Quick question on honing

[StephenKane]

I'm still trying to hone my first razor. Not having much luck. I've tried the pyrimid system as recommended but still have rough spots on the heel and toe (by feel) and can't shave with the razor. It won't 'Pop' hair off my arm or pass a HHT.

Question 1: How does one "start over' with a razor? Do I back hone X amount of times and then try to reestablish a bevel/edge?

[mparker762]

If you've been doing pyramids then you don't need to backhone, since the pyramid scheme does a good job of preventing excessive burrs. You can just keep doing pyramids until it's sharp all over.

I'm curious why the heel and toe aren't getting sharp though. Have you tried the magic marker test to verify they're hitting the hone correctly?

[StephenKane]

thanks. No I haven't been doing the Edge uniformity test. I thought I'd get a blade close to sharp first and then try that. I'm concerned that I've had 5 sit down and try to sharpen the blade sessions with the norton and can't even get close to having it sharp enough to pop a hair...even a bit. I've had another blade professionally sharpened so I can feel what a sharp blade should be like - can't get close.

[mparker762]

When was your norton last lapped? Back when I used it, I lapped it before every session. It makes a huge difference.

[StephenKane]

I lapped it before the first attempt at honing. So 5 attempts ago. I will lap again before the next one. Again, I've tried the Pyrimid and I've tried a couple of processes that I've read in the forumn but the blade doesn't get sharp enough to shave with. At least I'm relatively sure that I shouldn't move away from the 4K until it can pass the test - I have a 12K for polishing but now that I'm learning more I'm not moving to that until the straight can pop hairs.

[Grigio]

I'm sort of a newbie when it comes to honing but I think that you should try the magic marker trick right off the bat. Especially with any razor that you have not honed before.

I have a Wapi that I never had any luck with and after a lot of trying to get it sharp, I checked the edge and found that it is slightly warped. Which explained the poor results (especially on a Norton which is wide enough to not necessitate the use of an X-pattern).

Once you know what part is not contacting the hone you can try and adjust your stroke/?pressure? to compensate for it.

As I mentioned, I'm no expert, but the more you know about your situation the better you (and others here) can handle it.

[StephenKane]

I'm going to sit down tonight again and
1. Lap my hone
2. Try the magic marker test
3. Go with the pyrimid pattern of strokes.

if that doesn't work I'll use the razor butter toast. I may not have mentioned it but i had this razor honed by Vintage Blades but it was never sharp enought to shave with without pulling and being uncomfortable. so maybe it's the razor itself that is making this difficult - though it's more than likley it's my inexperience.

[Thebigspendur]

I don't know what kind of razor you have or its condition however the 4K is mainly used to set the bevel, remove microchips-stuff like that. if your bevel is in good shape I wouldn't be spending much time with it your just removing alot of metal.

[StephenKane]

It's a Dovo Solingen carbon steel 5/8. I had read and posts have stated that before moving on to polishing, the str8t should be passing the HHT and the magic marker test.

also the pyrimid pattern of strops keeps sending the razor back to the 4K side for multiple passes after the 8K side is used. I'm assuming that this pattern ultimatley gets the razor to the point of passing the two tests -though I haven't been able to make it.

I will definitely keep trying.

[asbjorn]

sorry to hijack but,

I have the same problem, with an similar Dovo solingen carbon steel 5/8 (similar since I don't know which you have, mine is full hollow ground)

The pyramid, I thought that is used only with the norton 4k/8k right?, I have tried it once now for the Dovo, and once for an Wapi, the dovo is still useless, but the Wapi feels sharp, but none is passing hht, and, well, the markertest, looks like I miss the heel.

Or should I use another stone combination for the pyramid? (i have the lot)

[StephenKane]

My str8t is the very same one and no problem to hijack. Thanks for jumping in. Maybe some of the experienced honers could weigh in. could it be the quality of the str8t? I still think it's me but....:blushing:

I have a Dovo 5/8 solingen that was much more expensive and haven't honed it yet as it was done by a pro. It cuts great.

[heavydutysg135]

That's a quick question without a quick answer. There are going to be two different camps of people answering you. The first is going to tell you that you probably overhoned the razor and need to do light work on it and the second is going to tell you that if your razor does not feel sharp and never did then it isn't close to being there yet. I am definately in the second camp and would tell you that if your razor is not at least significantly sharper than the sharpest knife that you ever felt then you have not done enough work on the metal removing stones (4K and below). If you have not yet read this thread then I would recommend checking it out.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31640
I will also be posting a video in the near future which will cover all of what I consider the "fundamentals" of honing including how to perform and use the sharpness tests to see when you are ready to move from one stage/stone to the next.

David

[asbjorn]

so much text.. no pictures.. gawd.. so I have to read it then..

[asbjorn]

So, which stones to use under 4K?, I don't want to use my D8C :D, or my D8E, other options?

[heavydutysg135]

So, which stones to use under 4K?, I don't want to use my D8C :D, or my D8E, other options?

The DMT-8E will work really well if used properly.

[heavydutysg135]

so much text.. no pictures.. gawd.. so I have to read it then..

Nobody is forcing you to take the time to read it, you can figure it all out on your own by honing hundreds of razors if you want. Alternatively, I am in the process of editing a video (hopefully it will be done in a week or two) that will cover the material and might keep your attention.

David

[StephenKane]

That's a quick question without a quick answer. There are going to be two different camps of people answering you. The first is going to tell you that you probably overhoned the razor and need to do light work on it and the second is going to tell you that if your razor does not feel sharp and never did then it isn't close to being there yet. I am definately in the second camp and would tell you that if your razor is not at least significantly sharper than the sharpest knife that you ever felt then you have not done enough work on the metal removing stones (4K and below). If you have not yet read this thread then I would recommend checking it out.
http://badgerandblade.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31640
I will also be posting a video in the near future which will cover all of what I consider the "fundamentals" of honing including how to perform and use the sharpness tests to see when you are ready to move from one stage/stone to the next.

David


I've read it a hundred times - great post and thanks for taking the time to write it. The problem is that if I can't get the hair test to work - which I haven't - but I did get the magic marker to work - which I did - then I'm stuck. I tend to think the second camp is right and that I haven't done enough work on the 4K ...BUT how many strokes to I do before giving up? I've had to have put quite a few round trips on the 4K in the 6 honing sessions I've done to this razor...and it doesn't seem to be getting to the point where it can pop a hair.

Remember - I had this razor honed at Vintage Blades BEFORE trying to shave with it and it was pulling and uncomfortable right from the get go. I've lapped my hone twice and been through the pyrimid regimen 3 times and I've gotten only very minor feel improvements. The rough spots are gone but It still isn't feeling as sharp and smooth as my higher end razor.

Sigh. I guess I'll wait for the video! :mad3:

[Mike_ratliff]

Do not expect the hair test to work on every razor. That is just a test.

Feel the edge, if it feels very sharp with the the thumb pad test, then move on to the 8k.

Use your marker when setting your bevel, this is when it is most important. Once you are certain of your bevel, you are past the hard part.

I am going to ask you to try a blind test.

Use your marker, and do 5 passes on the 4k. I would recommend taping the spine.
If the marker is removed for the length of the edge, then great. If not, you have found your problem.

Next step assuming the marker test is okay. do 25 very light passes on 8k, and 20 passes on your 12k no testing. I repeat have faith, use as light of pressure as possible, and do not test the blade.
If you have 0.5 chromium do 25 passes, and if you have 0.25 diamond paste do 15 passes. Remember no testing.

Finally do 50 passes on newspaper, and 50 on leather.

Then test your edge. and share your results.

[asbjorn]

Nobody is forcing you to take the time to read it, you can figure it all out on your own by honing hundreds of razors if you want. Alternatively, I am in the process of editing a video (hopefully it will be done in a week or two) that will cover the material and might keep your attention.

David

There was some irony in my line there :)
I have been reading all the parts of the interactive guide regarding honing, this part slipped through.
I have to read it completely now to be sure I'm understandig this.
My language is not english natively, so lots of dence writing takes away my attention. But I really want to see the video, I hope there are some good ideas there.
The info about the honing pyramid I read about on SRP, and in Lynns DVD, but in the DVD he says it takes so little..

[asbjorn]

...but I did get the magic marker to work - which I did - then I'm stuck. I tend to think the second camp is right and that I haven't done enough work on the 4K ...BUT how many strokes to I do before giving up? I've had to have put quite a few round trips on the 4K in the 6 honing sessions I've done to this razor...and it doesn't seem to be getting to the point where it can pop a hair.


Does it exists pictures of what to look for in the magic marker test?, I have tried it, and I think I'm there. The razor also pops hair of my arm witout any problem, but the HHT is not working. (My head is clean so I have to use other hair from my forearm or my chest, which have different thicknesses, but it should still do, right?)
The HHT I saw a small video of, so I finally understood how it works, at least I guess so. I think it is Mike at SRP who have that video in his sig?

Edit: Its Mike_ratliff in this thread who have the video:), and this link:
http://thewellhonedrazor.com/hahate.html

[Mike_ratliff]

If it pops hair, then you have a good bevel. what you want to see in the magic marker test is a clean bevel. if it still has black on the bevel then it isn't touching stone at that spot.

read post #18

[asbjorn]

Use your marker, and do 5 passes on the 4k. I would recommend taping the spine.
If the marker is removed for the length of the edge, then great. If not, you have found your problem.

Approximately, how much should be removed?, I'm thinking about the width from the edge to the spine sort of.

And if it does not go away along the complete edge, then you need to continue on the 4K alone until you are there?

[StephenKane]

Does it exists pictures of what to look for in the magic marker test?, I have tried it, and I think I'm there. The razor also pops hair of my arm witout any problem, but the HHT is not working. (My head is clean so I have to use other hair from my forearm or my chest, which have different thicknesses, but it should still do, right?)
The HHT I saw a small video of, so I finally understood how it works, at least I guess so. I think it is Mike at SRP who have that video in his sig?

Edit: Its Mike_ratliff in this thread who have the video:), and this link:
http://thewellhonedrazor.com/hahate.html

Thanks. I'm on it. I will report the results later today. thanks for the instructions.:biggrin:

[Mike_ratliff]

Approximately, how much should be removed?, I'm thinking about the width from the edge to the spine sort of.

And if it does not go away along the complete edge, then you need to continue on the 4K alone until you are there?


all you need is a fine line of metal exposed, it doesn't need to be wide, or even, just exposed. The marker doesn't tell you if you have a bevel set, it just tells you where you aren't hitting the hone.

With what you are describing, shaving arm hair, etc... I believe you are ready to finish the edge, so try my blind test as listed on the 1st page, and see how it goes.

[asbjorn]

I tried it with tape now, and see that on the wapi the result is pretty much consistent to what I found trying to shave with it, about 3/4 of the blade is exposed, the lst part not so much. this one is equal on both sides of the edge.

With the Dovo on the other hand, pretty much everypart of the edge except for say 7mm on the front side, where the goldwash is, on the other side, from toe to the middle is exposed, and a part of the heel is exposed, but nothing between the middle and the heel.

damn..

I did both razors with tape on the spine, but honing otherwise have been done without tape, should I trust these results?, or should I try it again without tape to see if I'm fooled or not? I guess I have some work now :)

[Mike_ratliff]

the tape protects the spine but shouldn't affect the results.
You need to hone on 4k, and re-ink periodically till you can get it removing ink all along the lenght of the blade. It is okay to leave some at each end as you will likely not notice a difference. The ink removal doesn't have to be a nice perfect line, it is just important to have the edge touching the hone along it's entire length.
It sounds like you have a warped blade, and this will make things challenging for you (but probably not impossible). You might consider sending it out for evaluation by a pro.

[asbjorn]

Ok, so the idea is to continue honing until I get ink removed along the whole edge?
Think I managed to do this on the Wapi now, did a few turns on an D8EE, a wee bit faster:)
The wapi looks very promising now, but the Dovo.. crap..
Ill try my other razors also to see what they turn out like now. I think I understand some of the concept.
When using the 4K like this, with the marker, then I'm also making the bevel?, so when I succeed in removing the ink, then I have the bevel?, and can thus go over to the norton-pyramid?

Pics of my wapi, difficult to get the light correct, tried to get the light on the edge so it is visible, but:
19887
19888

[Mike_ratliff]

That doesn't look too bad, do you see the fine line of the bevel? that's all you need exposed, and it looks good in the top picture. The bottom picture is harder to see, but you aren't too far off.
I would say keep your spine taped, and keep working it. Once you have it where the ink is coming off evenly, then you just need to set the bevel, which may take as few as 15 passes on the 4k? Until that happens, don't even worry about higher grits.

If you can get both sides looking like that top picture you are almost home free.

[heavydutysg135]

Ok, so the idea is to continue honing until I get ink removed along the whole edge?
Think I managed to do this on the Wapi now, did a few turns on an D8EE, a wee bit faster:)
The wapi looks very promising now, but the Dovo.. crap..
Ill try my other razors also to see what they turn out like now. I think I understand some of the concept.
When using the 4K like this, with the marker, then I'm also making the bevel?, so when I succeed in removing the ink, then I have the bevel?, and can thus go over to the norton-pyramid?

Pics of my wapi, difficult to get the light correct, tried to get the light on the edge so it is visible, but:
19887
19888

The marker test on that one looks good. Sharpness and an even bevel are two seperate things though as I explained in the bevel tutorial. Assuming the razor is sharp and passes the marker test as your razor did, then you are ready to move on to the polishing stages or light pyramids.

[heavydutysg135]

That doesn't look too bad, do you see the fine line of the bevel? that's all you need exposed, and it looks good in the top picture. The bottom picture is harder to see, but you aren't too far off.
I would say keep your spine taped, and keep working it. Once you have it where the ink is coming off evenly, then you just need to set the bevel, which may take as few as 15 passes on the 4k? Until that happens, don't even worry about higher grits.

If you can get both sides looking like that top picture you are almost home free.

Just one quick point, if you set the bevel with tape on the spine then you must hone the razor throughout the entire progression with the spine taped. If you remove the tape and try to do the polishing then you will get a double bevel and sub-par edge.

[asbjorn]

The marker test on that one looks good. Sharpness and an even bevel are two seperate things though as I explained in the bevel tutorial. Assuming the razor is sharp and passes the marker test as your razor did, then you are ready to move on to the polishing stages or light pyramids.

Ah, read your post on uniformity and sharpnes.. So when the marker-ink goes away that will tell me that the edge is uniform, but that would still not guarantee an sharp edge. So I have to continue on the 4K until the edge is sharp enough?, now it pops hairs on my arm, but hht does not work at all. but the TPT and the TNT feels right. Will try further.

Thanks for the reminder about the article, I think it was easier to understand now.

[heavydutysg135]

Ah, read your post on uniformity and sharpnes.. So when the marker-ink goes away that will tell me that the edge is uniform, but that would still not guarantee an sharp edge. So I have to continue on the 4K until the edge is sharp enough?, now it pops hairs on my arm, but hht does not work at all. but the TPT and the TNT feels right. Will try further.

Thanks for the reminder about the article, I think it was easier to understand now.

Exactly right! It sounds like you are ready to at least try the polishing stages (8K). Not all razors will pass the HHT on all types of hair right off the Norton 4K (stropping can help) but all will feel really sharp. If it's poping hairs and easily shaving arm hair, and you are getting "smooth stickyness" and a little bit of bite on the TPT and TNT then you are likely sharp enough off the 4K. With a Norton you can try 15-25 passes on the 8K with light pressure, strop the razor really well, then perform a shave test.

David

[asbjorn]

The wapi turned out to be fine, even an sanguine I have given up on earlier turned out fine. That is, I'm going to shave with them tomorrow, but they are passing all tests except the hht, if they shave, it should be ok.
I'm waiting for Tony's pastedpaddle, so I will se what kind of finish I will get by that also.

But the Dovo is another story, this is pictures of its edge:

On the front side, it looks ok I guess:
19920

But the back side.. looks like it was warped, after some honing it get lots of wear on the heel, and it have an part there which does not get tuched by the hone.
19919

When I lay it flat on the hone, it looks good both ways, so I did not think it was an warp.. but after a bit honing, and seeing this, I looked a bit closer on it, and it looks a bit twisted, not much, but obviously enough..

I would guess it is difficult to do anything about this?, If I continue honing to eat the metal until the complete edge touches the hone, will that be ok?, or should I throw the towel?
I cant just send it to usa for some to hone it, then I just as well can buy a new one.. not Dovo again though.

[StephenKane]

I did the marker test and mine looks the same. It looks real good for most of the edge...clearly it's making contact. But the heel is iffy. I shaved with it and while it was 'better' and much more comfortable...it still isn't beating my better Dovo that was honed by Tony Millers service.....How do we "fix" a straight that has this slight warping?

Quick note: Dovo Solingen 5/8 hollow grind carbon steel. $60 bucks from Vintage Blade.

on a very small side note.....thanks for the help and str8t razor shaving rocks.

[Mike_ratliff]

Ah, read your post on uniformity and sharpnes.. So when the marker-ink goes away that will tell me that the edge is uniform, but that would still not guarantee an sharp edge. So I have to continue on the 4K until the edge is sharp enough?, now it pops hairs on my arm, but hht does not work at all. but the TPT and the TNT feels right. Will try further.

Thanks for the reminder about the article, I think it was easier to understand now.

From what you are describing, I would advise continuing to a higher grit.

not every razor will pass HHt even when fully shave ready.


If I continue honing to eat the metal until the complete edge touches the hone, will that be ok?,
Yes, the only other way would to use a narrow hone, and I really don't like doing that.

As for buying another razor, I have seen twisting and/or warping like that from every modern maker. It isn't just Dovo.
The wide part on the heel isn't going to get too much worse.
Are you using an X pattern on the hones?

[netsurfr]

I lapped it before the first attempt at honing. So 5 attempts ago. I will lap again before the next one. Again, I've tried the Pyrimid and I've tried a couple of processes that I've read in the forumn but the blade doesn't get sharp enough to shave with. At least I'm relatively sure that I shouldn't move away from the 4K until it can pass the test - I have a 12K for polishing but now that I'm learning more I'm not moving to that until the straight can pop hairs.

Lap your Norton before every honing session. It does not remove that much material and can make a huge difference.

[Limey]

Just one quick point, if you set the bevel with tape on the spine then you must hone the razor throughout the entire progression with the spine taped. If you remove the tape and try to do the polishing then you will get a double bevel and sub-par edge.

I like the double bevel. However, I wouldn't suggest you get there by removing tape. I believe it works best by adding a couple layers of tape. I picked up this method here (http://www.tzknives.com/twobevel.html).

[heavydutysg135]

I like the double bevel. However, I wouldn't suggest you get there by removing tape. I believe it works best by adding a couple layers of tape. I picked up this method here (http://www.tzknives.com/twobevel.html).

That microbevel method is different than what I am talking about (polishing at a higher angle rather than lower), I would recommend sticking with the basics at this point.

[asbjorn]

As for buying another razor, I have seen twisting and/or warping like that from every modern maker. It isn't just Dovo.
The wide part on the heel isn't going to get too much worse.
Are you using an X pattern on the hones?

No, not using X pattern, most of my hones are wide, so I don't have to, but maybe I should?

[gglockner]

Does your razor pass the thumb nail test? If not, you need to pass that test before moving on to the HHT.

Glen