What's the minimum you need to forge a blade from scratch

[Tales101]

I'm thinking about, not necessarily anytime soon, but in the future attempting to start forging razors from blanks as a hobby. What I want to know is what's the bare minimum in equipment you need to do this and what can you expect to spend before you can even attempt to forge a razor?

If Bill Ellis or Robert Williams feel like piping in that would be awesome.

[RexHavoc]

I have absolutely no knowledge of my own to impart, but if you reeeeealy want to start from scratch, this website might interest you.


http://home.comcast.net/~jeshern/tatara.htm

[trewornan]

Also something like this:

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/forge.tutorial.htm

[Tales101]

This stuff is really cool. Thanks. Looks like fun just to build a forge.

[Thebigspendur]

If your really talking about scratch you need equipment to melt the metal into molton steel, forges, hammers, files , grinders, polishing equipment, gear for hardening, saws for the scales, sanding equipment, materials for finishing the scales, hones and strops. And thats just for starters.

[petr]

I think Ed Fowler's website and books are a good place to start.

As mentioned the list of equipment is long, beginning with a furnace. Then at least 2 or 3 belt grinders. I like the furnace Fowler uses and Bader grinders. I would guess you could get going for around $4,200. Maybe a lot less if you can build your own equipment as some do.

An alternative is the take away method. You can order steel in hershy bars, design jigs, and sculpt it into your design. Massaging the metal into your form and then heat treating it.

[Sticky]

Besides equipment, an apprenticeship experience of 5 years or so would be extremely valuable.

As a hobby it sounds interesting. Competing with existing blank manufacturers would be a very tough proposition.

[BillEllis]

You might just be biting off a little too much to chew if you plan on having something ready for sale any time soon. In order to come out with some good product, I am a firm believer that you should attend a class with the Guild for it. I use a stock-removal method for making my razors. Don't know too many folks anyway who forge their own stainless and I'm not particularly fond of the carbon steels. I send my stuff to Paul Bos for heat treat since there's no way I'm keeping liquid nitrogen around my house to sub-zero quench at -276 degrees. Besides, he also tests hardness for me and I'm not investing another couple grand in a Rockwell tester. That way you know for sure just how hard your razors come out. Oh, and just my Burr King grinder, alone, runs well over $4,500 these days. Don't want to discourage you too much, but you need to know this hobby isn't going to be cheap.

[Tales101]

Thanks guys. Nice too know if I'm ever independently wealthy. I wouldn't try to forge my own steel from scratch but just buy blanks and cut them. This is all interesting though.

[trewornan]

You might just be biting off a little too much to chew

Oh there's always one who's got to bring common sense into it.

[Twalsh341]

Ok with the exception of one or two there was very little help in the way of bladesmithing on this page. The first link to a home foundry setup is crazy, (very cool) but the goal is to produce quality razors; not mine your own ore, smelt it, refine it into a high carbon steel with uniform distribution of carbon, vanadium and any other alloying elements. You just want to make blades.

There are several approaches.

Stock Removal- Usually flat stock is taken to abrasives and saws to produce a shaped profile for your razor. Heat treating (HT) can be done yourself with varying levels of "complicatedness". Or blades can be shipped out to be "professionally" HT. I say professionally because certain steels are easy to HT others (stainless) are a pain. Different steels will require different setups. More on this later.

Forging- Round or flat stock is heated and hammered into shape. This requires some more tooling, but no $4,500 dollar purchases are required to start forming. After hot shaping (forge work) the blade normalized. stock removal techniques are employed to further refine the shape. From here Finishing is the same.

Bladesmithing requires different tooling than a blacksmith, and razor making requires different tooling that a bladesmith making many differnet knives will use. You don't need a $1000 forge with such a huge capacity that you burn way too much fuel forging small razors.

I make relatively small blades and carving tools, I use a small charcoal forge made for under 50 dollars. Only three different hammers, and a #110 anvil that I find is way too large for most of my work are the only things I require to hot work. For finishing I have a benchtop grinder, a strip sander, several honing stones and and assortment of files, sandpaper, clamps etc. A drill press, hand saws, and a home built lathe round out my shop, which can produce a varied amount of work.

Back to the topic at hand... unless you plan to go into business making razors full time you don't need to invest thousands of dollars in equipment. before making razors for a living apprentice or hobby with it a long time and upgrade equipment as production requires it. The most important thing about this art is that knowledge, practice and doing it will be what makes you better. No amount of money will teach you how to swing a hammer or sharpen a blade. You will crash that $60,000 Jag If you have no idea how to drive a car. The same applies for a $4500 grinder and $1000 dollar forge. The most you can hope from that is frustration and a waste of money up front.

To start I would look at any of the knifemaking/blacksmithing forums out there. www.bladeforums.com www.Knifeforums.com www.Anvilfire.com www.donfoggknives.com

Secondly read about metallurgy; different steels require different/more equipment. In my opinion I would use a standard no frills high carbon steel blade over a stainless steel blade any day. Straight high carbon 10xx steels like 1075, 1084, 1095; and low alloy steels like W1(which for many applications can be considered 1095) can be worked, hardened, tempered, and finished with little equipment. When you start making 500 blades a year from difficult to harden stainless, then get that electric heat treating oven and fancy equipment.

I've been into blademaking as a hobby for several years now, mostly carving tools. Since looking at straight razors I plan on making a few to test myself. If anyone is looking to start making blades I'll be happy to help just PM or E-mail, and we'll talk.

Trevor Walsh

[BillEllis]

Trevor...

I think we're kina saying the same thing. My story doesn't change from the concept that making straight razors is a little more involved than getting some steel hot and smacking it into a razor. Your resources for building knowledge are excellent. I think I said something about attending classes for it. Learning just from reading can be a very long process. I know that I could teach things first hand that would otherwise take a student months or years to learn without the opportunity to see it first hand. Spending time at your place or with any master craftsman would also work to shorten the learning curve. I remember reading knife-making books for 7 months before I ever bought a single tool for this "hobby". Of course, all this was even before computers, much less finding info on all the available forums these days to help the process.

I don't think that forming steel is something he will pick up here by reading a few posts or by sending emails or pm's. And, there are two separate things going on here. First is working with the hot steel to get the material to be used for the second step, which is the grinding and manufacture of the razor. You are right that he doesn't need a $4,500 grinder... they make nice variables for around $2,500. :wink: But I think you are steering the young man wrong if you tell him he can whip out blades that require a .008 thin blade edge on the equipment you use to pound steel. A variable speed grinder is an absolute must.

All this still boils down to my original statement. It's a lot to bite off and chew if you expect any immediate results. It's going to take a lot of study, a lot of dedication, and some serious dollars if a person decides to start making razors, whether it's a hobby, or not. And I also believe that anyone who thinks they are going to carve out a straight razor on a bench top grinder is in for a rude awakening. Oh, and... In my opinion I would use stainless steel over a standard no frills high carbon steel blade any day. :biggrin: nener nener

I'm looking forward to the pics of the razors you decide to make. Sounds like you know your stuff and I am expecting to see some dazzle.

[chillpill]

You are getting some good feedback here. I'd recommend you also see if you can visit some artisans at street level and check out their studios / workshops. Maybe there are some local to you or perhaps you can make a summer road trip of it.

Cheers.

[magnus]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread. I actually found it on a google search for this subject.

While tools like a variable speed grinder no doubt make the job much easier, I think it would be dishonest to the history of straight razors to suggest that it is required. How were they made in the 19th century? Or earlier examples?

At the hobby level, it is often true that cheap labor can make up for lack of resources to a large extent.

I'm only getting into the beginnings of this now. But there are ways to do this on the cheap.

Observe: .50 calibre ammo can converted into a forge!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3601/3337139546_926433dc0a.jpg

Somehow we managed to shave our faces before the onset of the industrial age. These techniques are out there just waiting to be rediscovered.

[magnus]

Anyone who thinks this can't be done cheaply needs to consider this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6tXy2TwaSc

Kids in caves are making AK47's.

They show a man making a 9mm pistol with his bare hands and a very primitive forge!

Surely such a craftsman could manage to make a workable razor blade.

[BillEllis]

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread. I actually found it on a google search for this subject.

While tools like a variable speed grinder no doubt make the job much easier, I think it would be dishonest to the history of straight razors to suggest that it is required. How were they made in the 19th century? Or earlier examples?

At the hobby level, it is often true that cheap labor can make up for lack of resources to a large extent.

I'm only getting into the beginnings of this now. But there are ways to do this on the cheap.

Observe: .50 calibre ammo can converted into a forge!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3601/3337139546_926433dc0a.jpg

Somehow we managed to shave our faces before the onset of the industrial age. These techniques are out there just waiting to be rediscovered.
I'm not quite sure what your subsequent propaganda video in your second post has to do with anything here, but to address the ammo hot box... good luck with that. :rolleyes: I look forward to seeing your first masterpiece that comes from it.

[magnus]

I'm not quite sure what your subsequent propaganda video in your second post has to do with anything here, but to address the ammo hot box... good luck with that. :rolleyes: I look forward to seeing your first masterpiece that comes from it.

Thanks for the vote of confidence there. You're a charming fellow. :rolleyes:

And propaganda video? Huh? Did you watch it? The point was that uneductated children are able to hand forge sophisticated automatic firearms with less sophisticated equipment than is *ahem* "necessary" to produce something as simple as a straight razor blade.

[mmack66]

The minimum? Ore, fire, water, anvil, hammer.

[BillEllis]

Thanks for the vote of confidence there. You're a charming fellow. :rolleyes:

And propaganda video? Huh? Did you watch it? The point was that uneductated children are able to hand forge sophisticated automatic firearms with less sophisticated equipment than is *ahem* "necessary" to produce something as simple as a straight razor blade.I hear ya talkin'... now, let's see something besides the words.

[jfreaksho]

Thanks for the vote of confidence there. You're a charming fellow. :rolleyes:

And propaganda video? Huh? Did you watch it? The point was that uneductated children are able to hand forge sophisticated automatic firearms with less sophisticated equipment than is *ahem* "necessary" to produce something as simple as a straight razor blade.

That was interesting. Thanks. I will have to agree with Bill Ellis on this, though. A razor blade is a very delicate, fine tool. I've fired (and disassembled and cleaned) a few automatic weapons and AK-47s are very simple to make. The tolerances on AKs are very sloppy, and there aren't very many parts. This is why an AK can be pulled out of the mud after a very long time and fire the first time you pull the trigger. This is also why they aren't very accurate. An AK or basic 9mm pistol is similar to a large fighting knife in terms of skill to make- there are just more parts, but nothing difficult at all. Most of an AK can be stamped out of varying thicknesses of sheet metal. A guy I knew made a few of them in his garage. The sloppiness of the weapon, and the ease with which it can be made are the reasons the AK is the number one firearm style in the world.

A razor blade will be more like a match-grade competition rifle, where every detail matters. The quality of the steel, the tempering process, all the edges need to be smooth in the correct spots, and sharp in the correct spots. I just bought a $350 competition-grade piece a couple months ago that had slid through quality control without proper polishing on one part, changing the trigger pull from five pounds to more than nine.

I'm sure that some of them could make a passable-looking razor blade, but I wouldn't shave with it. How many times have you seen people ask about the Pakistani razors on ebay? Those are probably made in a factory, but they use crappy steel, so the blade is crappy. I liked the video. I thought it was well done, and not very propaganda-y, but that proves nothing about creating razors.
J.