Any advice for a Honing Newbie? :)

[Moog101]

Hi all

A couple of weeks ago I caught the straight shaving bug and I now own about 5 straight razors and 6 honing stones / plates. I've had a couple of weeks of good practice shaving with them and it's all going very well on that side but what I'm having problems with is honing my own blades and getting them anywhere near sharp enough to shave with.

I bought a brand new but slightly cheaper razor just to practice my honing skills on (so I don't ruin my good ones). It's got a Sollinger blade so I don't think there should be a problem with its quality.

I started by reading and re-reading all the advice here about honing and probably every forum entry on this site.

I received yesterday a DMT diamond lapping plate and I lapped my Norton 4000/8000 (it's amazing just how unflat they actually are when you get them brand new, even though to the eye and touch they already seem perfectly flat)

Last night I started out on the Norton 4k 5-10 times as mentioned in the guide on this site if it's a new, straight from the factory, razor. Is it correct that after using JUST the Norton 4k it "should" be sharp enough to pop hairs off your arm? I cannot even get it close to this point. Even with slight sawing motions to the hair it's not enough to cut it !!

I've also thought that it could be I'm over honing. So I've also tried some recommendations I've read here about lightly running the blade a few times over a match to remove any burrs then give it another 4-5 times on the 4k and try again. Even this doesn't seem to help.

I can't even seem to get it as sharp after honing and stropping as some of the new ones that I have received straight out of the box (ones not professionally honed). Being able to pass the hanging hair test seems like light years away.

I know it takes years of practice to learn this skill but does anyone have any advice how to best progress?

Thanks for your time..

M

P.S. Also, should you lap a SpyderCo Ultra Fine hone? I've heard conflicting advice and don't want to ruin either the Hone or the Lapping Plate if it's not actually necessary.

[StephenKane]

I'm in the same boat as you. Exact same problem. I'm beginning to think I'm going to have to haunt old barber shops in the hopes of finding an experienced honemeister. :lol:

Please let me know if you finally figure it out - as I'm sure we're not the only ones stuck at this stage.

[Moog101]

I'm glad i'm not the only one with this problem. :biggrin:

After reading a bit more on some other threads I think i'm going to try the Norton honing pyramid tonight and see if I have any more luck with that.

I'll keep at it until I finally get it, i'm very stubborn :lol:

[StephenKane]

Yeah - I've been trying the pyrimid for two days. Not having much luck. I'm relapping my hone tonight and then trying again. Let me know how it goes.

[Thomas]

First things first - if you haven't already, check Joel's guide on honing. He pretty well covers it all, with photos, and puts things better than I can.

If you have any doubts, use a magic marker to color the edge and make sure your edge is in contact with the hone as the razor lays flat.

[professorchaos]

From one newb to another...my only credentials are that I have managed to get several straights really comfortably sharp. For this I can only credit those who post here and at SRP. Should they see any error in my methods, I would hope for input to that affect.

1. If the blade passes the thumb nail test, I skip the 4k. If not, I will give it 10 laps on the 4k until it passes the TNT. Should it fail, another 10. Repeat until it passes. I take the thumbnail test to be indicative of a good bevel. At this point I also ust the thumb pad test to assess sharpness. Often I use a DE blade for comparison. Also, at this stage I mark the edges with a permenant marker to make sure that I am setting an even bevel.

2. onto the Belgian Blue with a heavy slurry for 50-100 laps. Every 20 laps or so I use the TPT to re-assess sharpness and gauge progress. When the edge feels smooth on the hone and TPT shows it to be sharper, onto the next hone.

Here paths diverge...I still don't know which I prefer, with each I have produced razors sharper than I imagined I ever would.

Path A:

3. Coticule, no slurry. Another 50-100 laps. When it feels smooth on the hone, TPT to gauge progress. Once it seems sharper, a modified HHT. At this point, my hair is too fine to pass the HHT However, if I drag it along the edge I find that I can feel the teeth catching the hair. Hollow ground razors make a plucking sound. Once the razor catches the hair, onto the final hone.

4. Chinese 12k until the razor passes HHT.

Path B:

3. Coticule, heavy slurry. Same tests to assess progress as Path A, Step 3.

4. Naniwa 10k until razor passes HHT.

Some thoughts on the above processes...

1. It often takes 100+ laps on Chinese 12k for a razor to pass HHT. Even with a slurry
2. I wonder if I am not spending enough time on the Coticule. I understand that many people can pass the HHT with it as a finishing hone. Or it could be that my hair is too fine.
3. How will these edges hold up over time? At most I have put three shaves on edges I have honed. They have held up thus far but I am curious to see how they fare in the coming months.
5. Hones that give a lot of feed back are a blast to use!

[StephenKane]

Thanks! speaking for the new guys we really learn a lot when you all post your methods down to the tiny details.

Question. You mentioned your blades not passing the HHT but 'catching' the hair enough to make you feel it's ok to move on to finer polishing. My professionally honed str8t pops the HHT every time so far. However the str8t i'm working with can never seem to get there off of the 4K. I'm staying on the 4K until it passes HHT but other posts seem to be implying that I'm just shaving metal off of the bevel after a point.

What's a good rule of thumb? Keep on the 4K until it passes the HHT or just try to get a good TPT and TNT (in your own opinion) and move on?

[Moog101]

What's a good rule of thumb? Keep on the 4K until it passes the HHT or just try to get a good TPT and TNT (in your own opinion) and move on?

That's something that I would love to know too. It would be handy to know if further honing with finer stones than the 4k is actually going to help much or not.

[RayG]

I bought a brand new but slightly cheaper razor just to practice my honing skills on (so I don't ruin my good ones). It's got a Sollinger blade so I don't think there should be a problem with its quality.

Make sure you are working on a good blade, and not a poor Solingen copy.

[professorchaos]

Question. You mentioned your blades not passing the HHT but 'catching' the hair enough to make you feel it's ok to move on to finer polishing. My professionally honed str8t pops the HHT every time so far. However the str8t i'm working with can never seem to get there off of the 4K. I'm staying on the 4K until it passes HHT but other posts seem to be implying that I'm just shaving metal off of the bevel after a point.

Perhaps you would want to use the 4K to set the bevel if required and move to the 8K until it passes the HHT? Honestly, most of my professionally honed razors never passed the HHT - my hair is just that fine. So I never really bothered until I started honing.

I will be interested to hear what the more experienced honers have to say.

[Moog101]

Hi All

As an update to my original post i've had some good success with the honing of my new but "unshavable" blade. Over the last week or so i received a few DMT Whetstones. (Actually I'm rather ashamed as to the amount of money i've spent in the last month on shaving gear :blushing:)

Anyway, I decided to forget the Norton 4000/8000 and try just the DMT's. I started out by doing a few maybe 5-6 on the D8F, then the same on the D8E and the same again on the D8EE. After that I did about 10 or so passes on the SpyderCo UltraFine and then stropped it.

As usual I tried the HHT and it failed miserably but I thought what the hell, i'll try shaving with it anyway. And what do you know... it was a lovely smooth shave, cutting nicely rather than ripping the hair out at the roots like it seemed to do before :001_smile

Anyway, this was a major milestone passed and i'm pretty happy :biggrin: In the back of my mind I was still a bit frustrated about the HHT never working, so I ordered a couple of feather razor blades just specifically to test against them. After they arrived today I plucked out a hair and held it to the side of the feather razor and.... nothing happened. Even with that blade it didn't "pop" in two. So I tried a sawing motion and it still didn't cut it. I tried it against the hair on my arm and still the same thing happened, no popping of hair. So now my mind is put to rest that the HHT will probably never work for me and I can forget it, just straight to shave :001_rolle

Cheers

M

PS Also I ended up lapping my SpyderCo Ultrafine and it didn't seem to do it any harm. It was surprising how unflat it actually was new.

[Swiftsteel]

I have never honed my own razor but i sent my razor off to be professionally honed and when it came back i tried the HHT. I was a little dissapointed when it didnt pass without using a sawing motion. But when i shaved with it, it was smooth and cut my whiskers no problem. Mabye it is my hair is too fine i dont know but as i have read many times the most important test is the shave test.

Swiftsteel

[Purvis]

What did you lap the SpyderCo with?

[AustinC9]

The real test should be the quality of the shave. Don't worry so much about the HHT it is more of a guide line. Good luck

[Moog101]

What did you lap the SpyderCo with?

I lapped it with a DMT D8C. It took about 3-4 hours (whereas the norton 4000/8000 took about 5 minutes) so don't attempt it unless you've got some time to spare and even more patience :001_rolle

[Purvis]

wow, thanks for responding. I just ordered a UF and was going to run thru the recommended sequence that I just got from Lynn tomorrow when it arrives. Would you consider using it one time on a blade without lapping it first a bad thing?

[Moog101]

wow, thanks for responding. I just ordered a UF and was going to run thru the recommended sequence that I just got from Lynn tomorrow when it arrives. Would you consider using it one time on a blade without lapping it first a bad thing?

Hi Again

Well i'm still a honing newbie and just getting to grips with it all myself, so as to whether you should try honing with it before lapping it is something only you can decide.

After reading through thousands of forum posts there seems to be mixed opinion as if you should even need to lap a SpyderCo UltraFine, but when I got mine, to the touch it felt smoother than a BBS shave, but looking at the surface very closely under a strong light you could actually see the slight round marks on the surface where they made and cut it.

In the end I did decided to lap it and now it's even smoother and with none of the factory marks remaining. Hasn't done it any harm, just cost me 3-4 very boring hours of my life :lol:
Now i've lapped once it I doubt i'll even need to do it again seeing as they are so hard. From what I have learnt the ceramic SpyderCo's are a lot lot harder than normal stone hones.

One other thing, if you're going to lap it with a DMT whetstone, make sure you don't use too much pressure when doing it. I think by doing that myself (due to lack of patience) I turned my DMT Course into a DMT Fine :001_rolle

[Purvis]

Interesting info. I haven't honed prior so all this information is new to me. I appreciate your insight.

[matt]

Hi all

A couple of weeks ago I caught the straight shaving bug and I now own about 5 straight razors and 6 honing stones / plates. I've had a couple of weeks of good practice shaving with them and it's all going very well on that side but what I'm having problems with is honing my own blades and getting them anywhere near sharp enough to shave with.

I bought a brand new but slightly cheaper razor just to practice my honing skills on (so I don't ruin my good ones). It's got a Sollinger blade so I don't think there should be a problem with its quality.

I started by reading and re-reading all the advice here about honing and probably every forum entry on this site.

I received yesterday a DMT diamond lapping plate and I lapped my Norton 4000/8000 (it's amazing just how unflat they actually are when you get them brand new, even though to the eye and touch they already seem perfectly flat)

Last night I started out on the Norton 4k 5-10 times as mentioned in the guide on this site if it's a new, straight from the factory, razor. Is it correct that after using JUST the Norton 4k it "should" be sharp enough to pop hairs off your arm? I cannot even get it close to this point. Even with slight sawing motions to the hair it's not enough to cut it !!

I've also thought that it could be I'm over honing. So I've also tried some recommendations I've read here about lightly running the blade a few times over a match to remove any burrs then give it another 4-5 times on the 4k and try again. Even this doesn't seem to help.

I can't even seem to get it as sharp after honing and stropping as some of the new ones that I have received straight out of the box (ones not professionally honed). Being able to pass the hanging hair test seems like light years away.

I know it takes years of practice to learn this skill but does anyone have any advice how to best progress?

Thanks for your time..

M

P.S. Also, should you lap a SpyderCo Ultra Fine hone? I've heard conflicting advice and don't want to ruin either the Hone or the Lapping Plate if it's not actually necessary.

You should be careful lapping a spyderco hone with a DMT. I have heard that they remove diamond from the hone

[jax1-2]

First of all i am a newbies. Now with that said, you should not try the HHT until you are on the 8k stone, if you go to srp and look in their hone section you will find a multitude of answers. I have been shaving with a straight for about 1 1/2 months and am by no means an expert. what I use is a barbers hone with shaving lather on it, first i use moderate pressure for 10 strokes and the I use a feather touch for 10 strokes, after that 100 laps on classified adds from the news paper and the leather strop for 30 passes. My razor will not pop the hair without a quick motion but it shaves like it is just scraping off the lather but when you touch it, it is freakishly smooth. To quote my 11 year old "it's a little too smooth daddy". YMMV this is what works for me but each person and razor are different so dont be afraid to experiment. Now all that being said i still enjoy using my DE in the rotation when the mood strikes and that makes the "straight" days even more enjoyable. Sorry for the long post.

andy

[Bruce]

Hi Again

One other thing, if you're going to lap it with a DMT whetstone, make sure you don't use too much pressure when doing it. I think by doing that myself (due to lack of patience) I turned my DMT Course into a DMT Fine :001_rolle


Moog,

You say that you may have turned your DMT coarse into a DMT fine. I tried to do a similar lapping when I saw the swirls in my Spyderco UF and turned my DMT coarse into a DMT eunuch, but just on one end - by using much too much pressure on the lapping plate. Diamonds may be a lapper's best friend, but nickel is not forever.:wink2:

[TstebinsB]

In the end I did decided to lap it and now it's even smoother and with none of the factory marks remaining. Hasn't done it any harm, just cost me 3-4 very boring hours of my life :lol:
Now i've lapped once it I doubt i'll even need to do it again seeing as they are so hard. From what I have learnt the ceramic SpyderCo's are a lot lot harder than normal stone hones.

That reminds me of a Transluscent Arkansas stone that JoshEarl flattened for me. It took him so many hours to do it that it became somewhat of a battle between Josh and the stone. The funny part of the story is that it took him so long to flatten it that by the time he was done, I had already bought another stone and sold the Arkansas as soon as I got it back. :tongue: