Raw vs. Ripe Pu

[rikrdo]

..............ehr, that is.

Pros and cons and any recommendations, please.
I fear there is trouble ahead.

[R-James]

Very new to this, I have tried 2 sheng and one shu, and so far the shu came out on top for me. I will look up the names when I am next in my study so you can know exactly which ones I had

[Proinsias]

The idea is the ripe stuff is meant to imitate the really old and well aged raw stuff. It's all down to personal taste but in my experience there is an overwhelming amount of cheap nasty ripe pu-erh out there, especially loose. If you're starting out with ripe pu-erh sticking with cakes from the Menghai Dayi factory seems to be a fairly reliable way of getting a decent brew.

As always it's probably best to wait for Hobbes to drop by although his bias for raw might show a little. My friends have taken to calling the ripe stuff my 'mud tea' and there is a 50/50 split between liking it and loathing it. The young raw stuff is definitely an acquired taste. Personally I'd vote for well aged raw stuff, I start to appreciate much more after it's had five years or so on the clock.

[ouch]

Imagine if someone were to come up with a process to artificially age a new bottle of extremely tannic Bordeaux so that it would taste as if it were twenty or more years old, but with the loss of a significant amount of nuance and complexity. People would buy it, but oenophiles would continue to seek out the real thing.

You can't rush mother nature.

Cooked pu'ers (I will henceforth officially adopt the Hobbes spelling) are interesting, but not compelling. They are fun and worth drinking, as I find almost any tea to be, but by all accounts it would appear that raw shengs are the top of the heap.

[Scotto]

I really want to like shupu, but in the end it all tastes lousy to me. I'll stick with sheng.

[merryjoulton]

Imagine if someone were to come up with a process to artificially age a new bottle of extremely tannic Bordeaux so that it would taste as if it were twenty or more years old, but with the loss of a significant amount of nuance and complexity.

You don't have to imagine anymore, its called the clef du vin.

[Suzuki]

Imagine if someone were to come up with a process to artificially age a new bottle of extremely tannic Bordeaux so that it would taste as if it were twenty or more years old, but with the loss of a significant amount of nuance and complexity. People would buy it, but oenophiles would continue to seek out the real thing.

You can't rush mother nature.

Cooked pu'ers (I will henceforth officially adopt the Hobbes spelling) are interesting, but not compelling. They are fun and worth drinking, as I find almost any tea to be, but by all accounts it would appear that raw shengs are the top of the heap.

Bingo.

I'm not a pro/expert, but here's my $0.02.

I'll drink the odd cooked, but won't buy in bulk. They're not bad and the better ones make a pretty thick/soupy brew that has lots of musroomy/earthy flavours. The cheaper stuff smells and tastes like you've scraped up the bottom of a horse stall and brewed it.

In contrast, the raw has much greener, livelier flavours - that I prefer. I have and will continue to buy in bulk as I've become quite an addict.

Its worth trying both to see what you like.

[ouch]

You don't have to imagine anymore, its called the clef du vin.

Thanks. On your recommendation, I went out and purchased one. It said I should drink this one up immediately.
http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=13877
I don't know what I was thinking holding on to that plonk. :tongue_sm

[ouch]

My take on shu is that as a consequence of the fermentation process, much of what would otherwise translate into a nuanced identity from one tea to the next is lost forever. The raw, relatively unprocessed teas should be better able to display variation in leaf quality, blend, and terroir.

[Hobbesoxon]

Full shengpu bias in effect!

I don't mind shupu, though. There are some nice ones - it's a genre of its own. Dark, moody, heavy - shengpu doesn't ever get like that. When old, as you no doubt have found out for yourself, shengpu is more "mahogany bookcase", while shupu is more "damp pages and old leather".

Some people like shupu for the calming after-dinner feel. Maybe that's the theanine. We used to drink it in the evenings, until we realised the caffeine was interferring with our sleep. :)

As far as recommendations go, the undisputed champion of the shupu world is Menghai V93. They invented, they retain all the skills in-house, they are uberlords of shupu, ruling all beneath them with a will of iron.

I don't keep a lot of shupu. It's accelerated, and loses a lot of complexity - but that's down to personal preference. Lots of people like shupu. Shupu is more popular among my Mainland Chinese tea-drinking chums than shengpu. It's easy-going, accessible, it's not going to punish you with brutal bitterness if you get the infusion wrong - it's a casual treat. Buy the V93, and we wary of EVERYTHING else in the world of shupu, until you've got recommendations from hardcore shupu drinkers (i.e., not me). :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

P.s. Standard practice is to apply two rinses of boiling water to shupu, rather than just the one that you would apply to shengpu. The shupu manufacturing process (wodui, wet pile) is rank. It's composting. You need to kill the bacteria afore ye get the worst of it. I have read studies (Art of Tea magazine) describing the amount of bacteria of various types killed by two rinses - 100%.

[R-James]

Now I need the definitive list of say the 1st 5 cakes to buy in sheng, cheap and good, and the first 5 in shu. Its just about cake buying time and I still have no clue!

[Suzuki]

Now I need the definitive list of say the 1st 5 cakes to buy in sheng, cheap and good, and the first 5 in shu. Its just about cake buying time and I still have no clue!

I'm sure Hobbes can provide some suggestions...

Also, if you send Scott at Yunnan Sourcing a note asking for some good price:value teas for someone just getting into pu'erh, he'll give you some good suggestions - that's what I did and was quite pleased.

If you're going to buy a bunch of stuff from Yunnan, Scott's willing to do off e-bay deals that save you some money as he doesn't have to pay the e-bay fees - the only caveat is that you have to pay with paypal.

Scott was great to deal with and I'm definitely going to deal with him again - especially with the local fancypants tea shop selling very average, undated cakes for $75!

[Isaias]

Badgers...
Educate me here, what are you guys talking about?

[rikrdo]

Thanks for all the great info everyone.
I am a lifelong coffee lover and being a midnighter (shift worker) I need caffiene to survive.
Only so much java one can drink so I'm looking for new options.

I have been in contact with Scott from Yunnan Sourcing and he has been very helpful with recommendations.......will probably buy my starter set from him.
The subtleties of most things are lost on me, especially when it comes to beverages.
I smoke pipes and cigars and my palate aint the most refined so some of the more delicate notes from the complex and special teas would go unnoticed.

[ouch]

I smoke pipes and cigars and my palate aint the most refined so some of the more delicate notes from the complex and special teas would go unnoticed.

Here's all you have to know- very few people are able to articulate to a substantial degree the differences between two wines, beers, cigars, teas, coffees, olive oils, or just about anything else. However, almost anyone can have two examples of a product placed before them and quickly decide which is preferable. When the great wine critic Michael Broadbent was asked to recall the last time he had mistaken a Burgundy for a Bordeaux, he responded "Today". Try different things, and you'll see what best suits your taste. Recommendations from folks you trust can be helpful, but if you have success with a particular reviewer's suggestions that doesn't mean that reviewer knows any more than anyone else (this would be especially true if you take any of my suggestions), only that that reviewer's taste most closely mirrors your own, which is a very good starting point.

[Hobbesoxon]

Now I need the definitive list of say the 1st 5 cakes to buy in sheng, cheap and good, and the first 5 in shu. Its just about cake buying time and I still have no clue!

Honestly, if you buy ten cakes now, you're going to regret it in six months. :)

Samples samples samples!

If you're really sure, I think you'd probably like the 2007 Shuangjiang Mengku "Muyechun 001". I have a few. It's generally recognised as being fresh and fun enough for the newcomer, while being complex and meaty enough for the hardened veteran - and it's inexpensive.

Samples samples samples!

I never (well almost never!) buy a cake without trying a sample of it first. It's a mug's game, otherwise. No reputable tea-seller worth his salt will not let you have a sample, unless it's a super-cheap cake. Every cake you buy is committing yourself to drinking THIRTY sessions of the stuff. Be DAMNED sure you're buying the right thing before you part with your cash. :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[R-James]

There is a good point. I emailed yunnan sourcing yesterday and the gent there said if I buy a cake or 2 he will generously load me up with samples gratis to give me a taste of things to come. This has made me reduce myself to getting one or 2 of the 14-15 dollar cakes as a blind buy. It might be living dangerously but I'm just that kind of guy!

[ouch]

Honestly, if you buy ten cakes now, you're going to regret it in six months. :)

Having purchased ten cakes (okay, more than ten) in the last six months (okay, less than three), my only regret is that I didn't buy more. :001_rolle

I'll grant you that if I did it all over again, I'd likely have purchased a significant proportion of different cakes, but I'll eventually wind up getting those anyway.


Samples samples samples!

I thought a cake was a sample. :tongue_sm


Every cake you buy is committing yourself to drinking THIRTY sessions of the stuff. Be DAMNED sure you're buying the right thing before you part with your cash. :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

Let's see..... 357 divided by 30..... carry the five.... holy crap you use a lot of leaf per session. :lol: A more frugal person could get upwards of double that yield.

That is certainly the downside of buying a cake that's a dog, but other than tying up your money in something that displeases you, I don't think it's all that bad. How much trouble would it be for you to try it once a year for the next thirty years? Even if you continue to hate it to the extent that it ruined your session, you could always follow it up with a "better" session. Whenever I try something I don't like, I invariably have to break out something I know I'll enjoy almost immediately thereafter. Who knows? Over the thirty years, the cake may even blossom into something worthwhile, or at least provide some information as to the maturing process. Failing that, after twenty or twenty five years or so, I'm sure that you can recoup your initial loss by selling a sample of it to the curious. :thumbup:



Badger and Blade: now featuring more tea chat than Tea Chat.

[R-James]

Badger and Blade: now featuring more tea chat than Tea Chat.

That is quite true actually, I don't know if hobbes is on teachat, but I feel he is the best tea knowledge base I have discovered thus far!

[TimmyBoston]

Where can one get a basic intro to Pu-ehr? Other than being aged, I don't know the first thing about it? But on the recommendations here, I'm very curious.

[R-James]

www.teachat.com is a good forum to look at tim, and half-dipper.blogspot.com [hobbes' blog] is also a good place to go. Yunnan sourcing on ebay also has some good deals if you send scott a message, he has offered me some good off-ebay deals and samples.

[Hobbesoxon]

I'll grant you that if I did it all over again, I'd likely have purchased a significant proportion of different cakes, but I'll eventually wind up getting those anyway.

That's a good situation to be in, you obviously bought wisely! Some of my first cakes are real stinkers. Bland, rough - what was I thinking? :)


I thought a cake was a sample. :tongue_sm

That's true for me sometimes, but I have to be absolutely certain that the factory is on rock-solid ground. I recently bought a Douji cake without tasting, as samples weren't available, but Douji are usually fairly reliable. Do you have any factories that you would trust without fail? Certainly Mengku, Xiaguan, Shuangjiang Mengku, and Mengyang Guoyan for me would all require samples, simply because their output is so variable.


Let's see..... 357 divided by 30..... carry the five.... holy crap you use a lot of leaf per session. :lol: A more frugal person could get upwards of double that yield.

Yes, that is definitely true - that's 12g of leaf per session. Don't use 12g of leaf per session unless it's your taste to do so! Start out at 5-6 g. Good point!


How much trouble would it be for you to try it once a year for the next thirty years? Even if you continue to hate it to the extent that it ruined your session, you could always follow it up with a "better" session. Whenever I try something I don't like, I invariably have to break out something I know I'll enjoy almost immediately thereafter. Who knows? Over the thirty years, the cake may even blossom into something worthwhile, or at least provide some information as to the maturing process. Failing that, after twenty or twenty five years or so, I'm sure that you can recoup your initial loss by selling a sample of it to the curious. :thumbup:

You're right, it could turn into something fab. I suspect that the duffers I initially bought are just too bland to turn into anything worth having, as they just don't contain enough character to do otherwise. I am looking forward to being proved wrong when these failures all turn into classics in a decade or so!


Where can one get a basic intro to Pu-ehr? Other than being aged, I don't know the first thing about it? But on the recommendations here, I'm very curious.

There are some good sample sets available from Puerh Shop, if you want to dip your toe in the water, and they'd reach you quickly (assuming you're in the US).

Ah, pu'er...

I'm drinking hongcha in my office right now, simply because it's low maintenance. Though it's pleasant (a little "organic" number my wife picked up in Maliandao last year), I keep wishing I was at home, behind the tea-tray, with my favourite little teapot, drinking an awesome shengpu. :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[ouch]

If my knowledge of geography is correct, I believe Tim can walk to Puerhshop. :lol:


I'd be the first to admit that nobody should ever follow my advice, some of which borders on the absurd. I bought a few 6FTM's simply because I heard they were going out of business. I may never open them, but enjoy having them. I think if I keep at least half of my portfolio stocked with proven recipes from well known factories, I can take my chances a bit with the remainder. Man does not live by Xi Zhi Hao and Chen Guang-He Tang alone.

Ultimately, you have to take a chance, and even a rock solid recommendation is no more than "looks good on paper" until you check it for yourself. I recently had my last bottle of 1990 Nicolas Joly Clos de la Coulée de Serrant, which on paper is one of the great white wines of the world. Yuck- completely gone. Yet the only way to know was to drink it.

[Hobbesoxon]

I bought a few 6FTM's simply because I heard they were going out of business. I may never open them, but enjoy having them.

I've had so many 6FTM and they've nearly all been bland and uninteresting - except the 2008 6FTM "Yesheng Banzhang", from Royal Pu'er. Maybe they caught me on a good day, but I thought that they were really very nice. They're so, so inexpensive, too, so I picked up a bunch. Perhaps you'd like them, too.


I think if I keep at least half of my portfolio stocked with proven recipes from well known factories, I can take my chances a bit with the remainder. Man does not live by Xi Zhi Hao and Chen Guang-He Tang alone.

Agreed. Xizihao were awesome up to 2005. 2007 was absolute heresy, where they produced more than 17 different cakes, clearly capitalising on their market position. It's just absurd. Some of the them were nice, but all of them were overpriced, even if you don't buy them from Houde. I have a tong of the 8542, which was a fair price from Scott, but the rest - no way. I have a scattering of cakes, but they're just too darned expensive. Chen Guanghe Tang really gets my goat. So many of his teas are tweaked to oblivion (orange brew). They're good, but also so gratuitously overpriced that I want nothing to do with it. That sort of false economy really doesn't interest me, when the landscape of pu'er is so wide.


Ultimately, you have to take a chance, and even a rock solid recommendation is no more than "looks good on paper" until you check it for yourself.

It's so true. Samples samples samples! Get them from the vendors, get them from your friends. Drink lots and drink often.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[R-James]

2008 12 Gentlemen "Chun Ya Shen Yun"
2008 Youle - Bamboo Wrapped

Are on the way!

I got a sample of the Chun Ya Shen Yun and completely loved it so I have bought up a cake, and as for the bamboo wrapped stuff it was cheap and looked interesting!

[Scotto]

It is like shaving or anything else - the game is to find someone who has similar tastes as your own. Often the "expert" opinion won't match your own preferences. Joel and I both love wetshaving, but what he thinks is great, I think is junk. Similarly, after following Hobbes' blog, I tried a lot of stuff he thought was great and didn't float my boat, and vice-versa. Try before you buy!

[Hobbesoxon]

^ Always do this. No-one can do it for you, ultimately.

I'd love to know how that 2008 12 Gentlemen turns out, do please let us know.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[R-James]

^ Always do this. No-one can do it for you, ultimately.

I'd love to know how that 2008 12 Gentlemen turns out, do please let us know.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes


I most certainly will. from the 3 sessions I have had out of the sample so far, [excuse the newb describing tea] I get a richness, almost nutty, and something that reminds me of farms that I have worked on in the past as an agricultural college student but not in a bad way, earthy and deep.

The tea also has a slight sweetness and not overpowering bitterness in the finish, which fades off eventually into just being a sweet earthy water, which is not at all unpleasant.

One of these days I will be able to describe better than that, but for now it'll do!

[Hobbesoxon]

"Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind" - something to be admired and retained!

[kongjie]

With all the talk about pu'er I decided to finally try it. Somehow with all my Chinese tea drinking I've never had it.

I purchased some shou pu'er, just a sample, from Red Blossom in San Francisco.

I normally like things that other people won't like. This might be an exception, though. The taste is good but the aroma is, to my nose, almost exactly like lake water. So much so that I had a flashback to swimming tests at scout camp. Seriously.

[Proinsias]

'Pond water' is often brought up in discussion of shu and rarely in a favourable way.

[Scotto]

Don't judge pu'er by a poor shupu sample. I did for many years, and as a result missed out on the real deal - shengpu. Quite a different beast.

[Suzuki]

Don't judge pu'er by a poor shupu sample. I did for many years, and as a result missed out on the real deal - shengpu. Quite a different beast.

+100

My first experience was with some very low-end shu touchas - nasty stuff. I then went to a local tea shop and bought some loose samples - not much better despite costing a pretty penny.

I was then given some samples and tried good shengpu - it was a revelation.

It took some time for me to put in an order for stuff in bulk, but suffice it to say, I've got the bug and I now drink way more pu'erh (and mostly shengpu) than any other tea and the only cup of coffee I have is in the morning.

[Hobbesoxon]

It's very easy to buy bad tea. It's analogous to buying wine in the 1980s, when supply was limited because supply was limited. Meaning that, because the average person didn't really know much about wine back then, the products on the market were low quality, catering to and exploiting that lack of wine knowledge. Now, the average person is quite savvy regarding wine, and the quality and availability of wine has increased dramatically.

However, buying wine in the 80s, you might have thought, "This stuff is awful."

A lot in the world of tea is like that, at the moment. It's so easy to buy dross, which some import company has bought cheap and to which it has added a fancy label and corresponding profit margin.

Having said that, I've had a good tea from Red Blossom, so they definitely have some good leaves in there, but it sounds as if you got unlucky. It's very easy to get unlucky with shupu. As the gentlemen above so wisely write, don't call it a day just yet!


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[ouch]

Absolutely brilliant commentary, but I hope you're not referring to Bordeaux of the 80's, as that was likely the "decade of the century".
1980- awful.
1981- light and delicate, it provided some very nice wines that are now just about all past their prime.
1982- one of the benchmark vintages of the century.
1983- marvelous wines with tremendous success in Margaux region.
1984- yuck.
1985- terrific vintage with lots of pleasant surprises
1986- Pomerol and St. Estephe were not at their best, but St. Julien and Pauillac more than made up for it in this great vintage.
1987- light, quickly fading wines all around.
1988- hard, tannic wines, almost all of which will lose the battle of fruit vs. tannin, save for a few winners and despite the LSD induced 95 point rating by The Wine Spectator.
1989- a wonderful vintage where everyone seemed to shine.
1990- well, the 60's didn't really start until the summer of love, so I have to include this monumental vintage. :tongue_sm

That's three or four great and two truly phenomenal vintages in a very short period.

[Hobbesoxon]

Sure, the chateaux have been producing vintages multiple times per decade since the classification system in the late 1800s (and before). I'm referring to the wine commonly available to your average consumer - it was limited, because so little information was known by the average person. You could always fly to Bordeaux and find great wines in the same way that a trip to Kunming will always find you good pu'er, but what's currently available in tea is similar to wine's ("high street") availability in the 80s.

It's changing, though, gradually! Though the "which tea makes me lose weight fastest?" crowd are usually ridiculed, they are helping to make tea popular with the populace, which surely must be a good thing. :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[Suzuki]

Sure, the chateaux have been producing vintages multiple times per decade since the classification system in the late 1800s (and before). I'm referring to the wine commonly available to your average consumer - it was limited, because so little information was known by the average person. You could always fly to Bordeaux and find great wines in the same way that a trip to Kunming will always find you good pu'er, but what's currently available in tea is similar to wine's ("high street") availability in the 80s.

It's changing, though, gradually! Though the "which tea makes me lose weight fastest?" crowd are usually ridiculed, they are helping to make tea popular with the populace, which surely must be a good thing. :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

Agreed - I have access to several good tea shops - some independents, some chains, Chinese shops, Indian shops, Japanese shops - you get the picture.

Only one shop had anything resembling a decent quality of pu'erh - and they wanted a king's ransom for it.

While I think that some folks will play with pu'erh, the number of folks who will buy a cake/brick from a shop for $50 - $75 (the going rate in the few stores that carry these items) - often without being able to provide any information on date, quality, manufacturer or what to do with it. My experience has been that its impossible to get good information on pu'erh anywhere except the internet - and the same is true for access to quality products at reasonable prices.

So, even while tea is gaining popularity (my company is actually hosting a tea tasting sponsored by a local vendor as a promotional event), I can guarantee that pu'erh won't be on the menu. Most mainstream shops I've been in readily admit that they sell most of their pu'erh as a component of "wellness" or "slimming" teas.

However, the fact that pu'erh seems likely to continue to fly under the radar isn't necessarily a bad thing - we all know what's happened to the price of a decent Bordeaux over the last several years :eek:

[Hobbesoxon]

...although I would welcome some DOC-style control over pu'er. Actual control, that is, not the usual PRC "control". :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[ouch]

It's changing, though, gradually! Though the "which tea makes me lose weight fastest?" crowd are usually ridiculed, they are helping to make tea popular with the populace, which surely must be a good thing. :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

True, but there's a concomitant downside to that. To continue the wine analogy, I recently perused the high end cabinet at my local wine store, and was aghast to discover that some very recent first growths were going for $1,500 per bottle.:eek:

Those prices weren't driven to such lengths by wine fans, rather by speculators. I'm perfectly content to spend months or longer ferreting out gems if the alternative is a steady supply accompanied by a "Here ya go, that'll be $300, bub" attitude. When the "French paradox" hit the scene some fifteen years ago, my favorite cheap wines doubled in price overnight.

If pu'er truly goes mainstream, I envision rampant commercialization, fraud, and rich guys using beengs as paperweights.


...although I would welcome some DOC-style control over pu'er. Actual control, that is, not the usual PRC "control". :chinese:

Hobbes

Amen. I think the industry would ultimately have much to gain by implementing a strict, Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée-like system. Considering that the uninitiated are often first met by the tired mantra of "Oh, pu'er- you mean that stinky, foul tea", they have to decide whether to cater to the bandwagon jumpers for a quick, short term gain, or to position themselves for the long haul. How many would be pu'er fans have been turned off by their inability to navigate the tortuous waters without a governmental imprimatur that what they just purchased was, in fact, what it was purported to be.

I've even read reviews by sellers where they freely admit that what they are selling is suspect-
eg: 1998 Lincang CNNP green wrapper raw-

This production is most likely not a true CNNP production but used the same wrapper style.
Or this gem:
2007 Banzhang old tree cake, Jai Gun Da Tea Factory (may as well be- it's the Yunnan Shiyuan Tea Factory)-

This is the lowest priced tea cake that has labeled as Bangzhang as well as 'Old tree'. Let's blame it on the Banzhang crazy in the last few years as the marketing gimmick of a small tea company to sell its tea is to use a creative labeling system. Nevertheless, even if it contains only a tiny portion of Banzhang leaves while majority leaves are from other places, it worths it. For its price, you cannot beat it.


If I appear cranky today, there's good reason for it. See my next post for details.

[ouch]

For the first time since June, I didn't have any pu'er today.

:mad:

[Not A Nice Person]

Badgers...
Educate me here, what are you guys talking about?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

My sentiments exactly. I was completely lost until the word "tea," which I recognized (though as a Texan I like mine iced and sweet) came up in Post #4!

Now I at least understand they're talking about tea, but that's all. Everything else might as well be in Urdu. :001_rolle

NANP™

[ouch]

I was completely lost until the word "tea," which I recognized (though as a Texan I like mine iced and sweet) came up in Post #4!

NANP™


As a Texan, you probably know the joke about the Texan and the tea. It's possibly too vulgar for even the mod forum, but, alas, it's the only tea joke I know.

[Hobbesoxon]

I recently perused the high end cabinet

Wouldn't the cabinet taste a bit woody? :001_smile


If pu'er truly goes mainstream, I envision rampant commercialization, fraud, and rich guys using beengs as paperweights.

You're absolutely right - remember back to the year before last, when PRC speculators jumped into pu'er. I'm glad that's over!



If I appear cranky today, there's good reason for it. See my next post for details.

Sorry to hear it! I'm pseudo-cranky today, as the only pu'er I've had was a really average one (2008 Shuangjiang Mengku "Bingdao").


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[ouch]

Wouldn't the cabinet taste a bit woody? :001_smile

No more than the typically over-oaked Californian wine.


Sorry to hear it! I'm pseudo-cranky today, as the only pu'er I've had was a really average one (2008 Shuangjiang Mengku "Bingdao").


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

One more to scratch off the list.

[Hobbesoxon]

No more than the typically over-oaked Californian wine.

Just a facile cabinet/cabernet joke :biggrin:

[R-James]

Can anyone give me a quick lowdown on the 2008 Youle - Bamboo Wrapped. its a 50g bamboo leaf wrapped affair which is coming in with tomorrows shu cake, and I really have no idea what to expect from a bamboo leaf wrapped tea.

[Hobbesoxon]

That's one of Nada's teas that I haven't tried. Usually, bamboo-wrapped teas are a total gimmick and not worth the time, but I understand Nada picked this one because the actual tea itself was nice. What did you make of it?


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[R-James]

It is arriving with the postie, hopefully tomorrow morning, so I will have time for some tomorrow evening after 21st birthday based shopping for a friend and post office trips are out if the way.

Stay tuned for a very amateurish impression!

[ouch]

Just a facile cabinet/cabernet joke :biggrin:

Shouldn't that be cabinet/kabinett? :001_rolle






(I know- that was godawful.)

[R-James]

Well guys I tried the bamboo wrapped yuole tea, and honestly, the 1st session leaves a lot to be desired. I just didn't get much from this, too much bitterness for me, although that could be my newbish brewing styles. Hobbes if you want a sample of this to try let me know I have 70 grams of the tea and I can send some your way for evaluation, and to clear my mind as to if its my brewing or the tea that is distinctly off.

[ouch]

I've never tried one, but I would think that any tea (or any product, for that matter) that needs to be advertised as wrapped in bamboo, have braided leaves, or come with a discount coupon for a car wash should be suspect.

My internal BS meter tells me that a product should be able to stand on its own merits, but I'm sure there are exceptions to any rule.

Try it again with different brewing parameters before you toss it.

[Hobbesoxon]

Well guys I tried the bamboo wrapped yuole tea, and honestly, the 1st session leaves a lot to be desired. I just didn't get much from this, too much bitterness for me, although that could be my newbish brewing styles. Hobbes if you want a sample of this to try let me know I have 70 grams of the tea and I can send some your way for evaluation, and to clear my mind as to if its my brewing or the tea that is distinctly off.

Sir, that's mighty kind of you. Thanks, I'd be delighted to try it out!



I've never tried one, but I would think that any tea (or any product, for that matter) that needs to be advertised as wrapped in bamboo, have braided leaves, or come with a discount coupon for a car wash should be suspect.

My internal BS meter tells me that a product should be able to stand on its own merits, but I'm sure there are exceptions to any rule.

Try it again with different brewing parameters before you toss it.

Sage advice, as always. I've never come across a novelty tea that was decent. In this case, however, I seem to remember reading (Tea Chat?) that Nada liked the tea itself and bought it for that reason. I look forward to finding out!


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[Suzuki]

I've actually got some of the stuff Scott is selling - its packed into bamboo (the actual stalks - not the leaves) and then lightly stoved.

It makes a nice sweet, copper brew that, while more like a sheng than a shu, does have some very faint shu-type notes.

I've only had a couple of sessions with it, but my impression is that its interesting and quite good.

I'm putting together a sample for Ouch (which is way overdue) and would be happy to send a sample to any of you guys for evaluation.

I've floated this idea before, but will do so again - is there any interest in a small group of us splitting up a cake/brick every now and again to do some comparative tasting - might be interesting to see how different folks like a particular tea. I'm envisioning 3 - 5 of us splitting up a cake of something decent. No money would change hands, we'd just take turns buying the cake and sending it out - of course we'd make sure that the cakes we chose were consistently priced.

[Scotto]

I've floated this idea before, but will do so again - is there any interest in a small group of us splitting up a cake/brick every now and again to do some comparative tasting - might be interesting to see how different folks like a particular tea. I'm envisioning 3 - 5 of us splitting up a cake of something decent. No money would change hands, we'd just take turns buying the cake and sending it out - of course we'd make sure that the cakes we chose were consistently priced.

It is a good idea. I'd be in anytime.

[R-James]

The cake split idea sounds good, I'll show interest but not commitment at this point.

[Hobbesoxon]

Fellas,

Let's do it. I've got a whole spare cake of the 2008 Menghai "Peacock of Menghai". The reason being that I thought I had sent it to a friend, but it turned out I sent him a different peacock from the same set of five (http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-Menghai-Five-Colored-Peacock-Raw-Pu-erh-tea-set_W0QQitemZ350092110343QQihZ022QQcategoryZ38181Q QtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262) .

The cake is my favourite from the set of five, and, so it turns out, the favourite of Yunnan Sourcing's Scott, too. I'd like to get some comparative notes - I could pop them all into an article at the Half-Dipper, if you fancy it.

Rich, I've got your address. Scotto and Suzuki, I have addresses in New York and Toronto - have they changed? You might like to e-mail me your latest addresses, just in case!

Anyone else want to join in?


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[Scotto]

Rock and Roll!

I actually ordered some of those cakes, but didn't get that particular one. My address is the same - PM me if you need a refresh.

[Suzuki]

Address is the same - this is going to be fun.

If anyone has any cakes they want to try from YS, let me know as it will justify an order (or at least help me rationalize one anyhow...).

[R-James]

As a complete novice, if anyone wants me to pick a particular cake up give me a shout too and I will make a move towards getting it, a lot of you know more than me and I wouldn't want to send you all a duff sample.

[Hobbesoxon]

Chris - glad to hear you're in, that makes four of us, so far.

Regarding cakes from YS, I'm interested in trying the 2008 Mengyang Guoyan "Queen of Yiwu". This doesn't have samples, I think because it's a cheaper cake, and so I've no way of trying it - but it does look interesting.

I wonder if such cakes, where samples are not available from the vendor, would make good substance for this mutual tea-tasting exercise. The only way of trying these sample-less but interesting cakes, otherwise, is to just take the plunge and risk ending up with a whole cake of tea you don't enjoy.

What do you chaps think?


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

P.s. "Queen of Yiwu" is a mistranslation. I think Gordon from Dragon Teahouse put this tea up first, using this mistranslation, and Scott of Yunnan Sourcing has just retained the name because it's already stuck in the tea community. (As he did with Xizihao, where he retained Guang of Houde's incorrect "Xi Zhi Hao" pinyin.)

The name of the Mengyang Guoyan cake is actually "Yiwu Cha Huang", meaning "Yiwu Tea Emperor". This is, what I consider to be, a cheap one-upmanship over the standard "Cha Wang" [tea king] label used by other vendors to indicate good tea. The unfortunate thing is, Mengyang Guoyan have used this uber-superlative for a really cheap cake, and so it's going to make them look like blowhards if the cake turns out to be average quality. The last brand to use this inflated hyperbolic naming was Xizihao, in their "Chahuang" of last year. It's so vulgar... :chinese:

[Hobbesoxon]

Just checking my list, in addition to the 2008 Mengyang Guoyan "Queen of Yiwu", I have the following cakes noted for which Scott does not have samples:


2008 Xiaguan FT "Nan Zhao Yu" bing
2008 Xiaguan FT "Imperial Tribute" bing
2008 Shuangjiang Mengku "Muyechun Old Tree" bing

...all of which could be potentially excellent for the money, based on similar cakes from those brands this season.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[lpj]

I'm with Tim, I don't understand anything that is being spoken here. Wines, teas, coffees, lake water, etc. I know you referred Tim to a website, but is there any other sites? What would even be the search terms to use to search the web on this topic in general. Sorry to be so dense, but, guys, I'm confused. Looking forward to leads, links, understanding. Thanks

Lee



Just checking my list, in addition to the 2008 Mengyang Guoyan "Queen of Yiwu", I have the following cakes noted for which Scott does not have samples:


2008 Xiaguan FT "Nan Zhao Yu" bing
2008 Xiaguan FT "Imperial Tribute" bing
2008 Shuangjiang Mengku "Muyechun Old Tree" bing

...all of which could be potentially excellent for the money, based on similar cakes from those brands this season.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[Suzuki]

Chris - glad to hear you're in, that makes four of us, so far.

Regarding cakes from YS, I'm interested in trying the 2008 Mengyang Guoyan "Queen of Yiwu". This doesn't have samples, I think because it's a cheaper cake, and so I've no way of trying it - but it does look interesting.

I wonder if such cakes, where samples are not available from the vendor, would make good substance for this mutual tea-tasting exercise. The only way of trying these sample-less but interesting cakes, otherwise, is to just take the plunge and risk ending up with a whole cake of tea you don't enjoy.

What do you chaps think?


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

P.s. "Queen of Yiwu" is a mistranslation. I think Gordon from Dragon Teahouse put this tea up first, using this mistranslation, and Scott of Yunnan Sourcing has just retained the name because it's already stuck in the tea community. (As he did with Xizihao, where he retained Guang of Houde's incorrect "Xi Zhi Hao" pinyin.)

The name of the Mengyang Guoyan cake is actually "Yiwu Cha Huang", meaning "Yiwu Tea Emperor". This is, what I consider to be, a cheap one-upmanship over the standard "Cha Wang" [tea king] label used by other vendors to indicate good tea. The unfortunate thing is, Mengyang Guoyan have used this uber-superlative for a really cheap cake, and so it's going to make them look like blowhards if the cake turns out to be average quality. The last brand to use this inflated hyperbolic naming was Xizihao, in their "Chahuang" of last year. It's so vulgar... :chinese:

This is exactly what I was thinking of - a way of getting a decent sample where a sample is otherwise unavailable.

[Proinsias]

I'd love to join in if there's room, my pu-erh consumption has been rather minimal over the past few months or so as a darjeeling and wuyi addiction has reared it's head again.

[Hobbesoxon]

I'm with Tim, I don't understand anything that is being spoken here. Wines, teas, coffees, lake water, etc. I know you referred Tim to a website, but is there any other sites? What would even be the search terms to use to search the web on this topic in general. Sorry to be so dense, but, guys, I'm confused. Looking forward to leads, links, understanding. Thanks

Lee

Hi, Lee - have you looked at Wikicha (http://www.wikicha.com/index.php/Main_Page)? It's a good source of information for learning about new tea. We're talking about pu'er (http://www.wikicha.com/index.php/Puerh) / puerh tea. The original tea! :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[Hobbesoxon]

I'd love to join in if there's room, my pu-erh consumption has been rather minimal over the past few months or so as a darjeeling and wuyi addiction has reared it's head again.

Send me a PM with your e-mail address, good sir. :)


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[netsurfr]

I started a new thread about putting together a group buy from Scott at Yunnan Sourcing. If there is enough interest, I will volunteer to coordinate the effort and potentially get some additional discounts on the product and the shipping.

[Suzuki]

I started a new thread about putting together a group buy from Scott at Yunnan Sourcing. If there is enough interest, I will volunteer to coordinate the effort and potentially get some additional discounts on the product and the shipping.

As I indicated in the other thread, Scott's shipping is pretty reasonable and isn't that much if you use SAL shipping and spread it across a couple of cakes.

Also, because of their size/shape/weight, shipping individual cakes within the US isn't going to be super cheap - likely a few bucks per cake - so it might not make that much sense financially.

[Scotto]

Chris - glad to hear you're in, that makes four of us, so far.

Regarding cakes from YS, I'm interested in trying the 2008 Mengyang Guoyan "Queen of Yiwu". This doesn't have samples, I think because it's a cheaper cake, and so I've no way of trying it - but it does look interesting.

I wonder if such cakes, where samples are not available from the vendor, would make good substance for this mutual tea-tasting exercise. The only way of trying these sample-less but interesting cakes, otherwise, is to just take the plunge and risk ending up with a whole cake of tea you don't enjoy.

What do you chaps think?


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

P.s. "Queen of Yiwu" is a mistranslation. I think Gordon from Dragon Teahouse put this tea up first, using this mistranslation, and Scott of Yunnan Sourcing has just retained the name because it's already stuck in the tea community. (As he did with Xizihao, where he retained Guang of Houde's incorrect "Xi Zhi Hao" pinyin.)

The name of the Mengyang Guoyan cake is actually "Yiwu Cha Huang", meaning "Yiwu Tea Emperor". This is, what I consider to be, a cheap one-upmanship over the standard "Cha Wang" [tea king] label used by other vendors to indicate good tea. The unfortunate thing is, Mengyang Guoyan have used this uber-superlative for a really cheap cake, and so it's going to make them look like blowhards if the cake turns out to be average quality. The last brand to use this inflated hyperbolic naming was Xizihao, in their "Chahuang" of last year. It's so vulgar... :chinese:

Ah, a clarification from the pinyin pedant himself! :wink: Seriously, though, I was looking at this particular cake as well. As far as can be seen from a picture (not much), it looks intriguing.

What's next, Tea Demigod? You have to love the advertising.

[R-James]

I'm ordering from scott in the next hour or so so if you want me to pick up any particular cake to split amongst use let me know

[ouch]

Fellas,

Let's do it. I've got a whole spare cake of the 2008 Menghai "Peacock of Menghai". The reason being that I thought I had sent it to a friend, but it turned out I sent him a different peacock from the same set of five (http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-Menghai-Five-Colored-Peacock-Raw-Pu-erh-tea-set_W0QQitemZ350092110343QQihZ022QQcategoryZ38181Q QtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1262) .

The cake is my favourite from the set of five, and, so it turns out, the favourite of Yunnan Sourcing's Scott, too. I'd like to get some comparative notes - I could pop them all into an article at the Half-Dipper, if you fancy it.

Rich, I've got your address. Scotto and Suzuki, I have addresses in New York and Toronto - have they changed? You might like to e-mail me your latest addresses, just in case!

Anyone else want to join in?


Toodlepip,

Hobbes


Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I was typing so fast, my computer blew up.








So that's why Nick's wife refers to him as wang wang.

[R-James]

Sorry I didn't respond sooner. I was typing so fast, my computer blew up.

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Hobbesoxon]

As I indicated in the other thread, Scott's shipping is pretty reasonable and isn't that much if you use SAL shipping and spread it across a couple of cakes.

Also, because of their size/shape/weight, shipping individual cakes within the US isn't going to be super cheap - likely a few bucks per cake - so it might not make that much sense financially.

Also, Scott only charges precisely the amount that China Post charges him, which is (as you can imagine) a very low rate, for SAL.

[R-James]

Well I have a cake and some mini tuocha coming from him so I shall see what that lot is like when it arrives on the doorstep

[Hobbesoxon]

Ah, a clarification from the pinyin pedant himself! :wink: Seriously, though, I was looking at this particular cake as well. As far as can be seen from a picture (not much), it looks intriguing.

What's next, Tea Demigod? You have to love the advertising.

Some of the crazies were all of the "Abandoned Forest" and "Primeval Tree" rubbish that Xizihao came out with last year. I'd much rather an understated poetic name that all of that hyperbole, especially when the tea is not worthy of all the praise.

As we're talking about tea names, I like Nada's "Cha Cha Yi Wei", meaning "Tea, Zen - One Taste". Much better than Tea Kingemperor Wildancientarbor Fragrant Tribute nonsense. :)


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

P.s. I have to be a pinyin perfectionist, because the darned pronunciation of Chinese words hinges on it absolutely, much like Latin spelling. One wrong pinyin and you're suddenly telling a mother her daughter looks like an elephant... :chinese:

[Hobbesoxon]

Well I have a cake and some mini tuocha coming from him so I shall see what that lot is like when it arrives on the doorstep

Very nice - was it a 2008 Xiaguan mini tuocha? Those can be good.

Which cake did you grab?


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

P.s. Folks in it for the Menghai:

Scotto
Ouch
R-James
Suzuki
Proinsias
Netfurfr

[R-James]

It was the 2008 Nan Jian Tulin, maybe they are not mini tuochas after all I am still pretty green when it comes to deciphering what type of shape is what. the cake was 2007 Yong De which scott recommended to me. Both are shou teas, as the rest of my samples were sheng-pu and I am trying to try a few from each category and get a good mixture of tastes.

[Hobbesoxon]

It was the 2008 Nan Jian Tulin, maybe they are not mini tuochas after all I am still pretty green when it comes to deciphering what type of shape is what. the cake was 2007 Yong De which scott recommended to me. Both are shou teas, as the rest of my samples were sheng-pu and I am trying to try a few from each category and get a good mixture of tastes.

The Yongde will be good, I bet - decent factory, it seems. The Nanjian - fingers crossed! No idea on that one. I've got the 2006 Nanjian "Wuliangshan" bing, which was a bit average, but that wasn't shupu.

Good luck with 'em - tell us what you think. :)


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

P.s. They're probably just straight "tuocha" - mini tuocha are the tiny (and really bad) little things that weigh just a few grams, where you drop the entire mini tuocha into your water. :001_smile

[R-James]

ah, these are 100g a piece so your probably right, I'll let you know,

Also, I ran out of padded envelopes so your package will be dropped off in the morning Hobbes.

[Hobbesoxon]

Woo, thanks! It always takes me weeks (literally) to post teas, so don't rush. :001_smile


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[ouch]

Some of the crazies were all of the "Abandoned Forest" and "Primeval Tree" rubbish that Xizihao came out with last year. I'd much rather an understated poetic name that all of that hyperbole, especially when the tea is not worthy of all the praise.

As we're talking about tea names, I like Nada's "Cha Cha Yi Wei", meaning "Tea, Zen - One Taste". Much better than Tea Kingemperor Wildancientarbor Fragrant Tribute nonsense. :)


On another site, a somewhat dimwitted fellow with a cute wife posted this-


Question: Which bottle contains chardonnay?
A) 2007 Joe's Vineyard Chardonnay, Napa Valley
B) 2004 Vincent Girardin Puligny-Montrachet 1er Cru Les Caillerets

The faithful husband who thinks to himself "my wife asked for a bottle of chardonnay and I'd better damn well return with a bottle of chardonnay" would probably choose "A", but that bottle only has to contain 75% chardonnay to qualify to be labelled as such. The remainder can be anything. If you chose "B", the French AOC system (Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée) guarantees that your bottle contains 100% chardonnay despite the fact that the word chardonnay does not appear on the label. Bottle "B" tells you when it was made, who made it, where it was made, and (indirectly) what it is made from. Even a cursory understanding of the system is enough to allow you to navigate the stupefyingly obfuscatory waters of Burgundy and buy with confidence.

No such system is in place for tea. Adjectives have no meaning- one man's supreme is another's select. Words such as superfine, imperial, reserve, premium, nonpareil, and the like may have some bearing within the confines of a single retailer, but can't be relied upon to judge teas from one seller to the next. Buzzwords that are inducements for the potential buyer- yiwu, arbor, high mountain, old tree- are bandied about with impunity, and do nothing to substantiate the legitimacy of the product-
Goldberg Tea Factory Pterodactyl Picked Precambrian Original Wild Arbor Giant Tree From Famous Sacred Yiwu Mountain of Canarsie, Brooklyn.

[lpj]

Hi, Lee - have you looked at Wikicha (http://www.wikicha.com/index.php/Main_Page)? It's a good source of information for learning about new tea. We're talking about pu'er (http://www.wikicha.com/index.php/Puerh) / puerh tea. The original tea! :chinese:


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

Hobbes;

Thanks for the info. I'll check it out. Should be fun learning and trying something new. Well, by the sounds of it, maybe fun. Thanks again

Lee

[Hobbesoxon]

On another site, a somewhat dimwitted fellow with a cute wife posted this-

Hah, it's so true...



Hobbes; Thanks for the info. I'll check it out. Should be fun learning and trying something new. Well, by the sounds of it, maybe fun. Thanks again

Let us know how you get on :)


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[ouch]

I've already learned that lucha libre means free green tea.

[Suzuki]

Scotto
Ouch
R-James
Suzuki
Proinsias
Netfurfr

Now, to be clear, this isn't a situation of Hobbes sharing a cake of tea out of the goodness of his heart (he sends out a ton of samples, but that's not what this is).

The deal here is that the seven of us - and I think this is more than enough - otherwise you don't get much of a sample - are going to reciprocate by taking turns splitting a standard cake/brick evenly between ourselves on a semi-regular basis. When we split up the tea, we pay for the shipping - in exchange for which we get tea from the other six for "free". If this isn't something you want to do, say so before Hobbes ships.

If you don't know what a decent cake is, please ask for suggestions before buying.

I'm not trying to make this overly formalistic, I just want to be clear what the deal is before we start this up.

I think the cake Hobbes is splitting costs something like $16 from Yunnan Sourcing - so to be fair, I think the average price for the cakes should be between $15 and $25 before shipping (based on YS or similar vendors' pricing). If someone wants to send out something more expensive, that's great, but I want to try to keep within a reasonable quality band.

Any other thoughts as to how this should go down are more than welcome.

If I'm being too much of a stuffed shirt, just tell me to get stuffed, but I thought some general guidelines would be useful before we start this up.

I'm happy to take care of the next cake - suggestions are more than welcome - I also don't want to buy something that folks (I know Hobbes, Scotto and Ouch have decent collections already) already have.

[Proinsias]

Fine by me, I'm just gearing up for sending out 15 samples of lui an and black long jing. After several months of free samples arriving it's time to inflict my choices on the others.

[Scotto]

I hate teeny-weeny samples; to really get to know the tea I like to have an ounce or two at the least, so this should work out well.

This should be fun, and educational. It is good timing with cooler weather on the horizon as well. My tea consumption goes up as the temperature drops.

[R-James]

I am looking forward to this too. When my turn comes around I will welcome suggestions as I don't yet feel confident enough to buy teas for you guys to try and feel confident they wont be complete trash

[Hobbesoxon]

Yes, I suspect that it will often be the case that the tea itself is less expensive than the total shipping.

I did like this cake, as I have a further four for my collection, but that's no guarantee that you'll like it, of course. See what you think!


Toodlepip,

Hobbes