Honinig a TIPTLE with 3M lapping film

[JoePerri]

Now that I have more experience with honing and the 3M films I decided to put a new edge on my Thiers-Issard Pierre Thiers Hand Forged Limited Edition razor. I picked this razor up in the B/S/T forum a few months back. The previous owner had given the blade a mirror polish as he did not like the look of the cheap gold wash. I agree that it looks much better without the gold. While polishing the blade he also polished off the edge. When I first received it I put a basic edge on it using the Sypderco hones. While the edge was serviceable it was not very sharp or comfortable. I could have put a better edge on it with the Spyderco hones but I've really taken an interest in seeing what the lapping films can do. I put the best possible edge on my DD Satinedge with the Spyderco hones to compare to. The DD shaves very nicely. Not as good as a Feather AC but 75%-80% as good.

Here is the razor.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/SAFaURAM11I/AAAAAAAAAU0/soRQexIwMiU/s800/TIPTLE.jpg


This is the honing equipment, a Hand American base, four glass plates loaded with 12u, 5u, 1u & 0.3u film & a leather strop charged with 0.5 CrO. The Hand American stuff is nice but hard to get.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/SAFaUhAM12I/AAAAAAAAAU8/_SsQgdpD72U/s800/films.JPG

This is the microscope and light box I use for taking micrographs.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/SAFaVBAM13I/AAAAAAAAAVE/_iAvRcFlzu8/s800/films%20%282%29.JPG


To start I gave the razor 50 strokes on the Spyderco medium grit in order to get a fresh edge to work with.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/SAFaVBAM14I/AAAAAAAAAVM/QvtO3Dzg0WE/s800/Spy%20Med%20Grit%20200x.jpg

I then started to work through the lapping films.

Here is the edge after 50 on the 12u film. It is somewhat smoother.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/SAFaVBAM15I/AAAAAAAAAVU/UwLnr5o22WY/s800/12u%20film%20200x.jpg

Here is the edge after 50 on the 5u film. It is progressing nicely.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/SAFbUBAM16I/AAAAAAAAAVg/aTm5n9wFK5Y/s800/5u%20film%20200x.jpg

Here is the edge after 50 on the 1u film. Nice and smooth.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/SAFbUBAM17I/AAAAAAAAAVo/rh63t80YTYI/s800/1u%20film%20200x.jpg

At this point I switch over to a second bevel as explained by Tim Zowada (http://www.tzknives.com/razorcare.html). I think the two bevel approach has strong advantages for those of us with very heavy, coarse beards. All commercial razor blades employ a multiple bevel.

Here is the edge after applying four layers of electrical tape and giving it 30 on the 1u film. The bevel looks outstanding!! Super smooth and well defined. In retrospect, fifteen would have been a better number as the bevel is a little too big and will take a lot of work to remove latter if I want to go back to a single bevel. Live and learn.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/SAFbUBAM18I/AAAAAAAAAVw/VczFwqntEqU/s800/1u%20film%202nd%20bevel%20200x.jpg

Now I gave the blade its final polish on the 0.3u film. Mirror smooth and kind of cool to look at.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/SAFbUBAM19I/AAAAAAAAAV4/VTYNG63ONlQ/s800/03u%20film%202nd%20bevel%20200x.jpg

I stopped at this point. No CrO or hanging strop. I want to feel the blade on my face first. It sure looks like a wicked sharp blade! :biggrin: The hairs on my arm just kind of melt off. I can't wait to try it tomorrow!!:001_smile

I sure hope this finally gets me to Feather AC levels of comfort.

Joe

[Seraphim]

Thanks for posting!

I also use diamond lapping films for honing. 9um, 6um, 3um, 1.0um, and 0.5um. They are quite effective.

I have to get a higher powered scope. I check my honing under 45x. I was surprised that your initial pre-taped 1.0um fininsh wasn't smoother than it appears above. For me, at 45x it goes from quite visible striations at 3um, to almost polished at 1.0um, with some faints lines visible. And after 0.5um, it is mirror smooth.

Excellent, excellent post! Tell us how the shave was!

[netsurfr]

Love the pics! What were you using? Thanks for posting.

[Seraphim]

And one other thing: I also tried the double bevel one time (inconclusive for me), and as you say, it takes quite a bit to get it back to a single bevel if you go too far when establishing the double in the first place!

I do applaud the fact that you went with 4 layers of tape, as that is a more dramatic effect than simple one or two layers (I went with 5 myself for a 7/8 Friodur...)

I just recently saw a posting elsewhere about those QX3 scopes, those look like fun!!!!!:001_smile

[heavydutysg135]

Awsome pictures as always!

[joke1176]

too bad there isn't a way to do a double bevel without using tape every time. I got into straights so I could avoid using disposable stuff, and the tape thing doesn't fly for me.

I may have to come up with some kinda clip or roller/clamp assembly to fit the bill.

[mparker762]

too bad there isn't a way to do a double bevel without using tape every time. I got into straights so I could avoid using disposable stuff, and the tape thing doesn't fly for me.

It's not like you have to use the tape very often, only when you hone. Using a few inches of tape when you hone twice a year is still a whole heck of a lot better than throwing away boxes full of used cartridges. If it really bothers you that much then when you take the tape off the razor put it back on the roll and re-use it next time - the adhesive is still fine, and the plastic will take many thousands of laps before wearing out.

[Soopercat]

Very nice walk through of the process. Taking the subjective nature of the outcome into consideration, I am very interested in the quality of shave you get straight off the film. The last image looked very sharp! I might want to give that a try.

Kind regards,

[gglockner]

Very impressive pictures. When I first picked up my Radio Shack microscope I thought the edge looked like the craters on the moon. Your razor looks more like a shot taken of a DE blade.
Let us know how it shaves, since that is the important part.

Glen

[JoePerri]

Well, my shave this morning was very, very nice! :001_smile Smooth and comfortable. The best shave yet from a regular straight razor. I'd say 80%-90% as good as a Feather AC. There was very little pulling or scraping, just the smooth "tink, tink" of the hairs being cut. The proper angle for holding the razor has changed with the new bevel. It might take a shave or two to find the sweet spot. I am impressed with the edge produced by these films. I'll shave with this razor all next week and see if the edge degrades. I don't expect it will due to the higher angle but we will see. Tonight I will strop on my latigo hanging strop only. Tomorrow night I will re-tape the blade and give it 15 on the CrO strop followed by the hanging strop. It will be interesting to see if there is a difference.

Next I intend to replicate this edge on my DD Satinwedge and see if the heavier grind and different steel make a difference.

These QX5 microscopes are a lot of fun. You get a whole lot of bang for your $90 bucks. I think the reason my standard edge does not look as smooth as others is because I am using very high power combined with side light. This reveals even the smallest scratch and can make them look bigger than they are.

Joe

[asbjorn]

Damn, I'm weak.. Ordered the QX5 now.. excepting my honing skills to excell withing minutes... :lol:

Where do you buy that honing film?, I found some earlier that stock these, but alas, no shipping to Norway. (I really gotta move outta here someday.. :mad3: )

[asbjorn]

Here is the edge after applying four layers of electrical tape and giving it 30 on the 1u film. The bevel looks outstanding!! Super smooth and well defined. In retrospect, fifteen would have been a better number as the bevel is a little too big and will take a lot of work to remove latter if I want to go back to a single bevel. Live and learn.

Are you refering to fifteen layers of tape?, or going down to 15 laps?
4 compared to 15 layers of tape would be very thick?, I would guess that the electrical tape around the world have the same thickness, at least mine is somewhat thick.
Since people say x layers, maybe we should check around aproximately how thick the tapes are?


Now I gave the blade its final polish on the 0.3u film. Mirror smooth and kind of cool to look at.

Very nice, how many laps on the 0.3micron?

And where did you buy these films?, I cannot find someone that stocks these in Norway yet.

Are the lappingfilms some of these?
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_WW/electronics/home/productsandservices/products/abrasives/LappingFilm/

[JoePerri]

I think you will have alot of fun with the QX5. It does need some modification to reach its full potential though. You'll need to remove the bottom light and use an external source for lighting from beneath. The top light is nowhere near bright enough for working at 200x. I use a very bright LED flashlight when taking micrographs of razors.

I used 4 layers of tape. 15 would be kind of crazy.:wink:

I gave it 20 laps on the 0.3 micron.

I decided to try a little experiment the other day. I tried waxing the blade after stropping it to see if that might reduce friction. I used a micro-crystalline wax. I was unable to discern any difference in performance. I'd like to find some kind of lubricant that can be applied to the blade at home. They use PTFE on commercial blades, but that is not practical at home.

Joe

[asbjorn]

Good, information about modifications and thinks like that is of very much use.
LED flash, is it of these with about 7-9 led's in a circle? I think I have seen such things.
What about the lightbox under, how much effect does that light have?

Yeah, I stacked 15 layers to see how much it was.. gosh, that is some tape :)
My caliper tells me that my electrical tape i 0.2mm thick or 0.0075inch
four layers is 0.76mm, 0.0295inch, and 15 layers is 2.94mm, 0.1155 inch.
So maybe my elektrical is to thick, but 2.94mm elevation of the spine is a lot.. If I remembered my cos/sin thingy from calculus I could calculate the edges angle, but, blush, that part of my brain is gone, and replaced with some on the creative side instead :D

[JoePerri]

I use an Inova light. This one. (http://www.amazon.com/Inova-5-8-Watt-Military-Flashlight-X03MT-WB/dp/B0006HKO7Q) It is very bright and the battery lasts a long time. I like flashlights. :smile:

I use a photographer's lightbox for lighting from below. A small one is fine. You can see a picture of mine above.

Yes, 15 layers would be waaaay too much. ;-> I think four is probably one too many as well.

I've been shaving with this edge all week. Today was the 5th day. It seems to be getting a bit harsh. I am stropping every night on my latigo strop from Tony. I think I will give it 10 laps on the 1u and 10 on the 0.3u tonight and see if that refreshes the edge.

Joe

[JoePerri]

Here is what the edge looked like after 5 days of use.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/SAlUWRAM1-I/AAAAAAAAAWA/uIEhOTiSQ9Y/s800/5%20Days%20use%20200x.jpg

It has some wear but nothing really visible at the edge.

Last night I gave it 10 laps on each of the 1u & 0.3 followed by stropping on CrO. It shaved much smoother this morning. Clearly the edge is degrading at a rapid pace. I wonder if stropping it on the hanging strop is even doing anything. It is unclear if the edge of the blade makes contact without the tape on the spine. I will hone my DD Satinwedge with the 3M films this weekend but I won't use a double bevel. We'll see if that makes a difference in edge life.

Joe

[Seraphim]

That edge still looks pretty nice!

Alas, you have now gone in search of "perfection", and nothing less shall ever do again!:biggrin:

Had you previously used the films all the way down to 0.3um on any other razors, or is this the first one?

[heavydutysg135]

Yeah, I stacked 15 layers to see how much it was.. gosh, that is some tape :)
My caliper tells me that my electrical tape i 0.2mm thick or 0.0075inch
four layers is 0.76mm, 0.0295inch, and 15 layers is 2.94mm, 0.1155 inch.
So maybe my elektrical is to thick, but 2.94mm elevation of the spine is a lot.. If I remembered my cos/sin thingy from calculus I could calculate the edges angle, but, blush, that part of my brain is gone, and replaced with some on the creative side instead :D

You should definately not think about using that much tape, 4 layers is too much as well. If you want to use tape then 1 piece is enough for the main edge.

[Seraphim]

You should definately not think about using that much tape, 4 layers is too much as well. If you want to use tape then 1 piece is enough for the main edge.

If you are going for the double bevel though to emulate a Feather edge, you do need 4 pieces of tape, depending on the size of the blade.

For my Friodur 7/8 it has a natural blade angle of ~18 degrees. I used my SolidWorks CAD drafting software to calculate what it would require to get the double bevel edge to a Feather 22 degree angle, and it worked out to be 5 layers of tape.

I didn't strop the edge when I did my experiment, as that final edege is soooo smooth and shiny to begin with.

That being said, I didn't notice any difference in my shave:blushing:, and have since gone back to a single bevel (that took quite some time to reset the bevel!).

[asbjorn]

Feather edge is not double bevel., at least not the edge I was looking at. one bevel only, but the IP Blue is double bevel., I'm going to check all my DE blades to se how they are.
Or maybe you are refering to Feather AC blades?, Those I don't know anything about.

[asbjorn]

For my Friodur 7/8 it has a natural blade angle of ~18 degrees. I used my SolidWorks CAD drafting software to calculate what it would require to get the double bevel edge to a Feather 22 degree angle, and it worked out to be 5 layers of tape.

5 layers of tape.. so, how thick is your tape?, you cannot take whatever tape and say 5 layers.. Some are thinner, some are thicker. if I put 5 layers of my electrical tape, that is some.

btw, how did you find out that your friodur has 18 degrees, and Feather have 22 degrees?, Just want to know, I'm starting to compare my DE blades to find out why they behave different.

[asbjorn]

I think you will have alot of fun with the QX5. It does need some modification to reach its full potential though. You'll need to remove the bottom light and use an external source for lighting from beneath. The top light is nowhere near bright enough for working at 200x. I use a very bright LED flashlight when taking micrographs of razors.

Did you pyshically remove the bottom light?

I'm speculating about removing the top LED and buy one that is stronger, I see that you can get 1watts single LEDs.
Your inova light does that one have one single LED or is it multiple inside?, I bought one crappy one here, but no info about watts but it is 136 lumen, so it is extremely bright, but I send the light in from the side, and that gives strange reflections.
I'm wondering about taking out that led and replace it with the built in one, and add external power to give it what it needs.

[JoePerri]

Feather edge is not double bevel., at least not the edge I was looking at. one bevel only, but the IP Blue is double bevel., I'm going to check all my DE blades to se how they are.
Or maybe you are refering to Feather AC blades?, Those I don't know anything about.

This is incorrect. Feather DE blades are triple beveled. Feather AC are double beveled.

This is a Feather DE blade. You can clearly see all three bevels.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/JoePerrigoue/R0SIxdNOs8I/AAAAAAAAAF8/NRhpopAmXu8/s800/Feather%20Plat%20200x.jpg

Joe

[Seraphim]

Feather edge is not double bevel., at least not the edge I was looking at. one bevel only, but the IP Blue is double bevel., I'm going to check all my DE blades to se how they are.
Or maybe you are refering to Feather AC blades?, Those I don't know anything about.


From the Zowada website:Zowada (http://www.tzknives.com/twobevel.html)

When I started looking at the Feather brand DE blades at 200x, I noticed three distinct bevels. I built a laser angle measuring gizmo to check what the actual angles were. To my surprise the final angle was between 20 and 21 degrees. The Feather Professional straight blades were 25 degrees.


Almost all DE blades have at least two bevels, most three. The Merkurs have three bevels, but they are all done with like 600 grit sandpaper, thus they give a rough shave:mad: (my opinion only, but they do look quite rough under a microscope!)

[JoePerri]

Did you pyshically remove the bottom light?

I'm speculating about removing the top LED and buy one that is stronger, I see that you can get 1watts single LEDs.
Your inova light does that one have one single LED or is it multiple inside?, I bought one crappy one here, but no info about watts but it is 136 lumen, so it is extremely bright, but I send the light in from the side, and that gives strange reflections.
I'm wondering about taking out that led and replace it with the built in one, and add external power to give it what it needs.


Yes, I removed the bottom light. It is just a few screws to get it out.

I did not replace the top light. I have used a variety of lights to illuminate the field. For razor blades I find that I get the best results from a hand held flashlight. I cut away most of the dark plastic surrounding the bottom of the turret to give better access. I suppose you could replace the built-in LED with a high wattage one but it might be a bit tricky.

I hope this helps!

Joe

[mparker762]

5 layers of tape.. so, how thick is your tape?, you cannot take whatever tape and say 5 layers.. Some are thinner, some are thicker. if I put 5 layers of my electrical tape, that is some.

btw, how did you find out that your friodur has 18 degrees, and Feather have 22 degrees?, Just want to know, I'm starting to compare my DE blades to find out why they behave different.

You can calculate the angle on a straight by measuring the distance between the honing flats on the spine (call this S) and the distance from the edge to the honing flats (call this W). The honing angle is then 2 x asin((0.5 x S) / W), where "asin" is the arcsin function, sometimes called sin-1 on some calculators.

So a razor that measures 7/8" from edge to honing flats, and 1/4" across the flats, has a honing angle of:

ha = 2 x asin((0.5 * 0.25) / 0.875)

= 2 x asin(0.125 / 0.875)

= 2 x asin(0.1428)

= 2 x 8.21deg

ha = 16.42 degrees

you can also use this to calculate how much the tape changes the honing angle for your various secondary bevels.

[matt321]

The DE makers can save time and wear on equipment by creating a polished micro-bevel and not polishing out the entire back bevel. Other than this efficiency, I don't really see how this makes a blade sharper than a single bevel at the same level of polish. :confused:

[JoePerri]

It doesn't make it sharper, in fact in makes it "less sharp" when you take the increased angle into account. That does not necessarily translate to "less comfortable" though. Since there are many of use who find the Feather blades to be the ultimate in comfort it makes sense to try and replicate their blade and see what effect it has on perceived sharpness or comfort. It is also much easier for us to finely polish a microbevel and touch it up when dull. So far I have found no overall benefit in a secondary bevel.

Joe

[asbjorn]

you can also use this to calculate how much the tape changes the honing angle for your various secondary bevels.

Thanks!

[asbjorn]

This is incorrect. Feather DE blades are triple beveled. Feather AC are double beveled.This is a Feather DE blade. You can clearly see all three bevels.

Cool, I have to check the lighting department, or the snazzy software mixed my pictures up.. I was clearly under the impression that the feather had only one bevel.. :)

[siltmonkey]

Hi

Can you please tell me how you attached the lapping film to your glass plates?

thanks!

r

[JoePerri]

They are PSA backed sheets.

Joe