork and has been Continental ever since. I love that kid!

[Gerald_G]

I enjoyed reading this thread. My great grandmother who lived to be 101, and was a wonderful lady told me it was once considered bad manners to tip the bowl to finish the soup, but during the war (WWI - I believe), food was hard enough to come by, that if became acceptable to tip the bowl to completely empty it. I've remembered this tid-bit since childhood.

She also told me, "art is to be looked at, not smelled of", meaning one should appreciate it from a reasonable viewing distance.

Now would someone maybe start a thread on "concert goers manners".
There's much to learn there too I believe.

[echelon3]

One that I could never understand was when all of the diners stand up while someone excuses themselves from the table. I refuse to do this, no matter who I am dining with (unless my seating is preventing them from exiting the table).

One should never rise when someone leaves the table, only upon their return, FWIW.

A woman does not wish attention drawn to the fact that she is leaving to visit the powder room, but she very much appreciates the attention when she returns. Interesting how these things all share a common thread; try to make others comfortable.

[big1096]

It has been far too long since I've visited the website. The last twenty minutes reading this thread reminded me of all the entertainment and information I've been missing. Manners, both table and otherwise, have been seriously lacking in my community. I try to educate my son on such things as my father did with me.

[Rushman2112]

Thai food is only eaten with a spoon and fork (it always makes me laugh when I go to a Thai restaurant in the UK and they have put out chopsticks, and it should be a signal to leave there and then, as it will generally be a bland and disappointing bastardised mix of Thai and Chinese food anyway, but I digress), and the fork should never be put into your mouth. Only the spoon should be used for transferring the food into your mouth.

In Indonesia they use their hands, but of course, only the right hand as the left is used for toilet purposes. I haven't yet mastered the technique of cupping the rice and food between the tips of the fingers and thumb, and end up dribbling food all down me, so the family usually give me a spoon and fork. Mind you, it does taste better using your hands for some reason.

Chopsticks - never point at anyone with them, and never jam them upright into the rice bowl if you need to leave the table.

[Argonaut]

A proper redneck does not use a spitoon when seated at a table. He uses his "Big Gulp" cup from the 7-11 store.

Just don't mistake it for your glass of iced tea. :thumbup1:

The considerate redneck uses one of these,http://www.mudjug.com/realtreecamomudjug-limitedrelease.aspx
No one will notice it hidden amongst the table arrangement.

[The Pontificator]

The Goops


by Gillette Burgess
The Goops they lick their fingers
And the Goops they lick their knives:
They spill their froth on the tablecloth
Oh, they lead disgusting lives!
The Goops they talk while eating,
And loud and fast they chew;
And that is why I'm glad that I
Am not a Goop, are you?

[jkingrph]

INteresting thread.

One thing I am guilty of is wearing my hat at the table. When I first started wearing nicer hats I looked for a place to place them and in most places there is no proper place to put a hat, so out of necessity it stays on my head.