Vintage Coticule Natural Combo questions

[Chrisl]

I found this vintage natural Yellow and Belgian Blue coticule combo stone last week at a flea market. I've only partially lapped the yellow side and stopped at this point (you can see the unlapped area as to how grimy the stone was, almost unrecognizable, yet I knew it was a natural combo right away).

I've sent pictures to Rob Cellis at the mine but haven't heard back from him yet with some of my questions so I'll post them here along with the pics:

Pics first. The "blue" side is absolutely the most stunning and beautiful natural stone I've seen. Vividly pearlescent even when dry. We're talking psychedelic.

20402

20403

20405

20406

20407

Questions:

1) lapping the yellow side reveals that there was a circular stamp on one end of the stone's surface. I can't make out what it says, it's too faint. Were vintage coticules stamped in this manner?

2) This stone, like other pictures of some vintage coticules I've seen has hairline cracks; however, on this stone anyway, not a single "crack" can be felt even if I scratch across the "cracks" firmly with my fingernail. As such, absolutely no negative impact to honing. Were such cracks filled with anything during the cutting process or it it just time and grime that fills these cracks? Some of the larger looking ones almost appear to have been filled with a solution of some kind and maybe painted over any actual cracks?

This stone is beautiful to me. The "yellow" side is so silky smooth, smoother than another natural combo I have and the color is cream, very pale. The pics speak for themselves regarding the blue side.

30mmx150mm.

Thanks for any info.

Chris L

[joel]

Looks like a pretty standard combo. If you look at the pics of mine - it has an even more detailed "psychedelic" look to it.

The stamps we somewhat common, as they didn't come in wood boxes, or have labels (like Eschers) - however the stamps were typically on the side - so they weren't worn off.

As for the cracks - typically they are natural defects in the stone - not cracks (more so natural marks).

Hope this helps.

[LX_Emergency]

Those "defects" in the stone are usually called "veins". Most of the time they're simply a mix in with another substance in the stone. For example a stone might have a vein in it with a high iron content, making the vein red. Copper would be a green vein etc. It looks nice though.

I just bought a stone that I hope is a combostone for cheap. I hope it turns out nice. Because it kind of looked like yours in the picture on the parts before lapping it.

[Chrisl]

Looks like a pretty standard combo. If you look at the pics of mine - it has an even more detailed "psychedelic" look to it.

The stamps we somewhat common, as they didn't come in wood boxes, or have labels (like Eschers) - however the stamps were typically on the side - so they weren't worn off.

As for the cracks - typically they are natural defects in the stone - not cracks (more so natural marks).

Hope this helps.

Joel, thanks for the response. If it's not too much trouble, can you provide the link to the post with your vintage combo pics? Thanks.

Chris L

Yeah, I've looked around and I can't find the psychedelic pics of your natural coticule combo, Joel.

[joel]

Joel, thanks for the response. If it's not too much trouble, can you provide the link to the post with your vintage combo pics? Thanks.

Chris L

Yeah, I've looked around and I can't find the psychedelic pics of your natural coticule combo, Joel.

They were in an acquisition thread.... I can't seem to find the good pics - but here are some I found that show the stone. The other pics, and in person really highlight the 3D effect...

http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=10958

http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=10956

http://badgerandblade.com/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=10955

[Chrisl]

Holy inclusions, Batman! Have you determined what all the chunkles actually consist of on the blue side of your stone? Do they have any adverse affect on honing?

Rob Celis passed pics around the quarry and talked with others who are knowledgeable about vintage coticules; I'm pleased that his info dates my stone to 100+ years. Rob said the black hairline "cracks" which we know are not cracks in the literal sense are manganese oxide and the shimmer on the blue side is also containing manganese oxide.

I have a soft spot for coticules.

Chris L

[joel]

Holy inclusions, Batman! Have you determined what all the chunkles actually consist of on the blue side of your stone? Do they have any adverse affect on honing?

Rob Celis passed pics around the quarry and talked with others who are knowledgeable about vintage coticules; I'm pleased that his info dates my stone to 100+ years. Rob said the black hairline "cracks" which we know are not cracks in the literal sense are manganese oxide and the shimmer on the blue side is also containing manganese oxide.

I have a soft spot for coticules.

Chris L

Just the grain of the stone. It is totally smooth to the touch and works just fine.

[merkurguy]

Thats nice to know about the "supposed" cracks because I just bought one and was kind of bummed out when I saw a few in my stone too.PHEWW.:biggrin:

Mine is very soft to the touch too. I did not want to try to catch an edge with my fingernail because I thought it might make things worse.

[Kees]

I think it is a vintage stamp. Looks pretty much like this one. You can faintly read razor hone on your hone's stamp. I found this pic on Belgischer Brocken site.

http://www.belgischer-brocken.com/belgischerbrocken/cgi-bin/getImage.php?owner=NjQ%3D&name=aW1hZ2U%3D

[Utopian]

Your razor box is the first suggestion that I have seen for a coticule to be used with oil. Even though I have lots of coticules, I don't think I have the heart to try putting oil on one of them.

[Chrisl]

Kees:

Thanks for posting that picture of the coticule box. I carefully cleaned the stamp on the actual stone and that's EXACTLY what it says, the same exact stamp. Good work. Thanks!

Chris L

[Thebigspendur]

The supposed cracks are veins in the rock which is why you can't feel them because they are part of the rock just different material. Manganese will give a black color but not blue. The blue is coming from some other mineral. Possibly a titanium mineral. There are several minerals which can color things blue.

[Chrisl]

Some coticule cracks were in fact cracks rather than veins of some other mineral composition.

Here's a quote from Rob Celis of the Ardennes Mine in an email to me from 5/4/2008:

"Hello Chris,

I talked to an ancient Coticule miner this week, he told me that around 1900 cracks into Coticule layers were filled up with bee wax mixed with some sort of glue. The color of this filler was white to dark yellow/brown.

Regards,
Rob Celis"

Since I received that info, both myself and Howard Schechter have contemplated mixing melted beeswax and coticule powder to fill any actual fine cracks found in coticules.

Interesting stuff.

Chris L

[littlesilverbladefromwale]

Hey Chris, my John Holmes Mega Belgian combo has some waxy stuff in the faults on the Blue side.
Is my monster 100 years old.

[Utopian]

Chris,
One of my coticules has a small crack/vein (it's actually some of each) that runs the entire length of the stone. It has no impact on its honability (that's just gotta be a word) at all so I don't worry about it. I'm curious why you would want to fill in the crack?

[Kees]

I do not think there is a need to do so, mybe it was done from a selling point of view: a stone with a palpable crack might be less easy to sell. I wouldn't worry about small cracks. But I would not move the razor parallell to the crack over the hone. I that particular case the edge might be "caught" by the crack, at least I can imagine something like that to happen.

[littlesilverbladefromwale]

Rob Cellis told me that the substance that was used to fill the cracks was bees wax and wood glue !
Was it done just to stop an edge diving into a hollow??
M

[Utopian]

If the stone is flat, I can't see any chance of the edge catching on the crack.